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That Keto is so hot right now
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Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?16 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.15 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Unfortunately, this is kind of typical. Shading info to mean something that is not accurate for the keto cause. Not the first time its happened or been called out.
So, as I understand the answer, glycogen stores do not reach normal levels during keto? And it has not been demonstrated otherwise? Do I have that right?
10 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Forgive me. Please. For my huge, and possibly unforgivable, error... I wrote days instead of weeks or months.
The horror. The horror. The horror...
16 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Unfortunately, this is kind of typical. Shading info to mean something that is not accurate for the keto cause. Not the first time its happened or been called out.
So, as I understand the answer, glycogen stores do not reach normal levels during keto? And it has not been demonstrated otherwise? Do I have that right?
The do. It was shown in the FASTER study as linked above. Glycogen levels and recovery were identical between keto and higher carb endurance athletes.8 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Forgive me. Please. For my huge, and possibly unforgivable, error... I wrote days instead of weeks or months.
The horror. The horror. The horror...
As was said. You wouldn't be taking that difference on the light shoulder if you were expecting a package and it took a few months instead of a few days and they were like "whoops, hehe silly me."9 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Unfortunately, this is kind of typical. Shading info to mean something that is not accurate for the keto cause. Not the first time its happened or been called out.
So, as I understand the answer, glycogen stores do not reach normal levels during keto? And it has not been demonstrated otherwise? Do I have that right?
The do. It was shown in the FASTER study as linked above. Glycogen levels and recovery were identical between keto and higher carb endurance athletes.
After several months of consuming nearly twice the amount of carbohydrates usually recommended for keto.12 -
johnslater461 wrote: »Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Unfortunately, this is kind of typical. Shading info to mean something that is not accurate for the keto cause. Not the first time its happened or been called out.
So, as I understand the answer, glycogen stores do not reach normal levels during keto? And it has not been demonstrated otherwise? Do I have that right?
The do. It was shown in the FASTER study as linked above. Glycogen levels and recovery were identical between keto and higher carb endurance athletes.
After several months of consuming nearly twice the amount of carbohydrates usually recommended for keto.
What does that have to do with anything? They're athletes; they probably eat twice as much as someone simply using keto as a weight loss tool.
10% is pretty normal. So is 5%. Ketogenic diets are those that keep you in ketosis the vast majority of the time. For elite athletes, like those tested, they could probably eat upwards of 100g of carbs in a day, not even near exercise times, and still be in ketosis. As it is, if they ate 3000 kcal a day, that's a bit over 70g of carbs. The typical non-athletes keto'ers eat under 20-50g carbs. Net.
Ketogenic diets just require crabs be low enough for the individual to be in ketosis throughout most of the day. Its going to vary from person to person.13 -
stevencloser wrote: »Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Forgive me. Please. For my huge, and possibly unforgivable, error... I wrote days instead of weeks or months.
The horror. The horror. The horror...
As was said. You wouldn't be taking that difference on the light shoulder if you were expecting a package and it took a few months instead of a few days and they were like "whoops, hehe silly me."
Yes. Yes. I feel horrible about it. My error could impact so many.
I'm off to chase goal posts.12 -
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.15
-
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
If you're in a calorie deficit, you're going to burn fat even if your diet is high or moderate carbohydrate. Keto isn't required to burn stored body fat.18 -
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
Which will cause you to burn more dietary fat, not more body fat. Burning body fat requires a calorie deficit, keto or not.12 -
stevencloser wrote: »Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Forgive me. Please. For my huge, and possibly unforgivable, error... I wrote days instead of weeks or months.
The horror. The horror. The horror...
As was said. You wouldn't be taking that difference on the light shoulder if you were expecting a package and it took a few months instead of a few days and they were like "whoops, hehe silly me."
Yes. Yes. I feel horrible about it. My error could impact so many.
I'm off to chase goal posts.
You're in the debate section, so if I was you I wouldn't be so surprised that you are challenged when you make a statement that isn't factually correct. The issue that I have, is there seem to be a lot of those factually incorrect statements made by the keto crowd to support their narrative. Keto can be a decent tool to lose weight in a caloric deficit. Its pretty much as simple as that. It definitely isn't for me, because I like carbs and the fuel they provide for my workouts, but if keto works for you then that's fantastic. To be clear though, the reason it works for some is because of the caloric deficit, and not some secret formula that magically appears and supersedes CICO.19 -
Oh please. There was a quote posted suggesting that fat adaptation and glycogen homeostasis may take several months. I found it amusing because my use of "suggested" and "may" is generally not exact enough for some posters around here. Yet now it is,johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?
Don't be silly.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.
Okay? Then I should not have apologized for not being exact enough?
Not sure what you want here except to enjoy some gloating. Rub a little dirt into it?
If you are going to apologize for anything, then apologize for being wrong instead of implying that you were just a bit off. Saying you were not exact enough gives the impression that you were somewhere in the same ballpark as the correct answer which you were not.
Forgive me. Please. For my huge, and possibly unforgivable, error... I wrote days instead of weeks or months.
The horror. The horror. The horror...
And yet you wonder why people tend to chime in on keto threads, suggesting that it isn't as magical as some claim it to be... you say you don't know why people have an impression that keto is magical when no one claims otherwise, yet you admit here that you've overstated one of the potential positive benefits and now want to flippantly dismiss the error now that people have called you out on the claim?14 -
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
Substrate utilization is largely irrelevant to weight loss. And fat mobilization goes up because dietary fat intake goes up.
You lose weight by consuming less calories than you expend. Period13 -
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
mmmmm....just no. If the keto community wonders why they are not always respected, it's answers like this one that do not help their cause.11 -
. . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
mmmmm....just no. If the keto community wonders why they are not always respected, it's answers like this one that do not help their cause.
Why I no longer hang out in LCHF/keto forums or take sides with keto evangelists...the lack of thought (blindsighted) & extreme one sidedness along with constant cherry picking low level evidence (often anecdotal/non applicable/flawed studies/etc.) from "Dr. Google" does not deserve my respect (nor should it from anyone else). Almost as bad as raw vegans
17 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: ». . . . to lose weight. I want to burn stored fat rather than quick energy carbs. I want to keep my body in this state as long as possible. I also want to eat more healthy fats.
mmmmm....just no. If the keto community wonders why they are not always respected, it's answers like this one that do not help their cause.
Why I no longer hang out in LCHF/keto forums or take sides with keto evangelists...the lack of thought (blindsighted) & extreme one sidedness along with constant cherry picking low level evidence (often anecdotal/non applicable/flawed studies/etc.) from "Dr. Google" does not deserve my respect (nor should it from anyone else). Almost as bad as raw vegans
I find your posts so refreshing... it reinforces that this is a valid choice for a lot of people and that if done with the right realistic mindset, there is nothing really to dispute or debate... I don’t think the keto followers who are so passionate about it even realize the evangelical nature of their posts. As a sales pitch - I would far rather hear from someone who isn’t afraid to talk to me about the pros and the cons of a choice rather than only presenting the positives, and overinflating the benefits... it just puts a bad taste in my mouth when someone is clearly trying to only focus on things they think will attract an individual without presenting balanced information. And from a recruiting stand point, if you’re trying to convince more people to adopt a keto lifestyle, wouldn’t you prefer to have more of a long term success rate in those who do decide this is the approach for them, rather than having people be dissuaded when they don’t reap the many mythical benefits that were initially advertised? I guess the commission checks don’t have to be returned if someone asks for a full refund...15 -
I've been doing 4 Hour Body since 2012, and the only times I've failed is when I drink too much alcohol. Pretty cool, I got to meet Tim Ferriss on public transit in SF and personally thanked him for helping me lose 100 pounds. I don't have the patience for measuring much, and having a full cheat day each week helps me stick to it on a psychological level. Every body is different, so I say kudos to doing whatever works for each individual person!
7 -
@jetsetcharm thank you so much for your post and bringing Tim Ferriss into my life. It is these positive tidbits from time to time that makes reading these forms worth while for my own personal development. I Googled 4 Hour Body and so far have watched the below.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=RHBX0HGStWQ
Four years ago at the age of 63 it became clear I did not have long to live at the rate my health was failing. Google lead me to My Fitness Pal forums and the rest is history. Now at 67 my health and health markers are better than 30 years ago and unlike some of my friends I am thinking about the next 40-50 years of living instead of focusing a near term death.
Tim makes sense to me because through a lot of mistakes I know what he is saying is true and wish I could have learned much of what I now know at a younger age.
By the time I found MFP I knew health had more to do with biology than math (measuring) and have worked to learn the less common denominator to healthy living. I agree finding our own way to live our own lives is an important first step.
Thanks again for letting us know about Tim Ferriss and I am sure meeting him in person was awesome for the both of you. Best of continued success.
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