Vegan/vegetarian! PLEASE READ AND RESPOND!

This is my issue. There are not "different levels of veganism" or different definitions of vegetarian. If you are vegetarian, you do not eat food that includes any part of a dead animal. If you are vegan, you do not eat anything that contains an animal product.

If you eat those things, then you maybe eat a "mostly" vegetarian or vegan diet, but you are not a vegetarian or a vegan. They have very specific definitions.

If you aren't going to worry about gelatin, then you aren't a vegetarian. If you're going to eat honey and dairy, you're not a vegan.

It's your choice how and what you eat and for what reasons, but I feel incredibly insulted as a vegetarian who makes an effort to actually eat a vegetarian diet when someone claims to be vegetarian even though that person eats fish or gelatin or things like that.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You just gave YOUR definition of a "dietary vegetarian". Other people would argue that vegetarianism isn't just about diet. A "TRUE" vegan/vegetarian would be living a certain lifestyle, not just making certain dietary choices. What if someone eats a vegetarian diet but wears leather? What if it was leather they owned before they became vegan? Does that make a difference? To some it would and to some it wouldn't

For some people, the number of "steps" away from a living animal a product is determines if it is acceptable or not. Meat isn't acceptable because it is only one "step" away from a living creature. A miniscule amount of gelatin in film may be acceptable though because it is several "steps" removed from having been a living creature.

And there are vegetarians that have other concerns as well as animal rights and who weigh their choices based on what they think is best. For example, if you have a choice between a vegetable soup made with whole ingredients but with chicken flavor in the broth or a highly processed GMO soy based veggie burger, which is the "better" choice? You won't get all vegetarians to agree on that. Or is it better to buy a product (for example, shoes) that has some components of animal origin, or to choose a non-animal based product made with petroleum derivatives? Which is "better"? Again, you won't be able to get all vegetarians to agree.

Vegetarianism and veganism are NOT cut and dried. If they were, all vegetarians/vegans would make exactly the same choices.

OK. Well, it's not MY definition:

veg·e·tar·i·an   /ˌvɛdʒɪˈtɛəriən/ Show Spelled[vej-i-tair-ee-uhn] Show IPA
noun
a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals, as eggs or cheese, but subsists on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grain, etc.

ve·gan   /ˈvigən/ Show Spelled[vee-guhn] Show IPA
noun
a vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet.

And, clearly, if you won't eat meat, you shouldn't be wearing it, either. I would think that goes without saying.

Even before I was vegetarian, I had a friend who was one of those obnoxious, holier-than-thou, in-your-face vegetarians. But she loved Birkenstocks (which are made out of leather). I always found that quite amusing and ridiculous. How serious are you about it if you're wearing something you won't eat?

Like someone above said: What you eat, wear, whatever if your own business. My daughter and boyfriend eat meat. My friends eat it. I don't care. But why call yourself a vegetarian if you eat meat or wear leather? Why call yourself vegan if you don't follow the diet/lifestyle? Because you think it makes you sound interesting? That's the only reason I can think of. Or else you really just don't understand it.

It takes a lot of work, asking the right questions, reading labels, etc., to do this right. When someone who doesn't do those things or eats those things uses the label, it diminishes the efforts of those of us who do.

But it's not about making other people feel badly. It's insulting to ME that they consider that vegetarian. It just isn't.

I do get you and agree about the "processed on equipment" part. You aren't contributing to anything by that. That's equivalent to people who won't eat off a plate that had meat on it at some point or kiss their SO after he or she ate meat. That's extreme.

But when people (whatever they eat or don't) think fish aren't animals, that bugs me a lot. It has a face and a nervous system, it's an animal.

Maybe it's the poor logic that bugs me more than anything else. But I think there's a huge difference between eating something that touched a surface that touched meat or dairy and eating something that contains meat or dairy (if you're vegan for the dairy part).

Again, there's a huge difference TO YOU. But for some vegetarians getting someone else's meat juices on their veggie burger is essentially the same thing as being force fed a marhmallow made with gelatin, or soup that contains "natural flavor" that was made from chicken. And to others, the meat juices on that plate or grill would be WORSE because the meat juices came directly from a piece of flesh while the "natural flavor" is more processed and therefore farther removed from an actual animal.

And if you are buying foods that are processed on equipment that also processes meat or dairy, you ARE contributing to something. You are supporting a business that is not vegetarian/vegan. Supporting completely veg companies rather than companies that are not veg matters to some vegans/vegetarians.

By the way, I'm not arguing about whether you personally are veg or not. It honestly doesn't matter to me what your definition is. I'm only arguing that your definition does not fit ALL vegetarians and that there ARE different "levels" of vegetariansms and veganism. You've more or less admitted that right here by saying that some forms of vegetarianism are "extreme". Those "extreme" vegetarians would probably tell you you aren't vegetarian enough. lol

Became vegan almost a month ago and I've never even tried to be vegetarian, it was very easy to just stop eating meat, eggs, dairy, gluten, honey etc.

My original reason was more so for me, not to save the animals or the environmental destruction as I read that it's hard for your body to digest meat and that you would feel incredible once it and dairy is out of your system.

I haven't noticed a single difference so right now, I am not pro-vegan although I am still acting like it for the time being, why? I have no idea.

I find this to be an interesting thread, and just thought I'd throw in some interesting info...

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/stickaforkinit/2011/03/five_things_youd_think_would_b.php

According to this article, if you are going PURE VEGAN, you'd better be prepared to "bite the bullet" for any surgery you have, because general anesthesia can't be done without an egg product...

Also, watch out for "Heart Healthy" Orange juice, MIGHT be enriched with fish oils to get those fabulously healthy Omega 3's.

It also warns against some brands of dry-roasted peanuts, non-dairy creamers, and in some churches the holy communion is not vegan.

It's all very interesting...

:drinker:

Ice

By the way - no jelly?? Are you referring to the sugar in jelly that wouldn't be vegan or something else?

actually...being a vegan means consuming no product that comes from an animal. most jelly has collagen (inside of animal skin/bone). but I'm not going to be that extreme!

thanks for the input everyone! it was very helpful!

I do know that's what it means, though within the vegan community there is debate about whether or not eating things like honey is acceptable. I do not eat non-vegan cane sugar as it is processed using bone char, but I personally do not find that extreme or a hindrance in how I choose to eat because I try to avoid cane sugar most of the time even when it is vegan. There’s also debate in the vegan community about whether the processing matters or not. In my opinion, if I can avoid it, I will. Unfortunately, many things in our daily lives have involved animal products in their production at some point, so I just do what I can.

I guess it has been so long since I have bought conventional jelly that I didn't even know that was in there. I only buy jam that is sweetened with fruit juice and uses fruit pectin to jell (ingredients: real fruit, apple or grape juice concentrate, fruit pectin). Hence, my first thought being cane sugar. Now I’ll have to look into that collagen thing since I’ve never heard of that before, gives me something new to look into!

I find this to be an interesting thread, and just thought I'd throw in some interesting info...

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/stickaforkinit/2011/03/five_things_youd_think_would_b.php

According to this article, if you are going PURE VEGAN, you'd better be prepared to "bite the bullet" for any surgery you have, because general anesthesia can't be done without an egg product...

Also, watch out for "Heart Healthy" Orange juice, MIGHT be enriched with fish oils to get those fabulously healthy Omega 3's.

It also warns against some brands of dry-roasted peanuts, non-dairy creamers, and in some churches the holy communion is not vegan.

It's all very interesting...

:drinker:

Ice

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about! These arguments about what is and is not vegetarian/vegan enough can get crazy. Should I walk around with a broom so I can gently sweep bugs and critters out of my path? Should I get rid of my television because it contributes to the slaughter of animals by showing commercials for restaurants? Should I allow the doctor to give me a shot because it might have been made with eggs or cultured in gelatin? Can I still call myself vegan if I swallowed a bug while riding my bike? I've really heard questions like these and people actually worry about this kind of stuff.

Who gets to decide where the line is? How extreme is too extreme? I think everyone who wants to use the label of vegetarian or vegan has to decide where that line is for themselves and choose which definition they will follow. I think the vast majority of people would agree that if you eat red meat on a regular basis you aren't a vegetarian. Beyond that, there is not and never will be a concensus, no matter how much people want to argue in favor of the definition they choose to use. That's why we now have so many definitions for vegetarianism...because someone decided that someone else was not vegetarian enough. I own vegetarian cookbooks that are over 100 years old that debate these same issues, especially the fish and insect issues. We still haven't settled them. And the debate has just become more complicated since then because of the widespread use of animal by products.

After years of trying to figure out which definition was "right", I finally came to the conclusion that maybe vegetarianism and veganism are objectives we can strive for but can't completely achieve. It's highly likely that you will someday eat something, wear something, or use something that contains animal products. It's impossible to remove every miniscule little trace of living creatures from our lives. If you try, you'll drive yourself and everyone around you nuts. LOL You have to decide for yourself where the line that you won't cross is and not worry about where other people draw their lines.

I've also come to firmly believe that this idea that there is a "right" (and therefore a "wrong") way to be vegetarian turns more people off of eating a more plant-centered diet than anything else. People don't want to be scrutinized and judged (and found lacking no matter what they do), so they loudly announce their intent to remain a "carnivore" just so they don't have to deal with other people thinking they might be one of those crazy vegetarians. If vegetarians of ALL persuasions would spend more time sharing the JOYS of plant based foods and quit trying to convert non-veggies while arguing with fellow vegetarians about definitions, I think veg foods would be more commonplace choices.

You have to decide for yourself where the line that you won't cross is and not worry about where other people draw their lines.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it's not about making other people feel badly. It's insulting to ME that they consider that vegetarian. It just isn't.

I do get you and agree about the "processed on equipment" part. You aren't contributing to anything by that. That's equivalent to people who won't eat off a plate that had meat on it at some point or kiss their SO after he or she ate meat. That's extreme.

But when people (whatever they eat or don't) think fish aren't animals, that bugs me a lot. It has a face and a nervous system, it's an animal.

Maybe it's the poor logic that bugs me more than anything else. But I think there's a huge difference between eating something that touched a surface that touched meat or dairy and eating something that contains meat or dairy (if you're vegan for the dairy part).

Agree. Also, in response to some other posts, there are dietary vegans and there are lifestyle vegans. However, eating vegan is pretty clear - no animals products. While some vegans might eat honey (though I disagree with this), if a store was selling a product labeled vegan, if there was honey that would be incorrectly labeled. While some might choose to eat honey, that is not in the overall accepted definition. If a restaurant told me something was vegetarian, but it had chicken stock, that would be incorrect and I would consider that false advertising. So, while people can label themselves whatever they like, there are accepted definitions of the general terms vegan and vegetarian, and within those definitions people vary in their own choices. I don’t really care how people choose to label themselves, what bothers me is when it affects me. I don’t want confusion if I’m eating out because some people say they are vegan but then eat stuff with gelatin in it so then the restaurant is like sure, this is vegan, when it’s not, or if I was a vegetarian someone who eats fish calls themselves vegetarian instead of pescetarian and creates confusion.

i dont understand why anyone would want to be a vegitarian? i love meat!!!! your supposed to eat meat... ugh... your choice

Really? You've got a case of the ignorant "supposed-too's" as a grown adult? I suggest you seek a different thread since the interests here don't align with your own.

Became vegan almost a month ago and I've never even tried to be vegetarian, it was very easy to just stop eating meat, eggs, dairy, gluten, honey etc.

My original reason was more so for me, not to save the animals or the environmental destruction as I read that it's hard for your body to digest meat and that you would feel incredible once it and dairy is out of your system.

I haven't noticed a single difference so right now, I am not pro-vegan although I am still acting like it for the time being, why? I have no idea.

I know many people what have experienced these effects, but I think that has to do with two things: what you are eating instead, and your state of mind about it all. I also know many people who became vegan for health reasons, but then learned more about environmental and animal welfare issues and came to embrace those as well. It's individual. I personally feel lighter, more clear-headed, and spiritually calm. As Franz Kafka said, "Now I can look at you in peace; I don't eat you anymore." It makes me feel more connected to the world. But it definitely won't be the same for everyone.

While I agree that the definitions can get too nit-picky, I think we have to draw the line somewhere. When people go around calling themselves vegetarians but eating fish, that's when actual vegetarians get served fish at a wedding or whatever because "It's not meat, right?" While I was still eating fish I simply explained that I eat mostly vegetarian, but hadn't stopped fish yet. It doesn't need a lengthy explanation.

All that said, to the OP, a book on veganism you might enjoy is "Skinny *****." As the title implies, the authors employ a tough love approach so it's not for those with thin skin.

ETA: The title got censored, the word starts with a B

i dont understand why anyone would want to be a vegitarian? i love meat!!!! your supposed to eat meat... ugh... your choice

That is your opinion. I respect your opinion. I also, however, believe that you could have said that with more finesse so as to not insult everyone who does make that life choice. Personally, I don't like meat: the taste, the texture, and the fact that it is dead animal carcass.

Maybe you could educate yourself on the lifestyle so as to better understand (not necessarily to convert you). It's your choice and your body. I don't think you should call our lifestyles stupid since none of us have called yours such when like you said: it's our choice.

Thanks.

im going to eat meat everyday unitl the day i die... if ive upset anyone for MY opinion... then honestly ya need to get over it. everyone has opinions... dont need to cry about it. meat is tasty to me and the whole dead animals thing... there gonna die anyway so might as well make use of it. im not sorry for stating my views... dont like them? dont read them

I'm something close to pescetarian, only because I don't like preparing any meat but fish. It's easier than anything else and I like the taste. If you're eating animal products like dairy, eggs, or even fish (lacto-, ovo- vegetarian or pescetarian), you are at very low risk of nutrient deficiencies. If you are a strict vegetarian, you need to plan more carefully, and if you're vegan, you'll definitely need to track micronutrients along with macronutrients. Many vegan products are now supplemented with vitamin B12 so it's not as much of a concern as it was for vegans in the past. Don't make the mistake of thinking that veggies/vegans are automatically healthier than omnivores. As veganbaum stated, a junk food veggie/vegan will not be eating more nutritiously than an omnivore eating junk food.

Hey super interesting topic. I am a cook for a summer camp and an middle school. One of my camp councilers is a Vegan, and one is a vegitarian. I was super curious aboul the honey/ eggs for my vegitarian guy. I have a small chicken flock in my back yard. Free range. They are pets and sit on our laps at the picnic table, they are loved and kept even after they stop layin eggs NEVER eaten (who could eat their pet?) ? He is a major animal rights guy and i dont want to "Ruffle any feathers" I have 3 meals a day i cook for him and i know he dosnt eat eggs because of the conditions on farms but he will eat cheese/milk could i suggest bringing in some of my ladies eggs?