16 hour fast with ketogenic diet works!!!!!!!!!!! Great combo
Replies
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Losinandmovin wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
No you haven't. Your TDEE is the total number of calories you burn in a day. If you are losing 1 to 2 lbs a week, then you are eating within 500 to 1000 calories short of your TDEE.
OP, I'd be cautious about eating that low calories, especially long term. If you value your muscles, you don't want to go overly aggressive in your diet and make sure you have adequate protein and resistance training to support those goals.
Actually, this isn't true. I am NOT eating 500-1000 calories short of my TDEE and I lose 1-3# a week on keto. CICO is not a thing on the ketogenic diet. I go over my TDEE every single day and continue to lose. We don't begin burning our muscles if we keep our protein moderate and fat high.
Sorry, but you are completely wrong and do not have an understanding of what CICO is. CICO refers to the energy balance equation. The single most important aspect on weight loss, maintenance and gain. If you want to understand the scientific mechanisms behind it, I'd recommend the below. We all obey by these rules. If you do not believe in CICO, I'd challenge you to eat 5000 calories over an extend period of time to see what happens when your body weight.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/989
Keto works for some people, because it does a few things: 1. people will inherently increase protein consumption ad libitum, 2. ketones may have a suppression effect on an individual, or 3. it may address medical conditions (IR, Diabetes, etc..) which will enable greater compliance.
Also, if you don't want to lose muscle, than you need adequate protein, which is roughly 1.5 - 2.2g/kg of weight and incorporate resistance training. And that might be higher on keto since carbs are muscle sparring.
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/apnm-2015-0549
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KombuchaKat wrote: »acorsaut89 wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
No you haven't. Your TDEE is the total number of calories you burn in a day. If you are losing 1 to 2 lbs a week, then you are eating within 500 to 1000 calories short of your TDEE.
OP, I'd be cautious about eating that low calories, especially long term. If you value your muscles, you don't want to go overly aggressive in your diet and make sure you have adequate protein and resistance training to support those goals.
Actually, this isn't true. I am NOT eating 500-1000 calories short of my TDEE and I lose 1-3# a week on keto. CICO is not a thing on the ketogenic diet. I go over my TDEE every single day and continue to lose. We don't begin burning our muscles if we keep our protein moderate and fat high.
CICO is a thing of life, full stop. Regardless of which "diet" or way of eating you follow, you have to consume less than you burn in order to lose -- that's how weight loss works. There's no way you're going over your TDEE and still losing unless 1) you're eating less than you think or 2) you're burning more than you think. You are correct that with adequate protein consumption you won't burn your muscle mass, but you can't lose if you're eating more than you burn. It's that simple.
Perhaps that is true but long term calorie restriction day in and day out may not work for everyone, in fact since most people re-gain weight on the traditional daily calorie deficit if fasting helps make it more comfortable and manageable I do not see the problem. It was not until recently that we had a serious obesity problem, and it was not until recently that people were constantly surrounded by food and told they had to eat all the time, coincidence? Feast then famine is how we adapted. Most of the naturally thin people I know eat then they are hungry, not when they are supposed to, and thus intermittent fast all the time without even trying. Fasting can help you get control of your hunger signals and realize that you aren't going to die if you don't eat. It turns on genes that promote cellular repair and longevity so the benefits are not just weight loss.
Fasting has different effects on different people. I tried 16:8 fasting for several months. I was always starving and struggled to control urges. I do much better eating 3 large meals a day.
Regardless of the dietary method or diet you follow, 80 to 90% will regain the weight. It's just how it works.
I like 16:8, it fits well with the way I like to eat. I'm not usually that hungry in the mornings and I enjoy big dinners. There's nothing magical about it as far as weight loss and I don't make Herculean efforts to strictly adhere to it, but most of the time it works great for me as far as satiety/adherence. I don't attribute any other magick or wizardry to it, you still need a caloric deficit to lose weight.
5:2 is a complete non-starter for me - no way I'm eating 500 calories a day twice a week. Especially since there are no scientifically proven benefits to it. Perhaps it works for some people and they can deal with the 500 calorie days, but I'm not one of them.3 -
KombuchaKat wrote: »acorsaut89 wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
No you haven't. Your TDEE is the total number of calories you burn in a day. If you are losing 1 to 2 lbs a week, then you are eating within 500 to 1000 calories short of your TDEE.
OP, I'd be cautious about eating that low calories, especially long term. If you value your muscles, you don't want to go overly aggressive in your diet and make sure you have adequate protein and resistance training to support those goals.
Actually, this isn't true. I am NOT eating 500-1000 calories short of my TDEE and I lose 1-3# a week on keto. CICO is not a thing on the ketogenic diet. I go over my TDEE every single day and continue to lose. We don't begin burning our muscles if we keep our protein moderate and fat high.
CICO is a thing of life, full stop. Regardless of which "diet" or way of eating you follow, you have to consume less than you burn in order to lose -- that's how weight loss works. There's no way you're going over your TDEE and still losing unless 1) you're eating less than you think or 2) you're burning more than you think. You are correct that with adequate protein consumption you won't burn your muscle mass, but you can't lose if you're eating more than you burn. It's that simple.
Perhaps that is true but long term calorie restriction day in and day out may not work for everyone, in fact since most people re-gain weight on the traditional daily calorie deficit if fasting helps make it more comfortable and manageable I do not see the problem. It was not until recently that we had a serious obesity problem, and it was not until recently that people were constantly surrounded by food and told they had to eat all the time, coincidence? Feast then famine is how we adapted. Most of the naturally thin people I know eat then they are hungry, not when they are supposed to, and thus intermittent fast all the time without even trying. Fasting can help you get control of your hunger signals and realize that you aren't going to die if you don't eat. It turns on genes that promote cellular repair and longevity so the benefits are not just weight loss.
No one in this thread is saying IF doesn't work or is a problem. They are just saying it's not magic and doesn't have the same affect on everyone. You still need to be in a calorie deficit, whether you are eating Keto or IF or both or neither. For some people, eating Keto or IF will make it easier for them to stay at the right calorie level, possibly without even trying. If that applies to you, then that's great.
The reply you quoted was responding to someone who said they were losing weight while eating over their TDEE, which would mean they were defying the laws of physics and should be studied in a lab. She wasn't arguing with IF or Keto being useful for some people.2 -
welcome aboard the keto train, for those saying about cico and such it is true that calorie deficit is what matters to lose weight BUT the keto diet greatest advantage is the hunger control: being on keto and being consistent with calorie intake is much more easier than eating carbs and fats gets you satiated easily.
Of course down the line is much better to refeed and break the diet once in a while.4 -
dimaslopes wrote: »welcome aboard the keto train, for those saying about cico and such it is true that calorie deficit is what matters to lose weight BUT the keto diet greatest advantage is the hunger control: being on keto and being consistent with calorie intake is much more easier than eating carbs and fats gets you satiated easily.
Of course down the line is much better to refeed and break the diet once in a while.
From and individualistic standpoint, that may be true for you but it certainly isn't universal. Proteins and fiber are the most satiating... carbs and fats differ. Fats don't satiate me at all. I lost and have kept off 50 lbs going higher protein and moderate to high carb. It's the only method that satiates me.
Also, you can't ignore the healthiest and longest living nations of the world, who are very high carb (70 to 80%), very low meat.5 -
If it's easier to stay within calories by skipping breakfast and a late night snack, theres no reason to argue about it. Quibbling about whether he lost it because of the fasting or because he was eating less is just silly.
Yay for losing the weight and sticking with your plan!!!
Just be careful about eating to little. It can easily backfire by making you feel sick, and then trying to gain back calories by taking energy from organs and muscles instead of fat.
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dimaslopes wrote: »welcome aboard the keto train, for those saying about cico and such it is true that calorie deficit is what matters to lose weight BUT the keto diet greatest advantage is the hunger control: being on keto and being consistent with calorie intake is much more easier than eating carbs and fats gets you satiated easily.
Of course down the line is much better to refeed and break the diet once in a while.
For some people.
I am not satiated by fats. The foods I easily overeat are nuts, cheese, roasted chicken with the skin, full fat dairy. I have no trouble eating a reasonable serving of oatmeal, or rice, or even chocolate, and tend to find carbs with a bit of protein really filling. Trying to do low carb was a nightmare for me, I was constantly hungry.
For people who are more satiated by fats, yes doing keto or less restrictive low carb will enjoy better hunger control.1 -
dimaslopes wrote: »welcome aboard the keto train, for those saying about cico and such it is true that calorie deficit is what matters to lose weight BUT the keto diet greatest advantage is the hunger control: being on keto and being consistent with calorie intake is much more easier than eating carbs and fats gets you satiated easily.
Of course down the line is much better to refeed and break the diet once in a while.
the hunger control on keto works for YOU. it doesnt work that way for everyone and trust me I have tried it. its easier for me to eat carbs and protein to be satiated. Im not satiated on fat and cant do high fat because my body doesnt process it properly the same way it does in others.2 -
I'm happy you've found the way that works for you. Cheers to your weight loss. X0
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If it's easier to stay within calories by skipping breakfast and a late night snack, theres no reason to argue about it. Quibbling about whether he lost it because of the fasting or because he was eating less is just silly.
The title of his post implied that his weight loss success was the direct result of fasting and keto. People are pointing out that his success was the direct result of the calorie deficit, which may have been easier for him to achieve personally because of his style of eating. The distinction is important to make, otherwise casual lurkers will be led to believe if they eat on a certain schedule, or a keto diet, that they can eat all they want and the weight will just magically fall off. None of this detracts from his success, however.
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Jigglypuff00 wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
That isn't what the evidence shows (maybe you are eating less than you think) That said you will prob lose more at first due to depleted glycogen which retains water. so the big loss up front isn't fat loss, it is water weight.
So the 27 lbs I lost in the first 2 months was just water weight?
Some of it certainly was. You will probably get an idea of how much if and when you choose to transition off of keto. You will replenish your glycogen stores, and since each gram of glycogen holds 3g of water, your weight will spike. You won't have gained any fat back, but your initial water weight loss will have evened out. This is why many get discouraged when stopping or "cheating" on keto. They see a big spike on the scale and draw the conclusion that eating carbs makes you fat, but it's just the water weight balancing out.1 -
dimaslopes wrote: »welcome aboard the keto train, for those saying about cico and such it is true that calorie deficit is what matters to lose weight BUT the keto diet greatest advantage is the hunger control: being on keto and being consistent with calorie intake is much more easier than eating carbs and fats gets you satiated easily.
Of course down the line is much better to refeed and break the diet once in a while.
From and individualistic standpoint, that may be true for you but it certainly isn't universal. Proteins and fiber are the most satiating... carbs and fats differ. Fats don't satiate me at all. I lost and have kept off 50 lbs going higher protein and moderate to high carb. It's the only method that satiates me.
Also, you can't ignore the healthiest and longest living nations of the world, who are very high carb (70 to 80%), very low meat.
I think the main struggle for everyone is how fast you get adapted to a ketogenic diet, it took me 3 weeks slowly getting there through a paleo diet. the "magic" only appears after your brain and gut stops screaming for sugar/carbs . You can't expect to get into ketosis through week 1.
I need to point out that my diet is 5~8% carbs, 30% protein and the reamaining from fats - and good fat by the way. by my accounting, it i eat around 1 to 1.2g of protein per day this and much of this protein come from sources that are not meat. i also eat a lot of carbs, but all them with low glicemic index and load (carbs that are mostly dietary fiber) so it is a lot of green that i eat everyday. feel free to check my diary (lots of things in portuguese sorry). In a sense i eat a lot of "green" carbs and not so much meat, dunno why did you say that "fact" in the end.
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ketofire51 wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
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I'll have to agree. Jason Fung is amazing. Insulin blocks your body 's ability to burn fat. Fasting keeps insulin low as well as allows your glucose to be deleted.12
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88perrotte wrote: »I'll have to agree. Jason Fung is amazing. Insulin blocks your body 's ability to burn fat. Fasting keeps insulin low as well as allows your glucose to be deleted.
nope your body can convert protein into glucose if needed. insulin doesnt block your bodys ability to burn fat. fat is burned in a deficit of calories.I lost fat and weight even when I wasnt fasting. fung has been debunked. keto has been proven to not be any better for weight loss or any faster than other ways of eating out there.1 -
Of course fasting keeps insulin low - temporarily.
Otherwise we would all go into coma when we did not eat for a while - the way diabetics can if they take their insulin and do not eat.
In a healthy person insulin is released in response to glucose in the blood stream - which gets there via food.
So of course it is kept low if there is no food causing the blood sugar to rise - blood sugar rise, insulin production, constant balance.
That is just simple normal physiology - doesn't mean fasting helps with weight loss - unless one in total eats less than they burn,........ like all methods.2 -
88perrotte wrote: »I'll have to agree. Jason Fung is amazing. Insulin blocks your body 's ability to burn fat. Fasting keeps insulin low as well as allows your glucose to be deleted.
Fung is a laughingstock and his (and Taubes') theories about insulin and obesity have been shot down in flames by actual scientific research (as opposed to the woo he spouts).
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/26861435 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Your weight loss has less to do with fasting and keto, and more to do with restricting your calories too much. You would lose the same amount of weight by eating meals across the whole day, and eating more carbs.
Losing weight fast is not necessarily a good thing - you don't mention how long it has taken for you to lose 55lbs?
Science disagrees with you. We have a world of obesity, due to small carby meals that bounce our insulin up and down - leaving us hungry and tired.
You also are neglecting the detrimental effects of a higher carb diet on our long term health. Of course, I’m referencing people like Dr Fung versus bro science.
Yes, I’m coming off harsh, but I prefer to reference cutting edge doctors like Jason Fung versus the food pyramid of disease.
I read the “studies” above and sorta laugh at the hysteria that fasting and keto causes in certain neighborhoods on the web.
Nothing else has worked for me, call my experience irrelevant, doesn’t matter.
Humans weren’t built to eat carby junk and snack all day. That is evolutionary fact.
And no, a calorie isn’t a calorie. Refined sugar robs us of nutrients and causes catastrophic damage to our circulatory system. Any food that consists of empty calories falls under this category. These food products are thieves.
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Jigglypuff00 wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
That isn't what the evidence shows (maybe you are eating less than you think) That said you will prob lose more at first due to depleted glycogen which retains water. so the big loss up front isn't fat loss, it is water weight.
So the 27 lbs I lost in the first 2 months was just water weight?
Some of it certainly was. You will probably get an idea of how much if and when you choose to transition off of keto. You will replenish your glycogen stores, and since each gram of glycogen holds 3g of water, your weight will spike. You won't have gained any fat back, but your initial water weight loss will have evened out. This is why many get discouraged when stopping or "cheating" on keto. They see a big spike on the scale and draw the conclusion that eating carbs makes you fat, but it's just the water weight balancing out.
Keeping that water weight off is important. It reduces inflammation. Helps treat a variety of inflammation linked diseases.
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EstrangedTiger wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Your weight loss has less to do with fasting and keto, and more to do with restricting your calories too much. You would lose the same amount of weight by eating meals across the whole day, and eating more carbs.
Losing weight fast is not necessarily a good thing - you don't mention how long it has taken for you to lose 55lbs?
Science disagrees with you. We have a world of obesity, due to small carby meals that bounce our insulin up and down - leaving us hungry and tired.
You also are neglecting the detrimental effects of a higher carb diet on our long term health. Of course, I’m referencing people like Dr Fung versus bro science.
Yes, I’m coming off harsh, but I prefer to reference cutting edge doctors like Jason Fung versus the food pyramid of disease.
I read the “studies” above and sorta laugh at the hysteria that fasting and keto causes in certain neighborhoods on the web.
Nothing else has worked for me, call my experience irrelevant, doesn’t matter.
Humans weren’t built to eat carby junk and snack all day. That is evolutionary fact.
And no, a calorie isn’t a calorie. Refined sugar robs us of nutrients and causes catastrophic damage to our circulatory system. Any food that consists of empty calories falls under this category. These food products are thieves.
You don't sound like you're being harsh. Just brainwashed by Dr Fung.6 -
EstrangedTiger wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Your weight loss has less to do with fasting and keto, and more to do with restricting your calories too much. You would lose the same amount of weight by eating meals across the whole day, and eating more carbs.
Losing weight fast is not necessarily a good thing - you don't mention how long it has taken for you to lose 55lbs?
Science disagrees with you. We have a world of obesity, due to small carby meals that bounce our insulin up and down - leaving us hungry and tired.
You also are neglecting the detrimental effects of a higher carb diet on our long term health. Of course, I’m referencing people like Dr Fung versus bro science.
Yes, I’m coming off harsh, but I prefer to reference cutting edge doctors like Jason Fung versus the food pyramid of disease.
I read the “studies” above and sorta laugh at the hysteria that fasting and keto causes in certain neighborhoods on the web.
Nothing else has worked for me, call my experience irrelevant, doesn’t matter.
Humans weren’t built to eat carby junk and snack all day. That is evolutionary fact.
And no, a calorie isn’t a calorie. Refined sugar robs us of nutrients and causes catastrophic damage to our circulatory system. Any food that consists of empty calories falls under this category. These food products are thieves.
You do realize that all the healthiest and longest living nations in the world are very high carb, right? A calorie is definitely a calorie but not all foods have the same impact on the body. A diet high in fiber and lean proteins will yield faster weight loss and greater compliance than other dietings... Why because both of those are higly correlated to compliance and fullness.
And yes, having a lot of junky carbs is bad, but not less bad than processed and fried fats. This doesn't even get into the discussion that aome of the most nutrient dense foods are carbs (fruits, veggies, legumes, oats), which all have been linked to improved metabolic factors (just like diets high in Omega 3.
There are multiple metabolic ward studies and observation studies that show no difference in health when comparing keto vs low fat diets (when protein is consistent).
Ultimately, a diet that enables you to reduce calories will yield the results.
And we don't want even need to discuss insulin because no study has proven insulin theory. And even more so, there are multiple hormones that inhibit lipolysis (fat burning); ASP and GIP to name some of the bigger ones.4 -
EstrangedTiger wrote: »Jigglypuff00 wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
That isn't what the evidence shows (maybe you are eating less than you think) That said you will prob lose more at first due to depleted glycogen which retains water. so the big loss up front isn't fat loss, it is water weight.
So the 27 lbs I lost in the first 2 months was just water weight?
Some of it certainly was. You will probably get an idea of how much if and when you choose to transition off of keto. You will replenish your glycogen stores, and since each gram of glycogen holds 3g of water, your weight will spike. You won't have gained any fat back, but your initial water weight loss will have evened out. This is why many get discouraged when stopping or "cheating" on keto. They see a big spike on the scale and draw the conclusion that eating carbs makes you fat, but it's just the water weight balancing out.
Keeping that water weight off is important. It reduces inflammation. Helps treat a variety of inflammation linked diseases.
This is a bit of nonsense. Not all water weight or inflammation is bad. Your body stores water for a variety of reasons.. some good, some bad, some netrual. I carry 2-3lbs of water weight from lifting, so i can replace my muscle fibers. We also store glycogen for an immediate energy source. You eat carbs and you store glycogen, which ia good. This also maintains our electrolytes which helps autoregulate our body and prevents tachycardia.
So lumping all inflammation into a category is highly inaccurate.4 -
That’s awesome!!! My girlfriend does the keto fasting too and she’s lost quite a bit of weight!! If it works for you and you feel good I say right on!! congrats! 3
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. That’s awesome!!! My girlfriend does the keto fasting too and she’s lost quite a bit of weight!! If it works for you and you feel good I say right on!! congrats!
As indeed for any diet, as long as reasonably nutritionally balanced.
If it works for you and you feel good, keep right on it.
Me personally, that 'works and feels good diet' is neither keto nor fasting.2 -
KombuchaKat wrote: »acorsaut89 wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »The keto diet is more about insulin control than calories. (See The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung) I have been eating within 100 calories of my TDEE and lose 1 -2 lbs a week. It seems the body fat disappears at a quicker rate than the numbers on the scale.
No you haven't. Your TDEE is the total number of calories you burn in a day. If you are losing 1 to 2 lbs a week, then you are eating within 500 to 1000 calories short of your TDEE.
OP, I'd be cautious about eating that low calories, especially long term. If you value your muscles, you don't want to go overly aggressive in your diet and make sure you have adequate protein and resistance training to support those goals.
Actually, this isn't true. I am NOT eating 500-1000 calories short of my TDEE and I lose 1-3# a week on keto. CICO is not a thing on the ketogenic diet. I go over my TDEE every single day and continue to lose. We don't begin burning our muscles if we keep our protein moderate and fat high.
CICO is a thing of life, full stop. Regardless of which "diet" or way of eating you follow, you have to consume less than you burn in order to lose -- that's how weight loss works. There's no way you're going over your TDEE and still losing unless 1) you're eating less than you think or 2) you're burning more than you think. You are correct that with adequate protein consumption you won't burn your muscle mass, but you can't lose if you're eating more than you burn. It's that simple.
Perhaps that is true but long term calorie restriction day in and day out may not work for everyone, in fact since most people re-gain weight on the traditional daily calorie deficit if fasting helps make it more comfortable and manageable I do not see the problem. It was not until recently that we had a serious obesity problem, and it was not until recently that people were constantly surrounded by food and told they had to eat all the time, coincidence? Feast then famine is how we adapted. Most of the naturally thin people I know eat then they are hungry, not when they are supposed to, and thus intermittent fast all the time without even trying. Fasting can help you get control of your hunger signals and realize that you aren't going to die if you don't eat. It turns on genes that promote cellular repair and longevity so the benefits are not just weight loss.
Fasting has different effects on different people. I tried 16:8 fasting for several months. I was always starving and struggled to control urges. I do much better eating 3 large meals a day.
Regardless of the dietary method or diet you follow, 80 to 90% will regain the weight. It's just how it works.
I like 16:8, it fits well with the way I like to eat. I'm not usually that hungry in the mornings and I enjoy big dinners. There's nothing magical about it as far as weight loss and I don't make Herculean efforts to strictly adhere to it, but most of the time it works great for me as far as satiety/adherence. I don't attribute any other magick or wizardry to it, you still need a caloric deficit to lose weight.
5:2 is a complete non-starter for me - no way I'm eating 500 calories a day twice a week. Especially since there are no scientifically proven benefits to it. Perhaps it works for some people and they can deal with the 500 calorie days, but I'm not one of them.
Funny enough I'm the opposite!
I found 5:2 really good for my weight loss phase (far easier for me than every day deficit) but really disliked 16:8 at maintenance (although I'm a natural breakfast skipper).
But just like you my weight tracks my calorie balance irrespective of eating patterns.
The 5:2 book (The Fast Diet) is full of science. But mostly cherry picked, out of context, not human trials or simply extrapolated way beyond the evidence presented.2
This discussion has been closed.
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