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Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
Replies
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The thing about body positivity (IMO at least) is that you, yourself, should love yourself but society does not have to love you. Society has to accept you and not discriminate against you, yes, but society doesn't need to love you. I as a person have some things I find ugly and some I find beautiful (not only from an aesthetically point of view), those are my preferences so I should of course accept and respect everybody but I don't have to love them.
To have "beauty", you need to have "ugly", like the yin and the yang, you can't have one without the other. Likewise, ideals have always existed in society. They fluctuated with the era and the place (remember how nerds used to be made fun of then they became an ideal like in the scene from the movie "21 jump street") but IMO they will always be a part of society.
And remember: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" (Animal Farm)1 -
One of my favourite sayings: "What other people think of you is none of your business."
You do you. Whatever suits your personal physical goals in life is no one's concern but yours.6 -
I haven't read any other replies, but here are my thoughts.
I think that in general, bodybuilding can be a good thing when it comes to people improving their health. But as far as doing it only for aesthetics, I do think it can become negative for reasons that were brought up in that original debate.
I haven't had any major struggles with body image. But if I'm being honest, I would probably have to say that concern with this was a factor (but not the only one) in my desire to build more muscle.
I think though that it's hard for me to really say overall which way I would lean.3 -
I think that you might have your wires crossed on body positivity.
Note: I am excluding HAES because that’s a whole different beast that really doesn’t embrace the tenets of body positivity as I know them.
I’ve been through eating disorder recovery with a great deal of “body positivity” work.
Here are some highlights:
-love and appreciate my body because it’s an incredible work of art and capable of amazing things.
-love and appreciate myself and find my value and worth completely aside from my appearance and the number on the scale/printed on the size tag in my clothes.
-I am the same kickass amazing person regardless of my size or how “beautiful” I am
-love and appreciate my body and myself so I will treat my body well, feed it and exercise it appropriately and keep it as healthy as possible.
You’ll notice there’s NO part of that comparing myself to anything else. I’m fact, that’s kind of the entire point - you do you, and love you for you. At no point in treatment did we spend any time discussing how society made us feel bad (as @Anvil_Head mentioned many pages back and I’m too lazy to go find it), it was us making us feel bad.
Society is not responsible. I am.
There will be another ideal tomorrow, or next year or some time in the future. It is up to me to be confident in myself and my worth regardless of what that ideal might be. And body positivity is about finding that personal strength and confidence/conviction/self-esteem/self-worth. It’s not about blaming society.
So no. Bodybuilding (or whatever your specific argument is) is not bad for society with respect to body positivity issues.
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Duck_Puddle wrote: »I think that you might have your wires crossed on body positivity.
Note: I am excluding HAES because that’s a whole different beast that really doesn’t embrace the tenets of body positivity as I know them.
I’ve been through eating disorder recovery with a great deal of “body positivity” work.
Here are some highlights:
-love and appreciate my body because it’s an incredible work of art and capable of amazing things.
-love and appreciate myself and find my value and worth completely aside from my appearance and the number on the scale/printed on the size tag in my clothes.
-I am the same kickass amazing person regardless of my size or how “beautiful” I am
-love and appreciate my body and myself so I will treat my body well, feed it and exercise it appropriately and keep it as healthy as possible.
You’ll notice there’s NO part of that comparing myself to anything else. I’m fact, that’s kind of the entire point - you do you, and love you for you. At no point in treatment did we spend any time discussing how society made us feel bad (as @Anvil_Head mentioned many pages back and I’m too lazy to go find it), it was us making us feel bad.
Society is not responsible. I am.
There will be another ideal tomorrow, or next year or some time in the future. It is up to me to be confident in myself and my worth regardless of what that ideal might be. And body positivity is about finding that personal strength and confidence/conviction/self-esteem/self-worth. It’s not about blaming society.
So no. Bodybuilding (or whatever your specific argument is) is not bad for society with respect to body positivity issues.
I the disconnect her might come down to the difference between a real therapeutic approach to body positivity and the Tumblr version of it.7 -
Personally, I believe unnatural body building perhaps can harm many people with the images of these huge bulky bodies that are unattainable at a natural level. But in my eyes natural body building (what I aspire to do) can be almost motivational in a way or help people aspiring to better themselves.
Especially when you see athletes like Possiblepat or danny_getsfit get on stage competing at the highest level a natural athlete can go (especially when they were formerly overweight like myself), it’s inspiring. It shouldn’t make anyone feel bad about themselves as we all have the same goal every time we step into the gym, to get better.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If I achieve any goal, like writing a novel or finishing a marathon or icing a beautiful wedding cake, am I harming those who cannot achieve it?
Not sure these are the best analogies because many elements are missing. For one, those are all external goals based on function (your ability to do or create something) -- not based on the aesthetics of your very body. Second, society does not care how good of a writer you are (though some occupations might). The media does not promote idealized writing styles or glorify good writers. People are not taught from a young age that their self-worth is tied to their ability to write like Hemingway or Homer.
In the same way, I'd leave powerlifting out of this conversation -- because that's about function -- how much you can lift.
Your body is a physical thing...it is just flesh. I am not clear on what the difference is. Body building is about aesthetics and ones ability to create something as well. Not everyone can do it, but if everyone could do it it wouldn't be impressive.6 -
I think body building isn’t bad for society. I actually think it looks amazing! I think it’s down to every individual person and their self esteem/insecurities .. I follow a lot of body building woman on Instagram to motivate myself to train hard and eat well. I find their images extremely motivating therefore having a positive effect on me.5
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I know somebody who injured her back from coughing. Disc slipped part way out of her spine. Messed up her sciatic nerve. She couldn't work for months. Doctors said lack of exercise was a factor.
I think discouraging exercise is bad for society.12 -
My debate partner's argument was that because in bodybuilding, one strives for form over function, it is inherently unhealthy -- if not for the individual (who casual bodybuilding might still be a net gain for health-wise, especially if done in a body-positive way), then for society, because emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles. That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding.
I'm not sure what to think about this and couldn't find anything online written about this exact angle. I'm curious what this community thinks. If I, as an individual, want to go to the gym to specifically build muscle for aesthetic reasons, is that a bad thing for society? I especially want to hear from those who are well-versed in the body-positivity world or have struggled with body positivity themselves.
I've read through some of this thread, not all of it, but I wanted to go back to the OP, and the premises built by the debate partner.
1, "emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles"
I disagree that emphasis on aesthetic appearance causes psychological harm to others. I am also doubtful that there are many who could not improve their abs or chest if they wanted to do their own bodybuilding. I'm not saying that there aren't individuals who couldn't, but most people have the ability to change their physical appearance through body building if they want to.
2, "That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding."
I already disagreed with the "causing harm" part, but I also disagree that one can contribute to someone else's "self-non-acceptance". The term "self-non-acceptance" says right in the name that it is the self accepting or not accepting. Outside influences should be minimal.
The premises of the debate partner's argument are weak at best; therefore the conclusion that bodybuilding is bad for society can be dismissed (without even weighing it against all of the good that it does, for the individual and for communal health).
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No.1
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cmriverside wrote: »Wait. :huh:
Stay in your own lane. Don't worry about or envy or covet or be jealous or insecure or afraid or whatever perfectionist all-or-nothing thing is going on there...I have never once thought about anything like what you are postulating.
All I can be is who I am.
I could not care any less about what Joe or Jane does with their body. If they ask me I probably would not even have an opinion. If they don't ask me, I stay in my own lane.
Maybe read up on boundaries.
You are clearly not somebody who suffers from body positivity issues. You seem like someone with a healthy outlook on yourself. You also seem to feel/think that what you do is your business even if it might negatively impact other people... which is a valid opinion, though certainly not the only one.
I don't suffer from paralysis, but this isn't stopping me from moving. There's a limit to what may concern others. If excellence negatively impacts other people, then this is not a valid concern.
Promoting envy and narcissism certainly is not healthy.9 -
I can't help but think this is more a personal issue for you than a philosophical debate you were having with someone?
You said in your OP that you weren't sure what to think and were curious what we thought, but you seem pretty darn sure to me and very quick to just tell everyone we're wrong.
Whether you want to believe it or not, there are many in this thread who struggled/struggle with body image, who have been obese, unhealthy, weak. Some have transformed themselves, some are still working on it. All for slightly different reasons and motives, I'd guess. We are all speaking from experience.
The truth is I didn't agree with the person I was debating this with, but want more perspectives on it, and am trying to hold my opinion loosely enough to change my mind in the face of new info. If I came in here and said, hey guys, doesn't this seem wrong to you??? That would introduce a lot of bias. Instead, I'm trying to embody and defend their point of view for the sake of discussion and explore all the corners. My own experience with body positivity is incredibly limited -- I've always been athletic-looking, tall, and fit. For all of my adult life, I've loved my body. I love it incrementally more as I get fitter and see it as a kindness I'm doing to myself. I work at it but not nearly as hard as many people. I'm not a bodybuilder by definition, but aesthetics are definitely 50% of my motivation. But I'm willing to entertain the idea that I should re-examine the aesthetics part.
A postmodernist take on bodybuilding?
Don't bother. You cannot change the world - you simply are not that competent or that good. Change yourself - that is hard enough.1 -
Let me put it like this. I don't owe you anything. You don't owe me anything. Nothing that I do has a primary, direct negative impact on you. If we do interact, I am going to treat you with decency and kindness. Beyond that, I am guiltless for you not treating yourself the very same.
PS - For a ridiculous comparison- which may not be so ridiculous in some cases, if we talk self-loathing while way outside the normal weight range. I am a smoker. I don't blame the media for showing me healthy people, nicotine patches and cutting out cigarettes as much as possible. I know what I am doing to myself. The world is guiltless.8 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
I don't think anyone is pretending that their success is solely from merit.
Success comes from overcoming obstacles. It just doesn't happen.
One sure path to failure is to excuse not trying.
Yes, one can be abused or raped. The successful person is the one who testifies against their abuser or rapist and doesn't let the perpetrator have power over them. I personally know a rape victim. She was the only one of a dozen or so victims willing to testify against her attacker. She chose to not let him win. The others remained victims.
Bad things happen. They happen to all of us. What we do determines if we succeed or fail.
Off topic. Not every victim wants to testify because many of them see it as a second trauma. You can't fault people for choosing what they feel is best for them.
True, and something to consider, thanks.1 -
I agree, but I didn't think anyone was suggesting that people refrain from exercise in general.NorthCascades wrote: »I think discouraging exercise is bad for society.
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You've mentioned powerlifting a few times now. How is training for powerlifting any more 'virtuous' than training for physique? Both of them are a specific individual end goal. Is it because you think being able to lift a lot of weight won't hurt people's feelings as much as having a good body?
Virtue was your word, not mine. Yes, the point I'm exploring is whether you optimize for having a perfect-looking body, you cause more harm than if you optimize for having a functional body. Power lifters are not perpetuating any kind of aesthetic ideal. Action figures and movie stars do not look like power lifters.
I'll also point out to those that didn't notice, this isn't MY argument. I'm exploring it because I came across it debating someone else, and if I just agree with you all it doesn't do me any good.
The bolded is not true if you look outside of the heavyweight lifters. Go look at Dan Green, Larry Wheels, or Layne Norton for starters, if someone with a body image didn't know they were powerlifters would they be triggered seeing them because they look aesthetic? How can you tell from the outside the motivations (functional or purely aesthetic) of someone with a great body?
Let's take your argument a bit further. If we start here and say that bodybuilding is bad for society, then we should stop it. This should move the ideal body to something less defined. When we have a portion of the population who can't achieve that ideal body then we need to do something to make sure we don't hurt others and therefore figure out how to move the ideal body to an even lesser defined level. How far do we take this? Do we keep going until everyone is overweight and out of shape?
Who defines the "body that isn't achievable" by most of society when most of society doesn't even try to achieve that level of body aesthetics. There are some people with medical issues that make it extremely difficult to shed weight but beyond that, a general chiseled body is not beyond most people's grasp if they really try. In fact, a big portion of a chiseled body isn't made in the gym, it is getting body weight down. Do we get concerned with people losing enough weight to show a 6 pack and start claiming that 6 packs are bad for society so therefore people shouldn't have less than x% fat?
I can't wait untl we get the Secretary of the Ideal Body as a government cabinet position.5 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree, but I didn't think anyone was suggesting that people refrain from exercise in general.NorthCascades wrote: »I think discouraging exercise is bad for society.
The suggestion was that people should not exercise at a certain level for aesthetic reasons for fear that others may be offended or feel bad about themselves. It shouldn't matter what the motivation for exercising is. If I lift for aesthetic reasons then that is my decision and if someone else has a problem with that then they are the one with an issue. Others have mentioned it throughout this thread, but most who train at a high level are not doing it for a singular reason. A person can want to become stronger and healthier as well as having aesthetic goals. Does this mean overweight people should not lose weight if they are doing it simply so they can look better to themselves? Should they worry about another overweight person getting offended if they work hard to put themselves in a healthy weight range? A lot of people feel much more confident and feel better about themselves when they do lose weight which only increases body positivity.
I think this whole pointless debate comes down to envy. An overweight or obese person may become envious of someone else who has put in a lot of work to look the way they do. The person with the problem is the one who is envious and not the one who is the object of that envy. People need to quit worrying about what everyone else is doing and just focus on becoming the version of themselves that makes them the most happy(regardless of what that body type is).11 -
No. What is unhealthy is the obsession with looking a certain way regardless of health factors. Instead of focusing on health, too many focus on image. Many people forget that (with a few notable exceptions), most champion male bodybuilders are much shorter than the average male(~5'5"). And most female fashion models tend to be much taller (~6'). Height plays an enormous role in proportions, and these proportions are very difficult to attain for the average population.1
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@harneska Are you focusing on "bodybuilding" or "body positivity"? Those are two different domains.
I am confused how the work one person does or does not to achieve the present state of their body can be an 'othering' act. Please elucidate.4 -
My debate partner's argument was that because in bodybuilding, one strives for form over function, it is inherently unhealthy -- if not for the individual (who casual bodybuilding might still be a net gain for health-wise, especially if done in a body-positive way), then for society, because emphasis on the aesthetic appearance of one's body causes psychological harm to others who cannot achieve, let's say, chiseled abs or larger chest muscles. That because you are causing harm to other people in this way, by contributing to their self-non-acceptance, we'd all be better off if nobody did bodybuilding.
I'm trying to get back to the premise of your/the argument, because you seem to be finding issue with people's statements over the last few pages. Would you agree that what I've bolded here is the premise in question?
Assuming yes, here's my response: It's a fundamentally flawed premise, and therefore I do not subscribe to any arguments stemming from it. I am not an agent of or responsible for someone else's psychological response to my treatment of my own body. The form/function distinction is entirely irrelevant. If I want to get a dozen plastic surgeries to look like <insert attractive person>, that's completely my business. If I want to spend 12 hours a week over the course of years to sculpt myself into an Adonis, that's my prerogative. If that bothers someone, they should seek therapy, not embrace an external locus of control by conflating their feelings with my actions.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree, but I didn't think anyone was suggesting that people refrain from exercise in general.NorthCascades wrote: »I think discouraging exercise is bad for society.
The suggestion was that people should not exercise at a certain level for aesthetic reasons for fear that others may be offended or feel bad about themselves. It shouldn't matter what the motivation for exercising is. If I lift for aesthetic reasons then that is my decision and if someone else has a problem with that then they are the one with an issue. Others have mentioned it throughout this thread, but most who train at a high level are not doing it for a singular reason. A person can want to become stronger and healthier as well as having aesthetic goals. Does this mean overweight people should not lose weight if they are doing it simply so they can look better to themselves? Should they worry about another overweight person getting offended if they work hard to put themselves in a healthy weight range? A lot of people feel much more confident and feel better about themselves when they do lose weight which only increases body positivity.
I think this whole pointless debate comes down to envy. An overweight or obese person may become envious of someone else who has put in a lot of work to look the way they do. The person with the problem is the one who is envious and not the one who is the object of that envy. People need to quit worrying about what everyone else is doing and just focus on becoming the version of themselves that makes them the most happy(regardless of what that body type is).
What he said.
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Absolutely not. Shaming anyone for any body type is the real problem.3
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