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Alcohol: Toxic in any amount, or beneficial in moderation, or does it depend on the person?
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Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks for your input, @Anvilhead!
On a different note, the Lancet just published this study:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/23/health/global-alcohol-study/index.html
It says that at the end of the day, no amount of alcohol is good for you.
A couple of the major issues I have with this study (in addition to the clickbait drama sound bites the study authors used to talk about it)-
First, it is still largely showing correlation, if I'm understanding it correctly. They aren't saying alcohol 100% caused all the deaths and diseases noted, just that people who drink are more likely to end up with one of them.
Second, they are including things like alcohol related violence and accidents, which isn't about "drinking alcohol", it's about "drinking alcohol irresponsibly". And I believe that any health conditions that are strongly linked to alcohol are at least usually linked to excessive drinking. I wonder what those statistics would look like if you were just looking at numbers for men drinking 1 or 2 per day and women drinking 1 per day, minus those who did so while driving or cleaning their guns. How many of those included in the study just had a glass of wine or a finger of Scotch while watching TV at night? How many of the bad outcomes were people drinking in excess, people who drank and drove or other stupid activities, and people who already had mental illness or violent lives and added alcohol to that mix?
Third, the bar graphs show that the vast majority of people drink some amount of alcohol. Isn't it possible that the small minority who never drink also never do lots of other things? I mean, if you did this study in Pennsylvania, a part of that 10% would be Amish, and they don't have cars or use anything electronic, grow a lot of their own food, and they rarely travel outside of their hometown. So if they live longer, is it because they don't drink, or is it one of the other things they don't do? (Not to say there aren't people who live completely typical lives and just choose not to drink, but statistically, that 10% includes people who abstain for moral or religious reasons and quite possibly make lots of other choices differently from the 90%).
To be fair, another thread made me rather stabby last night and I am taking it out on this study I probably just need a beer...16 -
A couple of the major issues I have with this study (in addition to the clickbait drama sound bites the study authors used to talk about it)-
First, it is still largely showing correlation, if I'm understanding it correctly. They aren't saying alcohol 100% caused all the deaths and diseases noted, just that people who drink are more likely to end up with one of them.
Second, they are including things like alcohol related violence and accidents, which isn't about "drinking alcohol", it's about "drinking alcohol irresponsibly". And I believe that any health conditions that are strongly linked to alcohol are at least usually linked to excessive drinking. I wonder what those statistics would look like if you were just looking at numbers for men drinking 1 or 2 per day and women drinking 1 per day, minus those who did so while driving or cleaning their guns. How many of those included in the study just had a glass of wine or a finger of Scotch while watching TV at night? How many of the bad outcomes were people drinking in excess, people who drank and drove or other stupid activities, and people who already had mental illness or violent lives and added alcohol to that mix?
Third, the bar graphs show that the vast majority of people drink some amount of alcohol. Isn't it possible that the small minority who never drink also never do lots of other things? I mean, if you did this study in Pennsylvania, a part of that 10% would be Amish, and they don't have cars or use anything electronic, grow a lot of their own food, and they rarely travel outside of their hometown. So if they live longer, is it because they don't drink, or is it one of the other things they don't do? (Not to say there aren't people who live completely typical lives and just choose not to drink, but statistically, that 10% includes people who abstain for moral or religious reasons and quite possibly make lots of other choices differently from the 90%).
To be fair, another thread made me rather stabby last night and I am taking it out on this study I probably just need a beer...
Love this post SO much.
Those that are unable to drink responsibly should not.
The comment: "no amount of alcohol is good for you" can be placed in almost any context depending on personal situations and beliefs. Wonder how much chocolate cake / ice cream / McDonalds / red meat / chicken / wheat products / soday / sugar / fat / non-fat / non-GMO / non-organic / exercise / no exercise / non whatever / is good for you?
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@kimny72 -- all good points.
Basically, this study is a Rorschach test-- everyone is going to take away what they want to see and justify what they are already doing, lol.5 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks Orphia for creating this board! I've been following the discussion on the other boards; it is an interesting one.
Here are my random thoughts:
If I hear that a person "drinks every day," my immediate reaction upon hearing that is that that person is veering very close to having a potentially problematic relationship with alcohol. I suppose there's always going to be a little old lady out there who truly does have just one 5 ounce glass of sherry in the evening, but my suspicion is that she would be the exception, rather than the rule. For the daily drinker, it's usually more than one drink, sometimes way more.
But I am open to hearing differing opinions about this.
And since we're citing studies, my understanding was always that per the federal government dietary guidelines, for women, drinking more than seven drinks per week (5 ounces counting as one glass of wine) puts you in the "heavy drinker" category. https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/
Is the "7 drinks per week" guideline in dispute? Perhaps some would say that it is too much-- and in order to be a "moderate drinker," it really should be fewer drinks than 7.
Once again, I'd love to hear others' views on this.
I am not a little old lady and I will have one glass of wine or one beer with dinner often. I don't think that is all that rare. Most of the people in my family since I was a child have done so, and my in-laws and friends I often have dinner with as well. Maybe it depends on where you're from?
Just dropping in to reinforce the bolded - I too usually have a glass of wine in the evening. I even measure out 5 oz., because I have a terrible eye for quantity.
I also agree with others that context and dosage matter.4 -
https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-alcohol-is-the-only-safe-amount-of-alcohol-for-you-study-says
Here's another clickbait headline for you, @kimny72!
It will be interesting/amusing to see all the different angles on this study. FYI, apparently the Gates Foundation funded it.0 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-alcohol-is-the-only-safe-amount-of-alcohol-for-you-study-says
Here's another clickbait headline for you, @kimny72!
It will be interesting/amusing to see all the different angles on this study. FYI, apparently the Gates Foundation funded it.
Just skimmed it, but I like this quote the best I think "Gakidou told CNN that she was aware of the studies that showed better health with moderate drinking, but dismissed it and said that alcohol was almost universally a problematic health issue." Oh, okay, well I guess we're just dismissing any study that didn't agree with yours. That makes things easier. :noway:
On a related note, we are taking my mom out to dinner for her birthday tonight, and I am for sure having a lovely alcoholic beverage with my dinner and will not be even the tiniest bit worried that I am putting myself in the wrong statistical column8 -
Waste of calories to me personally. To think I used to brew! LOL4
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I'm the OP. Thanks, all, for an interesting discussion.
My brother-in-law died of liver failure from alcoholism on Thursday.
I had no idea he had liver problems when I started this topic.
I'm stepping out of the discussion due to emotion for now.36 -
I don’t have any hard-won research (so you may ignore me if you wish), but I had a nurse (not a doctor, but still someone full of smarts) give it to me straight “I don’t think you should drink.” As in, not even half a sip/please stay completely dry.* Of course, that implies that I have countless medical reasons to abstain, so be dry I will. That puts me in the “toxic in any amount” camp (and makes me wish I could politely ask the world to do the same, but I can’t and that’s alright by me-this (well, where I am) is America! Land of the free, home of the brave because of the brave.)
*In addition to the above persuasion/knowledge of my specific health risks, I am also aware of moral, social and public safety implications that push me even further into the dry side.
Edited to squash an exhaustion-fueled typo4 -
What I find interesting is that most of the recent articles in the main stream press saying "no amount of alcohol is safe" are based on the same Lancet article saying "No level of alcohol consumption improves health"
The two things don't necessarily mean the same thing.
I should declare a invested interest. I do drink alcohol in fact I drink it almost every day. Which perhaps I shouldn't.
Do I think drinking a beer, having a glass of wine or whisky improves my health. No I don't think it does improve it. However, I also don't think the harm it's potentially doing is significant.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31571-X/fulltext6 -
“I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they wake up in the morning, that is the best they are going to feel all day-”
― Frank Sinatra17 -
Stockholm_Andy wrote: »The two things don't necessarily mean the same thing.
...
Do I think drinking a beer, having a glass of wine or whisky improves my health. No I don't think it does improve it. However, I also don't think the harm it's potentially doing is significant.
I think it is clarifying to make the distinction between being healthful and being detrimental.
Another question one could ask, which seems to be related to an unacknowledged bias aound here, is this:
Does drinking alcohol improve your life?
There is not an easy or one-size-fits-all answer to this one. For those with alcoholic tendencies, or certain health conditions, the answer is certainly "no". For others, for example wine connoisseurs, the answer is going to be "yes". I personally am a craft beer fan, and one of my great indulgences is sampling, at the end of the day, some of the amazing creations that are out there.
Obviously this site is focused on health. But we make a mistake of putting foods and practices into boxes labeled "healthy" or "unhealthy". Even if alcohol is toxic in any amount, I would still choose to enjoy it because it has other perceived benefits besides a clinical, toxicological assessment. It makes my life richer - it adds color and texture to my world. If someday I find that it has a worse impact on me - e.g. an adverse reaction to a needed prescription- then I would make the choice to abstain.16 -
I don't know about studies & I know that's what you're asking for but just to share, I hate alcohol. My father was an alcoholic, his father (died young) my 3 brothers, my husband(stopped drinking 3yrs ago & me when I was young. Ruined many lives6
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I don't know about studies & I know that's what you're asking for but just to share, I hate alcohol. My father was an alcoholic, his father (died young) my 3 brothers, my husband(stopped drinking 3yrs ago & me when I was young. Ruined many lives
their drinking ruined their lives. my one glass of wine every few months does not hurt anyone. it's not the alcohol, it is the person8 -
I can't imagine how alcohol itself could have any health benefits. I could see how other ingredients that happen to also be in an alcoholic beverage might though. That said I'd imagine if you got those ingredients without the alcohol it would be just as beneficial.
In other words lots of claims that say a glass of wine a day is a good thing....but I doubt anyone claims it is due to the ethanol, if anything they hand wave over the antioxidants. Haven't heard any claims that drinking a shot of everclear or moonshine a day is good for you.8 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Haven't heard any claims that drinking a shot of everclear or moonshine a day is good for you.
Top Result on Google for Health Benefits of Moonshine:
Top 8 Benefits & Uses Of Moonshine
By the way the title of the article is more misleading than a misleading thing that's been mislead into a particularly misleading room and been given several bottles of Moonshine.
(There really is some website or other making literally any claim if you look for it)
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For me, toxic in any amount.5
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I drink wine every day. A glass while cooking dinner and a glass (or 2!) with dinner and later in the evening. I'm not a little old lady or an alcoholic. I rarely eat sweets and do not eat desserts or ice cream. Everything in moderation. 🍷 Cheers!4
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