I am amazed that not many people train their legs
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I HATE HATE HATE lower body day. But I do it anyway.0
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Because at even a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the energy output between treadmill running vs outdoor running is very minimal, in fact it makes up the difference almost.
How are you coming to these conclusions??
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Actually there are a number of studies that show that increasing the incline on a treadmill gives the same energy output as running on the flat. The value varies depending on the study but the generally say at least a 1% increase is needed.0 -
And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.
I posted 2 links earlier which are from good sources (Livestrong and Dr. Romanov Running). I enjoyed the argument
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Here's a reference to 1% treadmill incline most accurately reflects the energetic costs of outdoor running:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8887211
Here's a reference to why outdoor running requires more coordination and balance, and why that is good for you:
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/treadmill-versus-outside-running.htmlOvercoming Running Surface Differences
When you run outside you are moving over changing terrain. The slant and incline of the ground is always changing. The surface you are running over may also change. You might move from concrete to gravel or grass to asphalt. The smooth and even surface of the treadmill cannot be made rough and uneven. The main negative result of this is the lack of propreoceptive training. Proprioception is an important skill when running on the treadmill. Proprioception is basically intuitively feeling and knowing the position and motion of your body, feet, legs, arms, etc. at all times. It is being aware of all of the different actions of your running stride. This is something that, to a limited extent, you do naturally. But to maximize your level of awareness, practice consciously being aware of your position on the belt, the amount of forward lean, the position of your hips, the angle of your feet and all stages of your running stride.
When running outside, you encounter all types of uneven and unstable running surfaces. A changing surface will force your neuromuscular system to become more proprioceptive because it must make split second adjustments in order to keep your body stable and moving in the right direction. The flat and even surface of the treadmill removes this valuable training opportunity. So, if you do most or all of your workouts on the treadmill, you should practice proprioception at all times. You can also use a wobble board. A wobble board is just what it sounds like. It is a board with a half sphere on the bottom of it. It “wobbles” when you step or stand on it. Performing exercises on this type of board will help build and maintain those proprioceptive skills.
Proprioception is important in all running activities, but even more so when running on the treadmill. Runners tend to allow the action of the belt and the lack of wind resistance to change their stride to a more upright, bouncy form with a shorter, less powerful stride. Being more aware of your running mechanics will make it easier to transfer your normal stride to the treadmill and visa versa.
And another:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376459-running-on-the-treadmill-vs-outside/Terrain
The treadmill is free of potholes, gravel pits, cracked cement and other uneven terrain you often encounter outdoors. While this may seem like a good thing, it can also mess up your balance and proprioception when you do run outside. Proprioception is your body's innate awareness of its position and movement at all times, an awareness that works to adjust itself over uneven ground. If you constantly run on the treadmill but intend to move it outside, Running Planet suggests training on a wobble board to keep your proprioception keen.0 -
I've seen those stickly legged men and women, and they look odd, and on men, i don't find it attractive at all.
At my gym, the leg press, and smiths are constantly being used to do squats (with wrong form obviously LOL), or free squats, deadlifts, calf raises.
I did however meet a fellow calf raiser yesterday, that said there IS something (can't remember the name) that some people get, like stubborn calves or something, and your calves wont gain mass. He said his are really strong, but as far as actual physical size, he cant get them to get any bigger. He saw some people go as far as implants to fix this.----what?!0 -
Here's a reference to why outdoor running requires more coordination and balance, and why that is good for you:
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/treadmill-versus-outside-running.htmlOvercoming Running Surface Differences
When you run outside you are moving over changing terrain. The slant and incline of the ground is always changing. The surface you are running over may also change. You might move from concrete to gravel or grass to asphalt. The smooth and even surface of the treadmill cannot be made rough and uneven. The main negative result of this is the lack of propreoceptive training. Proprioception is an important skill when running on the treadmill. Proprioception is basically intuitively feeling and knowing the position and motion of your body, feet, legs, arms, etc. at all times. It is being aware of all of the different actions of your running stride. This is something that, to a limited extent, you do naturally. But to maximize your level of awareness, practice consciously being aware of your position on the belt, the amount of forward lean, the position of your hips, the angle of your feet and all stages of your running stride.
When running outside, you encounter all types of uneven and unstable running surfaces. A changing surface will force your neuromuscular system to become more proprioceptive because it must make split second adjustments in order to keep your body stable and moving in the right direction. The flat and even surface of the treadmill removes this valuable training opportunity. So, if you do most or all of your workouts on the treadmill, you should practice proprioception at all times. You can also use a wobble board. A wobble board is just what it sounds like. It is a board with a half sphere on the bottom of it. It “wobbles” when you step or stand on it. Performing exercises on this type of board will help build and maintain those proprioceptive skills.
Proprioception is important in all running activities, but even more so when running on the treadmill. Runners tend to allow the action of the belt and the lack of wind resistance to change their stride to a more upright, bouncy form with a shorter, less powerful stride. Being more aware of your running mechanics will make it easier to transfer your normal stride to the treadmill and visa versa.
And another:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376459-running-on-the-treadmill-vs-outside/Terrain
The treadmill is free of potholes, gravel pits, cracked cement and other uneven terrain you often encounter outdoors. While this may seem like a good thing, it can also mess up your balance and proprioception when you do run outside. Proprioception is your body's innate awareness of its position and movement at all times, an awareness that works to adjust itself over uneven ground. If you constantly run on the treadmill but intend to move it outside, Running Planet suggests training on a wobble board to keep your proprioception keen.
Not trying to continue this debacle about running, but those aren't studies.0 -
And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.
I posted 2 links earlier which are from good sources (Livestrong and Dr. Romanov Running). I enjoyed the argument
Livestrong is hardly a good reputable source. I'll read more on the Dr. Romanov Running.
Thanks. 0 -
I run (for the most part) for my cardio and then sometimes I do either zumba or BBL. But for my weight lifting days (which Im trying to get back to my routine and its been hard) I do Chalean and yes she works arms, legs, back you name it!!0
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I guess the bottom line here between treadmill and road is that it's pretty hard to tell. Too many varying factors.
Outdoors the terrain and conditions are always different. On a treadmill it's more constant but you still have pace, grade...ect.
However, should you be able to have the same conditions outside and on a treadmill (as close as possible, same grade, same pace, no wind, rain...ect) , I think the burn would be about the same or wouldn't differ enought to matter. I would think running outside would be harder on joints depending on the surface, but I think running on grass,dirt, or a soft track might even up the difference some. Sure, treadmill is not without wear and tear, but I don't think it's close to the same as running on concrete or tar.
Not studies or science to back it up but commonsense would say that hard surfaces are probably worse on the joints that a treadmill. How much worse? Hard to tell.0 -
I notice men do not train legs that often. I go to the gym 6 days a week and lift 3-4 and always do legs. It has made me a better runner.....plus the results you get from squats, hamstring curls etc are great.....really gets your heartrate up too!0
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I work my legs every other day and arms the opposite days. I am circuit/strength training though, not necessarily lifting for bulk. I do know what you mean about seeing all these guys with massive upper bodies and toothpick legs. Too funny. I've also noticed the power lifter types have great legs and great upper bodies minus abs....they have flabby little bellies and don't work thier abs. Weird!
As for running on the treadmill versus outside, I agree with you on being outside in this heat trying to run is stupid, but to me it feels like I have to give more effort when running outside than inside on the treadmill because the treadmill "ground" is rolling while the ground doesn't which makes me feel like it takes more effrt to run on the ground versus a treadmill. Maybe it's all in my head or bring a "new runner" maybe experience will prove me otherwise.0 -
Needless to say I educated him a little bit by explaining to him that first of all, running out in 100% heat isn't brave, it's stupid. He got offended. Then I proceeded to explain to him that running on the treadmill requires more than DOUBLE the amount of coordination and balance in your entire body over running outside thus giving you more of a workout.
So you said all this to this guy with nothing to back yourself up, I hope he didn't listen to you. Sorry but you made yourself kinda sound like an uppity know it all when you haven't given any of us anything to substantiate your claims at all..........................I think you have lost this one for now.0 -
Me too. My leg program is pretty heavy, so I've started to do hamstrings and calves separately, but I do lunges, squats, leg extentions, leg press, leg curls etc etc for lower body. I usually have muscle pain for 2-3 days afterwardsI HATE HATE HATE lower body day. But I do it anyway. 0 -
I've seen those stickly legged men and women, and they look odd, and on men, i don't find it attractive at all.
At my gym, the leg press, and smiths are constantly being used to do squats (with wrong form obviously LOL), or free squats, deadlifts, calf raises.
I did however meet a fellow calf raiser yesterday, that said there IS something (can't remember the name) that some people get, like stubborn calves or something, and your calves wont gain mass. He said his are really strong, but as far as actual physical size, he cant get them to get any bigger. He saw some people go as far as implants to fix this.----what?!
Calf raises are indeed hard to train. The problem is that most of their 'strength' comes from elasticity in the achilles tendon, which is why people can 'raise' ridiculous amounts of weight.
It takes constant calf attention to make any differences. Who gets that attention? Extremely overweight people losing weight over months. Look at anyone who did Biggest Loser. Look great! Hayuuuuuge calves!
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-the-calves.html
Yes I'm going back to Lyle on this :P0 -
I am a ballroom dancer and I had ACL reconstruction surgery on my knee a couple years ago. My leg workouts with strength training are very important both for dancing and rehab. I actually like the leg workouts ( when I am good..2 -3 times a week) better then the upper body workouts... my legs have not bulked up because I don't go crazy with the weight amounts. No running for me outdoors unless it is on a cushioned track....can't be pounding the knee joints on the pavement.0
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I've seen those stickly legged men and women, and they look odd, and on men, i don't find it attractive at all.
At my gym, the leg press, and smiths are constantly being used to do squats (with wrong form obviously LOL), or free squats, deadlifts, calf raises.
I did however meet a fellow calf raiser yesterday, that said there IS something (can't remember the name) that some people get, like stubborn calves or something, and your calves wont gain mass. He said his are really strong, but as far as actual physical size, he cant get them to get any bigger. He saw some people go as far as implants to fix this.----what?!
Calf raises are indeed hard to train. The problem is that most of their 'strength' comes from elasticity in the achilles tendon, which is why people can 'raise' ridiculous amounts of weight.
It takes constant calf attention to make any differences. Who gets that attention? Extremely overweight people losing weight over months. Look at anyone who did Biggest Loser. Look great! Hayuuuuuge calves!
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-the-calves.html
Yes I'm going back to Lyle on this :P
LOL!!!! I find running up stairs a lot to be effective too 0 -
I always work my legs - that is why I have had men envy my calves LOL
I like to run - for fat burning - but I don't feel like it "hits the spot" for toning.
When I run on the treadmill, I do HIIT. I find its more effective, for me.
When I run outside, I do it in the sand. I feel like its more intense and helps me burn more fat. I do it at night, when the sun is down and there is a cool ocean breeze - I'm not interested in a heat stroke.
I do sprint on the boardwalk, or on my way to the gym, occasionally but not as part of a routine.
I'd like to be a runner, but I really don't run religiously. I know I need to work on my cardio endurance, its one of my fitness goals.
I go to the gym 4-6 times a week, depending on my kids, my husband's schedule and South Florida storm season.
In the gym I do spinning classes, Power Training and many other variations of weight-lifting and cardio burst training classes. I mix it up.
At home, I do P90X dvds - plyometrics or legs and back AND stretch.
I don't like JUST going to the gym, or JUST workingout OUTSIDE, or JUST workingout in my home. I like variation and mixing it up.
I also skate, surf, wakeboard, etc. Watersports use EVERY muscel in your body. You cannot take yourself serious and not work them. Sure I want to LOOK GOOD but I also want to be strong and athletic in my sports - my REAL interests are things that I DO not who thinks what of me when they see me doing them 0 -
And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.
No. That is not how it works. There was a thread recently that the argument went the exact same way.
In studies/tests the status quo is assumed. It is the divergence from the status quo that needs to be proven.
In our example, the status quo (NULL HYPOTHESIS) is "There is no difference in the balance and coordination needed to run on the treadmill vs. running outside." It is up to YOU to PROVE the divergence from the status quo (ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESIS) which is "The balance and coordination needed to run on the treadmill is GREATER than the balance and coordination needed for running outside."
Null Hypothesis: No difference (assumed)
Alternative Hypothesis: Treadmill > Outside (must be proven)
Bottom line, it is up to YOU to prove your statement (ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESIS). It is not up to US to prove our statement (NULL HYPOTHESIS). The ball is in your court.
This thread has turned into two completely different discussions. 1) Not many people do leg workouts. I think most people agree with this. 2) Treadmills vs. running outside. Many different statements. No real proof (that I have seen as of yet).0 -
And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.
No. That is not how it works. There was a thread recently that the argument went the exact same way.
In studies/tests the status quo is assumed. It is the divergence from the status quo that needs to be proven.
In our example, the status quo (NULL HYPOTHESIS) is "There is no difference in the balance and coordination needed to run on the treadmill vs. running outside." It is up to YOU to PROVE the divergence from the status quo (ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESIS) which is "The balance and coordination needed to run on the treadmill is GREATER than the balance and coordination needed for running outside."
Null Hypothesis: No difference (assumed)
Alternative Hypothesis: Treadmill > Outside (must be proven)
Bottom line, it is up to YOU to prove your statement (ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESIS). It is not up to US to prove our statement (NULL HYPOTHESIS).
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If you care about your health and your quality of life as you get older, train your legs and your posterior chain. I have a very weak posterior chain and my squat is embarrassingly low. RDLs, lunges, Bulgarian squats, and leg press are what I focus on.... I think it will be a life-time project for me to get my hip flexors and legs to the strength I'd like.....0
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