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First day of keto. Feel sick
Replies
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WinoGelato wrote: »
What widespread and consistently documented dietary changes have ensued from the 70s to today in the American population and what are you suggesting was the driving force for these changes?
This is what we are all trying to figure out. Obesity and diabetes skyrocketed but those are the symptoms not the cause. It is moving target but here is where I am in my thought process. We switched the fats we use from saturated (a good fat for keto) to vegetable based fats like corn oil (bad keto fat). This doesn't even touch on the whole trans fat craze back in the 70's. Many foods had the fat stripped out and to improve taste had high fructose corn syrup added. Fast food came in vogue. People changed from three meals a day to eating every few hours. Sugars in foods are way up. Portion sizes are way up. Take you pick as to what your villain or scapegoat is but we all can see what happened.
I have changed back to a way of eating that reminds me of how my mother cooked in the sixties. No cokes, no snacking, eat your veggies and she cooked real food. Only now I have cut carbs and increased fat a bit. Someone in the keto group posted a beach photograph from 1970. It looked like an alien planet because almost everyone was thin. It was quite interesting to see and it really jumped out at you.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »
So either there was scientific research or there wasn't. Which was it?
Ancel Benjamin Keys was an American physiologist who studied the influence of diet on health. In particular, he hypothesized that dietary saturated fat causes cardiovascular heart disease and should be avoided.
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This is what we are all trying to figure out. Obesity and diabetes skyrocketed but those are the symptoms not the cause. It is moving target but here is where I am in my thought process. We switched the fats we use from saturated (a good fat for keto) to vegetable based fats like corn oil (bad keto fat). This doesn't even touch on the whole trans fat craze back in the 70's. Many foods had the fat stripped out and to improve taste had high fructose corn syrup added. Fast food came in vogue. People changed from three meals a day to eating every few hours. Sugars in foods are way up. Portion sizes are way up. Take you pick as to what your villain or scapegoat is but we all can see what happened.
I have changed back to a way of eating that reminds me of how my mother cooked in the sixties. No cokes, no snacking, eat your veggies and she cooked real food. Only now I have cut carbs and increased fat a bit. Someone in the keto group posted a beach photograph from 1970. It looked like an alien planet because almost everyone was thin. It was quite interesting to see and it really jumped out at you.
Assigning weight gain to things like corn oil, high fructose corn syrup, fast food, and portion sizes is still addressing a symptom, not a cause. People gain weight because they consume more energy than their body is using.
Can those calories come from things like corn oil and fast food? Absolutely. But, in and of themselves, these things don't cause weight gain. I eat foods that are frequently described as "bad" by proponents of various low carbohydrate/paleo/keto plans (plant oils, beans, fruit, refined grains, sugar) and my body weight is at the lower end of the healthy range.7 -
@kimny72 my point was to say that eating keto isn't a new idea. Because of politics after WWII, keto was sidelined and low fat and CICO were pushed. Protein converts to a type of glucose just like carbs. Hence keto is not Atkins. It's fats vs sugars. Greene just knew that carbs were detrimental. I'm not saying everyone should do keto. What I am saying is the chronic woo-ers like anvilhead just choose to believe that their way is the ONLY way. They choose to ignore that CICO is only a hypothesis in science, not a theory or proven. But he can do what he wants, idc, but to disparage others ignorantly only confuses those that are trying to understand VLC eating. I've been doing it for 5 months and my triglycerides have dropped a little over 30%, plus quite a long laundry list of other improvements, including my autoimmune disorder. All I know is that every doc I've spoken to about it has said doing low carb is what they recommend. I don't have all the answers, but I do share what I do know for others that are also learning and working with their docs, etc.17
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nutmegoreo wrote: »If it doesn't suit you, don't do it. I would feel sick in that much fat too. Weight loss requires calorie deficit. There is nothing magical about keto.
this3 -
Huh. I was unaware the First Law of Thermodynamics was up for debate now in the scientific community. I'll leave it though, as this is already taking the thread farther off track than it already was.
I will just vaguely note that my mention of the Blue Zones again gets ignored.
I do hope OP is feeling better
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To all the people that revert to only CICO. Keto may assist in managing calories better for some if CICO is the only thing that matters. For me there is more to it than just calories. Keto is a different way of eating and is thought to reduce weight, inflammation, headaches, seizures, insulin resistance, bad cholesterol and elevate good cholesterol. This does not mean all people will see any or all of these benefits. In rare cases some show no positive results and will even elevate bad cholesterol. Others hate the way it makes them feel (trying to get back to the OP here). Anyway it not good or bad but different and I hope I see health benefits from it. I am sure we all want the same whatever method of diet we choose.5
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@kimny72 my point was to say that eating keto isn't a new idea. Because of politics after WWII, keto was sidelined and low fat and CICO were pushed. Protein converts to a type of glucose just like carbs. Hence keto is not Atkins. It's fats vs sugars. Greene just knew that carbs were detrimental. I'm not saying everyone should do keto. What I am saying is the chronic woo-ers like anvilhead just choose to believe that their way is the ONLY way. They choose to ignore that CICO is only a hypothesis in science, not a theory or proven. But he can do what he wants, idc, but to disparage others ignorantly only confuses those that are trying to understand VLC eating. I've been doing it for 5 months and my triglycerides have dropped a little over 30%, plus quite a long laundry list of other improvements, including my autoimmune disorder. All I know is that every doc I've spoken to about it has said doing low carb is what they recommend. I don't have all the answers, but I do share what I do know for others that are also learning and working with their docs, etc.
A few things. The longest living and healthiest countries in the world are all very high carb, very low fat. There is a reason they are called the blue zones.
Second, glucenogenesis is the conversation of proteins and fatty acids into glucose. If you want to know more about Glucenogenesis, I would recommend http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
Third, CICO is not a hypothesis. If you believe so, I would love to see anything to dispute the thousands of metabolic ward studies.
Lastly, keto is definitely a viable and beneficial options for some. For those who feel overly restricted or sick, it might be worth increase carbs (particularly fruits or starches) to help mitigate some of those issues.7 -
To all the people that revert to only CICO. Keto may assist in managing calories better for some if CICO is the only thing that matters. For me there is more to it than just calories. Keto is a different way of eating and is thought to reduce weight, inflammation, headaches, seizures, insulin resistance, bad cholesterol and elevate good cholesterol. This does not mean all people will see any or all of these benefits. In rare cases some show no positive results and will even elevate bad cholesterol. Others hate the way it makes them feel (trying to get back to the OP here). Anyway it not good or bad but different and I hope I see health benefits from it. I am sure we all want the same whatever method of diet we choose.
We do agree that we want others to find a diet that is suited to themselves. With compliance rates at 10-20%, any diet to help one lose weight and maintain that loss is beneficial. In the end, maintaining a healthy weight and exercise will yield better resulte than following any specific diet. The specific diet is just a method to a means.
Its why i mentioned that if the OP is feeling sick or restricted from all the fat, that she should increase carbs and protein a bit and reduce fats.4 -
To all the people that revert to only CICO. Keto may assist in managing calories better for some if CICO is the only thing that matters....
I haven’t seen that point disputed.
But the bottom line is that you lose weight via caloric deficit - by whatever means one chooses to accomplish that. If keto isn’t working for the OP, there are plenty of other options for maintaining a caloric deficit which are just as effective, and possibly more sustainable.3 -
If I ate as much as I wanted of meat, poultry, cheese, and fruit I'd be as big as a house. Those are all foods I easily overeat and I have more than once binged on cheese or fruit.
There is certainly not consensus, in establishment medicine or in alternative medicine, that low carb is best. There is really not much data on long term health effects of keto. If you like to eat that way, and you feel good and feel confident it's working for you, that's awesome! I know there are folks out there improving their weight and bloodwork doing keto.
I will again bring up the Blue Zones, though I know no one insisting low carb is obviously the healthier diet will address them.
Of course all of this is a mute point, as OP is already trying out keto and got i think some great advice about strategy and how to feel better. Hopefully she's enjoying the back and forth at least and feeling better!
My most embarrassing snack I've ever created is pieces of cheese cooked in butter until the cheese got melty and started to brown a little bit. Totally keto compliant and I could easily put away 800 calories in one late night snack eaten when I should've been in bed already.
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happytree923 wrote: »
My most embarrassing snack I've ever created is pieces of cheese cooked in butter until the cheese got melty and started to brown a little bit. Totally keto compliant and I could easily put away 800 calories in one late night snack eaten when I should've been in bed already.
Pan fry-able cheese is not allowed in my house. When I was in NY you could buy a block of white cheese that was similar to mozzarella and just slice it and fry it up in a couple of minutes. I assume the block was a one serving package, right
Perfect for a last minute late night snack, so dangerous! 5 -
"Huh. I was unaware the First Law of Thermodynamics was up for debate now in the scientific community."
CICO does not equal FLoT.10 -
nm. Waste of time.7
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So research regarding dietary composition and weight loss. Bottom line: all diets work the same way. Calorie deficit. Keto is not better than low fat. Multiple studies with calories are protein held constant. There is no advantage to the OP to stay keto unless it suits their preference and they find it more satisfying. Based on their post, that doesn't seem to be the case.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568065/
As far as CICO being "only a hypothesis", that's just nonsense.7 -
FYI, while the advice in the 80's and 90's was to reduce fat, there is no evidence anyone actually ever did that. The majority of Americans (as best as anyone can tell) were eating plenty of fat, even though they were buying some "reduced fat" items.
Other than now the second most effective diet I have ever been on was a low fat diet. I lost 40lbs eating high carb and low fat and did so without doing any kind of calorie counting. I was much more active at that age which helped maintain the deficit. It was not a sustainable plan but weight was lost over about 5 months as I recall.
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@kimny72 my point was to say that eating keto isn't a new idea. Because of politics after WWII, keto was sidelined and low fat and CICO were pushed. Protein converts to a type of glucose just like carbs. Hence keto is not Atkins. It's fats vs sugars. Greene just knew that carbs were detrimental. I'm not saying everyone should do keto. What I am saying is the chronic woo-ers like anvilhead just choose to believe that their way is the ONLY way. They choose to ignore that CICO is only a hypothesis in science, not a theory or proven. But he can do what he wants, idc, but to disparage others ignorantly only confuses those that are trying to understand VLC eating. I've been doing it for 5 months and my triglycerides have dropped a little over 30%, plus quite a long laundry list of other improvements, including my autoimmune disorder. All I know is that every doc I've spoken to about it has said doing low carb is what they recommend. I don't have all the answers, but I do share what I do know for others that are also learning and working with their docs, etc.
First I am happy you found a WoE that help you. While your results will be reproduceable in a certain number of people it will definitely not be all.
If limiting carbs is all that really matters for weight loss then how do you stop losing weight before you lose too much? Eat carbs again? Is there any pattern to the weight loss or is it just random amounts each week? Many of the people that I know that always maintain a lean weight intuitively also eat carbs with no reservation. Why aren't they gaining weight?5 -
A few things. The longest living and healthiest countries in the world are all very high carb, very low fat. There is a reason they are called the blue zones.
Second, glucenogenesis is the conversation of proteins and fatty acids into glucose. If you want to know more about Glucenogenesis, I would recommend http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
Third, CICO is not a hypothesis. If you believe so, I would love to see anything to dispute the thousands of metabolic ward studies.
Lastly, keto is definitely a viable and beneficial options for some. For those who feel overly restricted or sick, it might be worth increase carbs (particularly fruits or starches) to help mitigate some of those issues.
No they're not.
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »
Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the Blue Zones? And do you have anything more to offer than a 3 word response to validate your statement?3 -
People, keto WOE is not only about weight loss. So answering every keto question with "there is no magic to keto only CICO matters" means you are missing several other points to keto. For that matter I find that I am doing better on keto than when I was counting calories. That doesn't CICO doesn't apply but I also am feeling better and not hungry all the time.10
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People, keto WOE is not only about weight loss. So answering every keto question with "there is no magic to keto only CICO matters" means you are missing several other points to keto. For that matter I find that I am doing better on keto than when I was counting calories. That doesn't CICO doesn't apply but I also am feeling better and not hungry all the time.
Ketogenic can be used in a variety of manners. Some use it for weight loss (or try to), some think of it as a lifestyle, others use it for things like contest preps and others use it to improve medical conditions. Even within that, there is huge variation in the individual response. Some are naturally satiated and some are constantly starving. But it's good you enjoy it.2 -
Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the Blue Zones? And do you have anything more to offer than a 3 word response to validate your statement?
Some people do not want to recognize the blue zones because it doesn't support their belief systems. Anyone who looks at the blue zones will see commonalities.... active, low stress, lower calories, and generally higher carb or some, like Morocco, tend to favor a Mediterranean style diet.6 -
Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the Blue Zones? And do you have anything more to offer than a 3 word response to validate your statement?
Hi, I never heard of Blue Zones before. I eat a lot of vegetables and salad but I also like my meat so I don't think I would like that way of eating. I do find blue zones interesting so this will give me something else to research into.2 -
Hi, I never heard of Blue Zones before. I eat a lot of vegetables and salad but I also like my meat so I don't think I would like that way of eating. I do find blue zones interesting so this will give me something else to research into.
Meat is included in the standard diet in "Blue Zones" (with the exception of Loma Linda, California where many residents are vegetarians). It's just that the diets in these areas are typically also include foods like grains and beans and the meat isn't the center of the diet. Also, plant oils are usually used more often than animal fat.
Here is a starting point if you're interested in learning more: https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »
Where are the populations of 100 yr olds that follow keto ?4 -
First I am happy you found a WoE that help you. While your results will be reproduceable in a certain number of people it will definitely not be all.
If limiting carbs is all that really matters for weight loss then how do you stop losing weight before you lose too much? Eat carbs again? Is there any pattern to the weight loss or is it just random amounts each week? Many of the people that I know that always maintain a lean weight intuitively also eat carbs with no reservation. Why aren't they gaining weight?
I am curious about this too. It is implied by some that the body will self regulate at an ideal weight. If keto is truly about only CICO I would predict that one would keep losing weight. If there is some "magic" to keto weight loss would stabilize at an ideal weight with the same diet. So I guess I will experiment on myself and see what happens next.2 -
I am curious about this too. It is implied by some that the body will self regulate at an ideal weight. If keto is truly about only CICO I would predict that one would keep losing weight. If there is some "magic" to keto weight loss would stabilize at an ideal weight with the same diet. So I guess I will experiment on myself and see what happens next[/b}.
You can conduct an N=1 or you can read the meta-analysis posted above and see what the research says. It indicates that irrespective of dietary composition, energy balance (CICO) is what determines weight loss, gain or maintenance.
Keto is preferable for some, low carb for others, high carb for others, high protein for others. But none of it trumps energy balance. There is some research that suggests the appetite suppression effects of keto. For people that have issues with hunger control, that could be a factor. But not all have this issue.
https://sci-fit.net/ketogenic-diet-hunger-suppression/
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100_PROOF_ wrote: »
Where are the populations of 100 yr olds that follow keto ?
I haven't researched Blue Zones yet but this 100 years thing made me reflect on a friend that is 102 and lived alone until this year. Very sharp and when asked when she moved into her home she said 62 years ago it was labor day and it rained. I also when singing happy birthday at her 100th thought "this could really screw up a retirement plan" For what it is worth she never exercised and ate a crappy processed, carb loaded and fatty diet. Go figure.0 -
I am curious about this too. It is implied by some that the body will self regulate at an ideal weight. If keto is truly about only CICO I would predict that one would keep losing weight. If there is some "magic" to keto weight loss would stabilize at an ideal weight with the same diet. So I guess I will experiment on myself and see what happens next.
There's no "magic" involved. If one is eating, say, 1500 calories per day, their body weight will stabilize when they reach a point where 1500 calories = their TDEE (BMR goes down as you lose weight, thus lowering TDEE unless activity is increased to compensate). If they continued eating 1500 calories and didn't alter their NEAT or EAT, they would not gain or lose any weight (aside from normal scale fluctuations) regardless of the macro composition of their diet or what time of the day they ate.
According to the Fung/Taubes fantasy, if one stayed on a keto diet they would indefinitely continue to lose weight regardless of calorie intake, body weight, activity levels, etc. because insulin. And gaining weight while on a ketogenic diet would not be possible. Neither of which is true.2
This discussion has been closed.
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