Anyone cutting after a bulk?
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Ok so I’m still 4lb up from my diet break and finding it hard to go back to such a significant deficit.
I want to know if anyone has got where they want to be with one cut or if it normally takes a few bulk cut cycles?
I prefer my size around 15lbs higher than my current weight so not sure if I should just slow bulk back to there or do a recomp. I don’t really want to go much lower than my current weight, I’m 168lbs and 5’10
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@Tic78 I've run 3 bulk/cuts and I am still not where I want to be! Depending on your goals of course, I think it is pretty rare to get there in one bulk cycle.
You can do either, but I find after running bulk/cuts going to a recomp was very slow and frustrating, at least for me! Unless of course you are just a hair from your goal or bulking is not for you. If you want to be a higher weight, best thing to do is keep running bulk/cut cycles until you get there.1 -
Thank you, part of me thinks that my bmi is 24.4 so in the ideal category but it took me losing nearly 30lbs to get there that maybe I should keep cutting till I get to 22.5 bmi
I realise that bmi isn’t an ideal way to gauge progress but I wonder if there’s any articles worth reading on genetic maximums for naturals at certain bf%
Basically I’m wondering where most males who have sub 10% bf or 15-20% bf for females end up on the bmi scale as I’m thinking they’re probably in the middle or low side of the ideal category0 -
Thank you, part of me thinks that my bmi is 24.4 so in the ideal category but it took me losing nearly 30lbs to get there that maybe I should keep cutting till I get to 22.5 bmi
I realise that bmi isn’t an ideal way to gauge progress but I wonder if there’s any articles worth reading on genetic maximums for naturals at certain bf%
Basically I’m wondering where most males who have sub 10% bf or 15-20% bf for females end up on the bmi scale as I’m thinking they’re probably in the middle or low side of the ideal category
Hmm I'm not sure but I I'd be interested to know as well. I've seen stats on many female bikini bodybuilders they hang around 19-20ish BMI (generally). It really depends on the build though and if they are natural. Not sure about the males.
I am currently at 20.8. not that it means anything but it gives an idea. I am fairly small though, not super muscular.
If you find anything let me know.1 -
I’m thinking they’re probably in the middle or low side of the ideal category
I'm inclined to think otherwise, at least for men. I'm 6'1" right around 12-13% BF and on the high side of BMI (23+). I don't consider myself overly muscular and even if I hypothetically got to 6% at current LBM (164 lbs) would still only be 21.6.
Arnold allegedly would compete around 235 lbs. At 6'2", that's a BMI over 30, aka "obese" by BMI standards. All-in-all, BMI easily becomes a broken metric when even a little muscle enters the equation.1 -
Thank you, part of me thinks that my bmi is 24.4 so in the ideal category but it took me losing nearly 30lbs to get there that maybe I should keep cutting till I get to 22.5 bmi
I realise that bmi isn’t an ideal way to gauge progress but I wonder if there’s any articles worth reading on genetic maximums for naturals at certain bf%
Basically I’m wondering where most males who have sub 10% bf or 15-20% bf for females end up on the bmi scale as I’m thinking they’re probably in the middle or low side of the ideal category
There are a bunch of calculators out there that try to predict your max potential as a natural. Here is one that is mentioned in Bodyrecomposition.
http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html
for example: 7" wrist and 8.75" ankle, my measurements:
Height Weight at 10% Body Fat Lean Body Mass
5’8″ 189 lbs. 170 lbs.
5’10” 198 lbs. 178 lbs.
6′ 206 lbs. 185 lbs.
I got down to 190 at 6'1 my last cut (RFL) completely glycogen depleted and flat. First week of maintenance I jumped back to 198. I was about 13% body fat at the time. I'm currently cutting and about 202 and I figure I'll be close to the same body fat % at around 195 this time. However, I like to sit at around 15% for aesthetics (in clothes) and how I feel. I personally think I have about 20 more pounds of lean mass I can pack on - but we'll see how that plays out. Gains have gotten a lot slower and I expect the next bulk to be even slower.
Oh, here is the Bodyrecomp link that talks about all this:
https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/
edit: I've been quoting Lyle a lot lately.
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I started to bulk over the last couple months. I panicked over the weekend and went back to a deficit. Added cardio back in and cut at least 600 calories from the daily intake.
Oh no.. that's not good. Maybe try recomp/maintenance ? Unless you are underweight or close to it, or have advanced bodybuilding goals, recomp is a great option especially if gaining spooked you.
I'm chasing lifting goals and my progress has definitely slowed. I might try again in the winter when I can use the extra insulation.0 -
I started to bulk over the last couple months. I panicked over the weekend and went back to a deficit. Added cardio back in and cut at least 600 calories from the daily intake.
Oh no.. that's not good. Maybe try recomp/maintenance ? Unless you are underweight or close to it, or have advanced bodybuilding goals, recomp is a great option especially if gaining spooked you.
I'm chasing lifting goals and my progress has definitely slowed. I might try again in the winter when I can use the extra insulation.
Wait, your lifting progress is slowing with excess calories? My lifts went up quite dramatically and felt easy when I was bulking...I loved how slowly the fat gain was too (I was eating 3000 cals a day)...maybe lower the surplus a bit? How long have you been maintaining your current weight? Maybe sit there for a while longer before trying to bulk? Sorry if I sound a bit puzzled, just trying to understand (I come from an ED background, so did a bulk whilst nowhere near goal weight for psychological reasons)...0 -
nexangelus wrote: »I started to bulk over the last couple months. I panicked over the weekend and went back to a deficit. Added cardio back in and cut at least 600 calories from the daily intake.
Oh no.. that's not good. Maybe try recomp/maintenance ? Unless you are underweight or close to it, or have advanced bodybuilding goals, recomp is a great option especially if gaining spooked you.
I'm chasing lifting goals and my progress has definitely slowed. I might try again in the winter when I can use the extra insulation.
Wait, your lifting progress is slowing with excess calories? My lifts went up quite dramatically and felt easy when I was bulking...I loved how slowly the fat gain was too (I was eating 3000 cals a day)...maybe lower the surplus a bit? How long have you been maintaining your current weight? Maybe sit there for a while longer before trying to bulk? Sorry if I sound a bit puzzled, just trying to understand (I come from an ED background, so did a bulk whilst nowhere near goal weight for psychological reasons)...
My progress completely stopped when I had been in a deficit for months. Originally, I had been recomping, unintentionally so, and my lifts were improving every week. Then life got busy and I fell back into a deficit and dropped to just below underweight. My progress stopped completely with the dip in weight. I got fed up with failing my lifts so I started eating more and just passed the threshold for healthy weight. (I'm currently about 8lbs less than my avatar pic). My lifts immediately improved and I hit new PRs. But now I'm feeling soft and uncomfortable and I can't keep up with eating all the time. So I dropped the calories again. I'm spinning my wheels. I have an ED history too so that makes things tricky.
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To cut is staying in a deficit0
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9
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Update:
Start 212 lbs
end week 1: 209
end week 2: 204.5
end week 3: 202
end week 4: 200.8
Abs fully visible but I'll probably go another couple of weeks since I'm still not hating life yet.
Still going full volume on workouts. No cardio. Added back in some bi/tri accessories to Monday and Friday. I think the fish oil supplementation is working - as my joints are no "crunchier" than normal.
btw: What ever happened to @LiftHeavyThings27105 ? He started an RFL and then just fell off the face of the earth... well, MFP at least, after just a couple of updates. I wonder if it worked out for him.2 -
About to do a little mini cut, about ten lbs. I like to carb cycle along with calorie restriction obviously. Three days low, followed by one high. Seems to do the trick for me.1
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Sept 10th - 166.6 lbs
Oct 6th - 164.2lbs
Oct 14th - 161.4lbs
Still going for a bit longer just for the leeway...another 1.5lbs then maintenance for comp. 5 weeks to go...1 -
Ok, now two of you are exceeding the conventional 1/2 lb per week conventional cut goal... any comments on that?
My comment is that I've been (sort of) cutting at 1/2 lb per week since April and all my lifts (squat, deadlift, press, bench) are down significantly. Maybe I'd be better off if I hit my cut harder so I could get back to bulking sooner so I could try to ratchet my lifts back up? My goal is strength (lifts go up!) and I was only cutting so I could rest/deload/nurse a minor injury and lose some body fat so that I could start a slow bulk again. I'm leaner but considerably weaker...you guys experience that? (Admittedly, I train less, sleep less, eat inferior, and am probably older than you). Thanks for any comments.0 -
Yeah I've been so up and down this last month... Considering tapering back the weights and just running like a madman again lol...
I've always been curious how celebrities lean out after eating 5k+ calories a day for months...
I know many will starve themselves and dehydrate down before a shoot like a boxer before a weigh in, a week or two out...
Yeah no lol1 -
billkansas wrote: »Ok, now two of you are exceeding the conventional 1/2 lb per week conventional cut goal... any comments on that?
My comment is that I've been (sort of) cutting at 1/2 lb per week since April and all my lifts (squat, deadlift, press, bench) are down significantly. Maybe I'd be better off if I hit my cut harder so I could get back to bulking sooner so I could try to ratchet my lifts back up? My goal is strength (lifts go up!) and I was only cutting so I could rest/deload/nurse a minor injury and lose some body fat so that I could start a slow bulk again. I'm leaner but considerably weaker...you guys experience that? (Admittedly, I train less, sleep less, eat inferior, and am probably older than you). Thanks for any comments.
From what I have read, up to 1% of your bodyweight per week is fine, more than that and you start to get into more muscle loss, especially as you get leaner. Not that it isn't done, but generally not recommended for long periods of time.
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Also truth is, tracking calories has never really worked well for me... I always end up convincing myself that I need to eat more than I would have if I didn't track at all...
Lost 180lbs and never tracked a thing, it's only since I started tracking that I've had trouble losing.
It was (atleast I think) helpful for tracking while gaining to make sure I wasn't going crazy over... But then again, I bet just a few extra pieces of fruit and yogurt would have been enough... Maybe it would have worked out better for me without this stupid app lol...0 -
@Mr_Healthy_Habits tracking is definitely not for everyone. It was helpful for me at first to get a grasp on how much or how little I was actually eating, and make sure I got enough protein. But what I found was I would avoid certain foods, even nutritious foods if I couldn't find an entry for it or didn't have access to weigh it etc. I started to stay with certain foods that I knew and avoided variety. That is when I was like, ok enough this isn't feeling good for me. Now I don't track, sometimes I check in, but I have other strategies I use to stay in a deficit, maintain or bulk. So far so good!1
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billkansas wrote: »Ok, now two of you are exceeding the conventional 1/2 lb per week conventional cut goal... any comments on that?
https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html/
I've cut two times with a very large deficit. I've lost zero strength in either cut. However, I will add a caveat: I'm on a heavy TRT protocol... which from my research does help retain muscle in a deficit. My issue hasn't been loss of muscle or strength - I've lost zero strength... but the effect a large deficit has on my joints. I skimped on the heavy fish oil recommendations the first time. This time around I've taken the recommended dose (about 10 caps a day) and my joints seem to be holding up nicely.
One of the things that has changed recently is the recommendation to always maintain your intensity (weight on the bar) during a cut. Reduce volume and frequency if needed but keep MV. Do not go high rep low weight... you WILL lose muscle.
I was dubious and bit paranoid my first attempt at this - but it worked, for me. I'm enjoying the process much more this time around.
edit: Change MEV to MV
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/training-volume-landmarks-muscle-growth/1 -
So if I'm cutting at 1/2 lb per week at 2500 calories per day, how many calories per day to get to 2 lb per week (or 1% of my body weight) cut? Probably should try to stay below 2000 calories per day I guess? Thanks for your comments.0
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billkansas wrote: »So if I'm cutting at 1/2 lb per week at 2500 calories per day, how many calories per day to get to 2 lb per week (or 1% of my body weight) cut? Probably should try to stay below 2000 calories per day I guess? Thanks for your comments.
If I'm not mistaken, if you are losing 0.5lb per week at 2500cals, going to 2000cals would have you lose about 1.5lbs per week. So yea, 1750 would be about 2lbs per week. I mean, if your calculations are correct for your stats of course.0 -
@Mr_Healthy_Habits tracking is definitely not for everyone. It was helpful for me at first to get a grasp on how much or how little I was actually eating, and make sure I got enough protein. But what I found was I would avoid certain foods, even nutritious foods if I couldn't find an entry for it or didn't have access to weigh it etc. I started to stay with certain foods that I knew and avoided variety. That is when I was like, ok enough this isn't feeling good for me. Now I don't track, sometimes I check in, but I have other strategies I use to stay in a deficit, maintain or bulk. So far so good!
I soooo relate...
Oh the eye rolls I get whenever I suggest one of a few places for lunch or dinner that has calorie info listed on the menu... Togo's is my best food friend when away from home lol...
Never got a food scale tho, I'm just a guy in my garage, never have worked with nor have I ever claimed to be a professional and this is just a hobby (more of a passion at this point). If I'm going to stay in shape for life, I want to be able to do this without measuring what I eat.
It's an inexact science imho anyhow... Maybe not the calorie counting, but rather the whole energy balance aspect... Sure I can be fairly accurate about consumption but how do I really know I burned 3k calories today, sure that's what the tracker says but I've always been skeptical.1 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »@Mr_Healthy_Habits tracking is definitely not for everyone. It was helpful for me at first to get a grasp on how much or how little I was actually eating, and make sure I got enough protein. But what I found was I would avoid certain foods, even nutritious foods if I couldn't find an entry for it or didn't have access to weigh it etc. I started to stay with certain foods that I knew and avoided variety. That is when I was like, ok enough this isn't feeling good for me. Now I don't track, sometimes I check in, but I have other strategies I use to stay in a deficit, maintain or bulk. So far so good!
I soooo relate...
Oh the eye rolls I get whenever I suggest one of a few places for lunch or dinner that has calorie info listed on the menu... Togo's is my best food friend when away from home lol...
Never got a food scale tho, I'm just a guy in my garage, never have worked with nor have I ever claimed to be a professional and this is just a hobby (more of a passion at this point). If I'm going to stay in shape for life, I want to be able to do this without measuring what I eat.
It's an inexact science imho anyhow... Maybe not the calorie counting, but rather the whole energy balance aspect... Sure I can be fairly accurate about consumption but how do I really know I burned 3k calories today, sure that's what the tracker says but I've always been skeptical.
Well with that last point, over time you would know based on what your weight does. Which is also difficult because of fluctuations. But... with a trend weight you get a really good idea of what is going on. That is how I know if I am in a surplus, maintenance or deficit... it isn't immediate, obviously, but over the course of a few weeks I know what is going on.1 -
billkansas wrote: »Ok, now two of you are exceeding the conventional 1/2 lb per week conventional cut goal... any comments on that?
My comment is that I've been (sort of) cutting at 1/2 lb per week since April and all my lifts (squat, deadlift, press, bench) are down significantly. Maybe I'd be better off if I hit my cut harder so I could get back to bulking sooner so I could try to ratchet my lifts back up? My goal is strength (lifts go up!) and I was only cutting so I could rest/deload/nurse a minor injury and lose some body fat so that I could start a slow bulk again. I'm leaner but considerably weaker...you guys experience that? (Admittedly, I train less, sleep less, eat inferior, and am probably older than you). Thanks for any comments.
Conventional dieting applies to the general public and those who do not have fairly advanced knowledge/education in dieting. Aiming for .5 - 1% per week is a pretty good start. If one is knowledgeable, and a little insane, than following specific protocols like RFL, UD2, etc... (essentially stuff from Lyle McDonald) become an option. They tend to be fairly aggressive and takes a lot of patience.3 -
Thank you. I think I'll try to stay below 2000 calories see how it goes... 1750 just sounds awful.1
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billkansas wrote: »Thank you. I think I'll try to stay below 2000 calories see how it goes... 1750 just sounds awful.
RFL would kill you then.. It's like 600 - 1200 on cutting days.
I really need to read that book again.0 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »@Mr_Healthy_Habits tracking is definitely not for everyone. It was helpful for me at first to get a grasp on how much or how little I was actually eating, and make sure I got enough protein. But what I found was I would avoid certain foods, even nutritious foods if I couldn't find an entry for it or didn't have access to weigh it etc. I started to stay with certain foods that I knew and avoided variety. That is when I was like, ok enough this isn't feeling good for me. Now I don't track, sometimes I check in, but I have other strategies I use to stay in a deficit, maintain or bulk. So far so good!
I soooo relate...
Oh the eye rolls I get whenever I suggest one of a few places for lunch or dinner that has calorie info listed on the menu... Togo's is my best food friend when away from home lol...
Never got a food scale tho, I'm just a guy in my garage, never have worked with nor have I ever claimed to be a professional and this is just a hobby (more of a passion at this point). If I'm going to stay in shape for life, I want to be able to do this without measuring what I eat.
It's an inexact science imho anyhow... Maybe not the calorie counting, but rather the whole energy balance aspect... Sure I can be fairly accurate about consumption but how do I really know I burned 3k calories today, sure that's what the tracker says but I've always been skeptical.
Well with that last point, over time you would know based on what your weight does. Which is also difficult because of fluctuations. But... with a trend weight you get a really good idea of what is going on. That is how I know if I am in a surplus, maintenance or deficit... it isn't immediate, obviously, but over the course of a few weeks I know what is going on.
You're right... For me it's always been like a ball bounce down a flight of stairs, unfortunately not linear... I still stick to pretty much the same foods most days and don't really think I avoid things (outside of fast food) as much as I use to.
But I can't say I'm not guilty of passing on dinner so I can make something else I can more easily track nutritious or not...
Calorie counting is such a double edged sword for me... On one hand it's allowed to make peace with what I eat, on the other hand, it keeps me from it.
Although maybe that is in fact, balance...1 -
billkansas wrote: »Ok, now two of you are exceeding the conventional 1/2 lb per week conventional cut goal... any comments on that?
I am doing a larger deficit for a short time, as I need to make weight for a competition (strongman) next month. Just making sure I get there with plenty of leeway, no surprises. Strength still going up and muscle mass not being lost as far as I can tell...I have been keeping intensity up and volume lower as pointed out by jseams1234 and it it working a treat, energy is up there, better than when I was in hypertrophy or other phases last year...hunger is obviously way up there though, ha! p.s. I am 44 @billkansas
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My lifts are down, but starting to see my abs for the first time at age 49 is pretty cool. My wife has also been quite complimentary lately . In sum, I think I'm going to try and keep cuts short by hitting them harder (1.5 to 2 lbs per week or around 1% of my body weight). I know that at the beginning of my cut I was boasting about "no strength loss" but it seems like the longer it has dragged on (6 months now) the harder it has been and the more my lifts have suffered. I'm trying to offer this as my experience as an older, intermediate lifter, who's programming is not optimal. My goal is to get into the 1000 lb club while working out no more than two days per week. This cut is key I think as I'm trying to get my weight low enough that I can go on an extended, slow bulk and crush 1000 lbs once and for all next year. I've lost 15 lbs so far... probably got another 10 to lose. 3
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