Supersetting: weight session and cardio all in one?
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I like that type of work. I like to use KBs to do it. They are great from moving quickly from one exercise to another. I'd use two 35 lbs KBs and do something like deadlifts (I know those aren't heavy for that but, hey, I'm 54 with cruddy knees), use my knees to assist them up the shoulders, do squats, then bend over and use them for double bent over rows, then military presses (perhaps some double KB swings too). All in quick succession. Sounds light and sounds easy but mix that in with something like jogging on a Stairmaster, heavy ropes and rowing spints along with Plyo Box Jumps and it's a nasty workout.2
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Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.
Do I understand you correctly that shorter rest periods is better for hypertrophy? I am under the impression, possibly incorrectly, that volume was the prime driver of hypertrophy. I'm just thinking that if I was only resting, say, 60 seconds after a good set before hitting the next one, it would cut into my volume as I would fatigue sooner.
Interested in your perspective as I respect your opinion and your experience based on your posts.0 -
Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
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jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
Thanks! My performance is definitely affected by rest periods and I was curious about what others had to say.3 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
Thanks for that. It jives with my understanding.3 -
My understanding isn't near what some of yours is (I've never been that into bodybuilding/strength training), but I'm a competitive rower. If you're talking absolute strength, then longer rest periods. There are other elements to strength, like how many reps you can do in X amount of time. I guess, from my simpleton perspective, endurance strength. I've heard it called "power endurance".
There was a challenge out there a while ago, the 100 ton challenge. Lifters were making a big deal out of it. I do 50 tons (or more) daily on the rowing machine. Each row is (roughly) equivalent to 80 to 100 lbs, each stroke (there's an App called ErgData that tells you the average per lb. stroke on a C2 machine and it's incredibly accurate). On a 10K meter row, you do 1000 strokes, or roughly the equivalent of 50 tons lifting in around 40 minutes.
This type of supersetting is useful to me, not for pure power, but lactic acid tolerance and power endurance. I know a guy that's an online training buddy of mine that is the Australian over 60 record holder on the 2K row. He's insanely good (and would beat many high school and some college rowers) for his age. The Australian Olympic rowing team studied him to find out why he was so good and put him through a bunch of physical tests, something pretty cool for a guy that's over 60 (to be studied by one of the best rowing teams in the world). What they found out was, essentially, this guy had such a gigantic tolerance for lactic acid that he wouldn't quit when others would have long stopped because the pain.
If you saw the Cross Fit games this year, they added a marathon on the rower. The winning time was pretty amazing. To maintain that power for nearly 3 hours, not many lifters could even attempt that, no matter how strong. They dropped that in as a surprise!! If you didn't train Power endurance, you were screwed on that as a competitor.
I've been on a rowing machine at the gym (I'm 54 and not that peak strong) and smoked a former D1 Football player next to me that I know can deadlift over 500 lbs, as he was a trainer at the gym I got to know) on a 5K row. He couldn't handle the number of reps that rowing took on a 5K all out assault. Though his power per stroke were way more that I can manage, he kept having to take breaks over and over. Could hardly even pull at the end. I could probably only deadlift a little over my weight, I don't try with an old back any more.
I honestly think both types of training are useful I just don't have the back or knees anymore to do all out power training.
There are "drills" for speed in rowing that reflect the short/longer rest discussion. If you want to work speed and aerobic at the same time, you might do 100m sprints with 1 minute rest. If you want to work pure speed/power, you'll make the rest periods longer. Both accomplish different, but important goals.
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Ok, if 60 seconds is too little for you to hit adequate volume on the next set, then you should increase your rest periods. You could make use of shorter rest periods if you want to overload and burn out the muscle ( the same reason why things like drop sets exist).
Required rest periods can vary between individuals and the type of exercises. I need more rest for certain exercises than for others , and my required rest depends on my current stamina.
We shouldn't prescribe a set rule of 60s, 90s as if there's some magical specific number that you just have to hit.
The general rule is, take just enough rest time to enable you to hit the next set at full capacity.0 -
I personally gained the most upper body size, doing low to no rest high volume lifting. I would do pyramids 15,12,8 rest 30s 8,12,15. then rest 60s and change the movement. I would do 3 main movements, and 3 iso movements. I would use light medium and heavy dumbells. I don't think this method helped my legs much, mostly my arms and chest responded to this type of training. I feel my legs are gaining better with my current method which is 5x5 power lifting with lots of rest between sets. Like 3 or 4 mins on my last set. Also, while I gained a good amount of size in my upper body, I basically gained zero strength, I very rarely tried to increase my weights while progressing thru that program. This program required a lot endurance, and fortitude. It was less like strength training and more like survival. I don't really think there is a one size fits all method to building size. Its definitely not as figured out as gaining strength, that's for sure.0
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I agree with you if we are discussing either strength or hypertrophy the driver is volume at a useful intensity.Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.
Do I understand you correctly that shorter rest periods is better for hypertrophy? I am under the impression, possibly incorrectly, that volume was the prime driver of hypertrophy. I'm just thinking that if I was only resting, say, 60 seconds after a good set before hitting the next one, it would cut into my volume as I would fatigue sooner.
Interested in your perspective as I respect your opinion and your experience based on your posts.
In this case the OP is describing twenty minutes or less for five different exercises. Which isn't ideal, but there are ways to optimalize this situation.
1. Making the rest periods shorter with the appropriate amount of volume, but keeping the tonage lighter overall. By shrinking the rest periods this will drive the intensity to a useful level even though it relatively low when compared to the 1RM. It's been shown that even at 30% some lifters will respond well.
2. We could also utilze myo reps for the smaller muscles. Studies have shown that this is a very efficient way to produce hypertrophy when perform correctly. This utilizes about 15 seconds of rest after the initial activation set.
3. Time would be crunched in this situation but a another way is to set a timer to six minutes and do as many reps as possible while leaving one maybe two in the tank. This will get a good amount of volume with some autoregulation.
The idea with is getting close to failure while activating all the muscle fibers possible to achieve hypertrophy.
Obviously there are endless possibilities to how we achieve volume, intensity, and adequate recovery.
My recommendation is just one that on average would give a good response to most lifters with the hypertrophy primary goal.
* Edit to add~
* This would not mean you would use the exact same weight for each lift that you do currently, but a lighter but relative to the rep scheme/rest time.
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jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
There are many. Here is one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28617715
Once again, I'm not saying this is optimal for everyone or for full body, but in the case with time limits the OP posted, it is a option.0 -
I agree with you if we are discussing either strength or hypertrophy the driver is volume at a useful intensity.Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.
Do I understand you correctly that shorter rest periods is better for hypertrophy? I am under the impression, possibly incorrectly, that volume was the prime driver of hypertrophy. I'm just thinking that if I was only resting, say, 60 seconds after a good set before hitting the next one, it would cut into my volume as I would fatigue sooner.
Interested in your perspective as I respect your opinion and your experience based on your posts.
In this case the OP is describing twenty minutes or less for five different exercises. Which isn't ideal, but there are ways to optimalize this situation.
1. Making the rest periods shorter with the appropriate amount of volume, but keeping the tonage lighter overall. By shrinking the rest periods this will drive the intensity to a useful level even though it relatively low when compared to the 1RM. It's been shown that even at 30% some lifters will respond well.
2. We could also utilze myo reps for the smaller muscles. Studies have shown that this is a very efficient way to produce hypertrophy when perform correctly. This utilizes about 15 seconds of rest after the initial activation set.
3. Time would be crunched in this situation but a another way is to set a timer to six minutes and do as many reps as possible while leaving one maybe two in the tank. This will get a good amount of volume with some autoregulation.
The idea with is getting close to failure while activating all the muscle fibers possible to achieve hypertrophy.
Obviously there are endless possibilities to how we achieve volume, intensity, and adequate recovery.
My recommendation is just one that on average would give a good response to most lifters with the hypertrophy primary goal.
* Edit to add~
* This would not mean you would use the exact same weight for each lift that you do currently, but a lighter but relative to the rep scheme/rest time.
Thanks for the clarification. I get it now that you were giving options specifically for the OPs situation.3 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
There are many. Here is one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28617715
Once again, I'm not saying this is optimal for everyone or for full body, but in the case with time limits the OP posted, it is a option.
Interesting link - it seems primarly focused on the modality of "rest pause" training. It seems equivalent to traditional multi set training with built in rests... with the exception of the thigh muscles which seemed to have a better hypertrophic response to rest pause.
Outside of some specific applications (usually involving rest pause or drop sets), very short intervals tend to drastically decrease how much weight can be used.
... tension is the primary stimulus for growth and very short rest interval systems tend to be fatigue dominant instead of tension dominant. If anything, that hurts growth.2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
There are many. Here is one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28617715
Once again, I'm not saying this is optimal for everyone or for full body, but in the case with time limits the OP posted, it is a option.
Interesting link - it seems primarly focused on the modality of "rest pause" training. It seems equivalent to traditional multi set training with built in rests... with the exception of the thigh muscles which seemed to have a better hypertrophic response to rest pause.
Outside of some specific applications (usually involving rest pause or drop sets), very short intervals tend to drastically decrease how much weight can be used.
... tension is the primary stimulus for growth and very short rest interval systems tend to be fatigue dominant instead of tension dominant. If anything, that hurts growth.
My suggestions was to manage fatigue by different forms of auto regulation which is very useful and effective. Load management as always plays a card into the deal.
Again we are talking about the OP and his twenty minutes or less routine for five exercises allowing for hypertrophy to occur.
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