Intermittent Fasting
Replies
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Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
Again, since you are telling us the body works differently than we believe it does, can you tell us what qualifies you or where you learned this please?8 -
Well two perfectly logical explanations exist:
1. The body's hormones are capable of creating or destroying matter and energy at the whim of the intermittent fasting participant.
2. Some people in the study's sample were insulin resistant, and the reduction in insulin caused a reduction in their appetite, and subsequently a reduction in caloric intake that was not captured by the study.
If I were a gambling man, which I am, I would lay my money on number 2.
Also, those of us who are insulin resistant, 100 cals of candy will have different effects on our appetite (and balance, and heart rate, and the jack - hammer that it can trigger inside of our crania) than 100 cals of broccoli, but those differences do not include a greater metabolic advantage in terms of the energy derived from eating one vs. the other.
1.) see my previous response.
2.) insulin is not an appetite hormone (although ghrelin is). It’s a storage hormone, and there’s nothing inherently WRONG with it. Without it, humans wouldn’t have made it this far.
But, high levels of it for prolonged periods of time can make our cells resistant to its effects, so our body has to produce MORE insulin in order to get the same effect (like how it takes more and more alcohol to get the same amount of drunk over time). This creates a vicious circle.
IF helps break the cycle by lowering insulin levels for prolonged periods of time, slowly allowing your cells to once again become sensitive to its effects (like if you haven’t had a drink in a year, you’re back to getting that same amount of drunk with much less alcohol).8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
From that website:
yeah? exactly what we are sayingFor example, it (insulin) stimulates your muscles to build new protein (a process called protein synthesis). It also inhibits lipolysis (the breakdown of fat) and stimulates lipogenesis (the creation of fat).
That is, in fact, is a ketogenic diet he is talking about.In fact, if you truly wanted to keep insulin as low as possible, then you wouldn't eat a high protein diet...you would eat a low protein, low carbohydrate, high fat diet. However, I don't see anybody recommending that.
11 -
To be fair, again, calories in versus calories out DOES MATTER. You absolutely CAN “out-eat” an IF protocol by consuming enough calories to not only re-fill your short term storage, but also have enough left over after that to re-fill your long term storage that you burned while fasting, and then have even more left over to fill up even more fat cells that weren’t as full before.
You can totally do it!
It’s just more difficult, especially if you’re intermittent fasting every day.7 -
Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.5
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L1zardQueen wrote: »Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.
bodybuilders use insulin to build mass
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html
Also, they get a disgusting fat belly from using insulin. That's how you can tell that they are taking insulin.
8 -
So I guess we can assume there is no medical background involved, and the source of this version of how insulin works wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.13
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Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
Here's some enlightenment:
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/95/4/989/45769028 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!11 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
I wouldn't be hanging my hat on what Fung has said.8 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Well two perfectly logical explanations exist:
1. The body's hormones are capable of creating or destroying matter and energy at the whim of the intermittent fasting participant.
2. Some people in the study's sample were insulin resistant, and the reduction in insulin caused a reduction in their appetite, and subsequently a reduction in caloric intake that was not captured by the study.
If I were a gambling man, which I am, I would lay my money on number 2.
Also, those of us who are insulin resistant, 100 cals of candy will have different effects on our appetite (and balance, and heart rate, and the jack - hammer that it can trigger inside of our crania) than 100 cals of broccoli, but those differences do not include a greater metabolic advantage in terms of the energy derived from eating one vs. the other.
1.) see my previous response.
2.) insulin is not an appetite hormone (although ghrelin is). It’s a storage hormone, and there’s nothing inherently WRONG with it. Without it, humans wouldn’t have made it this far.
But, high levels of it for prolonged periods of time can make our cells resistant to its effects, so our body has to produce MORE insulin in order to get the same effect (like how it takes more and more alcohol to get the same amount of drunk over time). This creates a vicious circle.
IF helps break the cycle by lowering insulin levels for prolonged periods of time, slowly allowing your cells to once again become sensitive to its effects (like if you haven’t had a drink in a year, you’re back to getting that same amount of drunk with much less alcohol).
What is your source for claims in 2 being the cause of insulin resistance? All medical sources I've read state otherwise.8 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.12 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Vetting one's sources is a valuable skill.
Fung's output is roundly derided by just about everyone knowledgeable in the medical community.
I have nothing whatsoever against IF. I do it myself.
I just don't think I'm getting any magical benefits from it and think it's hurtful and counterproductive for other people to think that they are.
If it helps you stick to your goals, isn't that reason enough to do it?12 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »lowcarbmale wrote: »By the way: I believe the burden of proof to show that intermittent fasting does have the same effect as continuous eating lays on your side, not ours.
The most logic thing to assume is that when you do things differently you can't expect to get the same results.
Therefore I would really be interested in studies that investigate this topic on humans and come to the conclusion that intermittent fasting (16/4, 20/4, 23/1, alternate day fasting etc.) do not create metabolic changes in human beings.
@mmapags
Well the burden of proof is on those making the claims of benefit but, I'll play.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/
Ignoring the animal studies (because you said you wanted human ones), and any and all “modified fasting” scenarios (because that’s not what we’re talking about here), it seems like the study you provided is fairly clear on its opinion of IF:
“It appears that almost any intermittent fasting regimen can result in some weight loss. Among the 13 intervention trials included in this review, 11 (84.6%) reported statistically significant weight loss ranging from 1.3% in a cross-over trial with a 2 week intervention23 to 8.0% in a 1-arm trial of 8 weeks duration.13”
Some people only see what they want to see.
From the study I posted:
"Because much of the data on intermittent fasting is from research in animal models, we briefly summarize key rodent studies and reviews."
And
"Research to date has not demonstrated that alternate day fasting regimens produce superior weight loss in comparison to standard, continuous calorie restriction weight loss plans.
There are limited data from human studies to support the robust rodent data regarding the positive impacts of time-restricted feeding (i.e., eating patterns aligned with normal circadian rhythms) on weight or metabolic health."
It seems that some pick their data to confirm their conclusions as opposed to letting the data lead them to conclusions. There are no demonstrable metabolic advantages to human from intermittent fasting proven to date. There is reason for greater studies based on the animal studies. Animal studies do not convert to effectiveness in humans a large % of the time. Those are the facts.
The only things proven about IF to date are that it is a great calorie management tool and it can be beneficial for those who are insulin resistant. The rest is just speculation at this point and some of the claims in this thread are just signal noise.
10 -
lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.
bodybuilders use insulin to build mass
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html
Also, they get a disgusting fat belly from using insulin. That's how you can tell that they are taking insulin.
Need a study, an actual study, not something from Bodybuildingdotcom. Those guys are still at 5% bodyfat. Please explain their very low body fat.3 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.
bodybuilders use insulin to build mass
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html
Also, they get a disgusting fat belly from using insulin. That's how you can tell that they are taking insulin.
Need a study, an actual study, not something from Bodybuildingdotcom. Those guys are still at 5% bodyfat. Please explain their very low body fat.
Then go look for one. They are far away from 5% bodyfat. They probably take a bunch of other steroids to reduce the amount of fat while keeping that large amount of muscle. Usually bodybuilders "cut" before a show, meaning they go on very disciplined diets to reduce the amount of fat in a short time. Getting to 5% bodyfat is extremely hard but totally possible (for a man) if you eat right and train hard.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Well two perfectly logical explanations exist:
1. The body's hormones are capable of creating or destroying matter and energy at the whim of the intermittent fasting participant.
2. Some people in the study's sample were insulin resistant, and the reduction in insulin caused a reduction in their appetite, and subsequently a reduction in caloric intake that was not captured by the study.
If I were a gambling man, which I am, I would lay my money on number 2.
Also, those of us who are insulin resistant, 100 cals of candy will have different effects on our appetite (and balance, and heart rate, and the jack - hammer that it can trigger inside of our crania) than 100 cals of broccoli, but those differences do not include a greater metabolic advantage in terms of the energy derived from eating one vs. the other.
1.) see my previous response.
2.) insulin is not an appetite hormone (although ghrelin is). It’s a storage hormone, and there’s nothing inherently WRONG with it. Without it, humans wouldn’t have made it this far.
But, high levels of it for prolonged periods of time can make our cells resistant to its effects, so our body has to produce MORE insulin in order to get the same effect (like how it takes more and more alcohol to get the same amount of drunk over time). This creates a vicious circle.
IF helps break the cycle by lowering insulin levels for prolonged periods of time, slowly allowing your cells to once again become sensitive to its effects (like if you haven’t had a drink in a year, you’re back to getting that same amount of drunk with much less alcohol).
What is your source for claims in 2 being the cause of insulin resistance? All medical sources I've read state otherwise.
That high levels over prolonged periods of time create resistance? Isn’t that how most things work in the body? Alcohol, drugs, sustained loud noises, etc.?8 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Well two perfectly logical explanations exist:
1. The body's hormones are capable of creating or destroying matter and energy at the whim of the intermittent fasting participant.
2. Some people in the study's sample were insulin resistant, and the reduction in insulin caused a reduction in their appetite, and subsequently a reduction in caloric intake that was not captured by the study.
If I were a gambling man, which I am, I would lay my money on number 2.
Also, those of us who are insulin resistant, 100 cals of candy will have different effects on our appetite (and balance, and heart rate, and the jack - hammer that it can trigger inside of our crania) than 100 cals of broccoli, but those differences do not include a greater metabolic advantage in terms of the energy derived from eating one vs. the other.
1.) see my previous response.
2.) insulin is not an appetite hormone (although ghrelin is). It’s a storage hormone, and there’s nothing inherently WRONG with it. Without it, humans wouldn’t have made it this far.
But, high levels of it for prolonged periods of time can make our cells resistant to its effects, so our body has to produce MORE insulin in order to get the same effect (like how it takes more and more alcohol to get the same amount of drunk over time). This creates a vicious circle.
IF helps break the cycle by lowering insulin levels for prolonged periods of time, slowly allowing your cells to once again become sensitive to its effects (like if you haven’t had a drink in a year, you’re back to getting that same amount of drunk with much less alcohol).
What is your source for claims in 2 being the cause of insulin resistance? All medical sources I've read state otherwise.
That high levels over prolonged periods of time create resistance? Isn’t that how most things work in the body? Alcohol, drugs, sustained loud noises, etc.?
So you have no source.4 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
How are calories "accessed" or "not accessed"?
Sooo, if the "compartment" is the known universe, some calories can be "willed" into an alternate parallel universe by skipping breakfast?
7 -
lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.
bodybuilders use insulin to build mass
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html
Also, they get a disgusting fat belly from using insulin. That's how you can tell that they are taking insulin.
Need a study, an actual study, not something from Bodybuildingdotcom. Those guys are still at 5% bodyfat. Please explain their very low body fat.
Then go look for one. They are far away from 5% bodyfat. They probably take a bunch of other steroids to reduce the amount of fat while keeping that large amount of muscle. Usually bodybuilders "cut" before a show, meaning they go on very disciplined diets to reduce the amount of fat in a short time. Getting to 5% bodyfat is extremely hard but totally possible (for a man) if you eat right and train hard.
I'm looking, help me out.1 -
about what exactly? That high levels of insulin cause the body to store fat?L1zardQueen wrote: »lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »lowcarbmale wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Show us one study that shows people eating less than they burn and gaining weight, and one that shows people eating more than they burn and losing weight. Do not bodybuilders inject insulin and get to sub 5% bodyfat.
bodybuilders use insulin to build mass
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html
Also, they get a disgusting fat belly from using insulin. That's how you can tell that they are taking insulin.
Need a study, an actual study, not something from Bodybuildingdotcom. Those guys are still at 5% bodyfat. Please explain their very low body fat.
Then go look for one. They are far away from 5% bodyfat. They probably take a bunch of other steroids to reduce the amount of fat while keeping that large amount of muscle. Usually bodybuilders "cut" before a show, meaning they go on very disciplined diets to reduce the amount of fat in a short time. Getting to 5% bodyfat is extremely hard but totally possible (for a man) if you eat right and train hard.
I'm looking, help me out.
6 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.
To be fair, I’m stating things as I understand them.
So far you’ve said that many professionals would disagree with me, which is fine, except that you haven’t said what they’d disagree with. Everything?
I’ve seen lots of studies talk about energy balance without going any deeper, but (and this just an example) if calories in versus calories out is truly the end all be all, shouldn’t diet soft drinks with zero calories have made a positive impact? Why do type 2 diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin doses? Why do the overwhelming majority of eat less / move more diets fail in the long term? (and if the answer is willpower, why have we as a society become so morally defunct over the past 50 years or so?)
Haven’t you ever thought there might be more to it?4 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.
To be fair, I’m stating things as I understand them.
So far you’ve said that many professionals would disagree with me, which is fine, except that you haven’t said what they’d disagree with. Everything?
I’ve seen lots of studies talk about energy balance without going any deeper, but (and this just an example) if calories in versus calories out is truly the end all be all, shouldn’t diet soft drinks with zero calories have made a positive impact? Why do type 2 diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin doses? Why do the overwhelming majority of eat less / move more diets fail in the long term? (and if the answer is willpower, why have we as a society become so morally defunct over the past 50 years or so?)
Haven’t you ever thought there might be more to it?
I think it is mostly due to all the misinformation that is thrown about. You need to be in a calorie deficit, you need to count calories or whatever gets you into a deficit. When one puts the weight back on, it's most likely that they didn't understand how weight loss occurs. A deficit.4 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.
To be fair, I’m stating things as I understand them.
So far you’ve said that many professionals would disagree with me, which is fine, except that you haven’t said what they’d disagree with. Everything?
I’ve seen lots of studies talk about energy balance without going any deeper, but (and this just an example) if calories in versus calories out is truly the end all be all, shouldn’t diet soft drinks with zero calories have made a positive impact? Why do type 2 diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin doses? Why do the overwhelming majority of eat less / move more diets fail in the long term? (and if the answer is willpower, why have we as a society become so morally defunct over the past 50 years or so?)
Haven’t you ever thought there might be more to it?
I think it is mostly due to all the misinformation that is thrown about. You need to be in a calorie deficit, you need to count calories or whatever gets you into a deficit. When one puts the weight back on, it's most likely that they didn't understand how weight loss occurs. A deficit.
And diet soda doesn't magically create one. So, no I don't think there is more to it. What tools one uses can be different but it all comes down to energy balance.4 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
How are calories "accessed" or "not accessed"?
Sooo, if the "compartment" is the known universe, some calories can be "willed" into an alternate parallel universe by skipping breakfast?
Disclaimer: I’m just a guy that read stuff on the interwebs. (For comment section legal reasons I must include that information.)
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: excess food energy is stored as fat. Insulin prevents the breakdown of fat for energy. Therefore if insulin levels are raised, the energy that has been stored as fat is unavailable at that time.
I have no idea what you’re talking about with parallel universes.2 -
Gut bacteria also plays a pretty big role in your digestion / fat loss
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/gut-bacteria-and-weight#section1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28883543
The gut bacteria constantly adapts to the way we eat, including high sugar diets, low carb diets, high protein diets, high fat diets, eating 6 meals a day, intermittent fasting etc..
But that is another piece in debunking the CICO dogma and a topic / discussion that you can research for yourself if you are interested in it.
16 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
How are calories "accessed" or "not accessed"?
Sooo, if the "compartment" is the known universe, some calories can be "willed" into an alternate parallel universe by skipping breakfast?
Disclaimer: I’m just a guy that read stuff on the interwebs. (For comment section legal reasons I must include that information.)
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: excess food energy is stored as fat. Insulin prevents the breakdown of fat for energy. Therefore if insulin levels are raised, the energy that has been stored as fat is unavailable at that time.
I have no idea what you’re talking about with parallel universes.
You do realize that insulin levels rise after meals and fall between meals right? And are low at night after the last meal and before breakfast? And how would insulin cause a net fat storage in a calorie deficit?8 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
How are calories "accessed" or "not accessed"?
Sooo, if the "compartment" is the known universe, some calories can be "willed" into an alternate parallel universe by skipping breakfast?
Disclaimer: I’m just a guy that read stuff on the interwebs. (For comment section legal reasons I must include that information.)
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: excess food energy is stored as fat. Insulin prevents the breakdown of fat for energy. Therefore if insulin levels are raised, the energy that has been stored as fat is unavailable at that time.
I have no idea what you’re talking about with parallel universes.
You do realize that insulin levels rise after meals and fall between meals right? And are low at night after the last meal and before breakfast? And how would insulin cause a net fat storage in a calorie deficit?
What? JK2 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.
To be fair, I’m stating things as I understand them.
So far you’ve said that many professionals would disagree with me, which is fine, except that you haven’t said what they’d disagree with. Everything?
I’ve seen lots of studies talk about energy balance without going any deeper, but (and this just an example) if calories in versus calories out is truly the end all be all, shouldn’t diet soft drinks with zero calories have made a positive impact? Why do type 2 diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin doses? Why do the overwhelming majority of eat less / move more diets fail in the long term? (and if the answer is willpower, why have we as a society become so morally defunct over the past 50 years or so?)
Haven’t you ever thought there might be more to it?
Insulin being released into the blood stream after eating, ushering sugar into the cells that need energy and storing extra in fat cells, and then subsiding is a perfectly normal and healthy process that doesn't need to be limited to a specific time period. Insulin levels have time to drop in between meals and snacks in a more traditional eating schedule. Insulin resistance occurs when someone is consistently overburdening their system with too much and too high sugar food for extended periods of time, not someone eating a reasonable amount of food on a normal schedule.
Diet drinks do have a positive result for some people, they were actually instrumental in me cutting 150 cals per day out of my budget. There are lots of reasons they don't correlate to weight loss - but if people aren't tracking calories, it's really easy for them to unwittingly eat more to make up the saved calories, often because they feel they deserve a reward for switching to diet. Also, most of those studies are merely demographic, and obviously at any given time there will be a number of overweight people just starting to try to lose weight who are drinking diet soda but are still overweight. If the diet isn't calorie controlled, there is no way to know whether switching to diet soda actually successfully causes an overall calorie deduction.
I am not a doctor, so I'm not sure it's true that diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin or why that would be.
The majority of ALL diets fail because people focus on losing weight and never plan for maintenance. They eat foods they don't like, schedules that aren't practical for them, take up fitness routines they can't sustain. They aren't patient enough. They don't take the time to learn how to eat and exercise comfortably and practically at the right calorie level for the rest of their life. They just white knuckle it to goal weight, pat themselves on the back, and then go right back to their old ways. Learning through trial and error from my food log and noting how different foods/macros/workouts/schedules made me feel was instrumental in my so far 2 years of maintenance.
We haven't become morally challenged in the last 50 years - we have been inundated with cheap yummy food and pushed into the sitting position by technology over the last 50 years. And we haven't quite adapted to it yet.
I honestly don't think there is more to it. In fact I think the current "pop" medicine health & fitness industry has made it all far too complicated. People spend too much time chasing all these different theories. The problem is we are for the most part surrounded by cheap hyper-palatable food and live too sedentary a lifestyle. By logging my food and slowly becoming more active, I and a lot of the veterans here have managed to start to flip the script on maintenance success, at least it seems that way to me. And alot of veterans here do essentially practice IF for appetite control.
I'd like to add, as I said recently in another IF thread, some of the theories circulating around IF right now (and more extreme fasting) are fascinating. And if someone wants to do IF in the hopes that some of these theories pan out, I can totally understand that. It's the stating as supposedly obvious scientific fact something that was suggested in one limited study or on rodents that I feel the need to push back.17 -
fair enough0
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