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“Large” Restaurant Customers need special accommodation?
Replies
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Samquentin wrote: »I've been on both sides. I was a size 26 (313 lbs), now am a size 2 (142 lbs).... at 313 I couldn't fit into regular booths, and always asked for a table. now at 142, the booths I could fit in at 313, are uncomfortable for me now, as I am SO FAR AWAY from the table.
lol @ being so far away from the table!.....and kudos to you on the weight loss. Good Job!2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Yes, in my experience, any discomfort I ever experience in a restaurant or other public setting is due to me being relatively short. As a slender person, it already seems like the world is built for me. Airline seats, restaurant seating, movie theatre seats, etc . . . I can't think of a single situation where I've thought "This would be more comfortable if I weighed more."
I have been obese 90% of my life and my biggest issue was then and is now being under 5'4. I'm almost 5'1 and can barely touch the ground in most chairs...6 -
funjen1972 wrote: »Just throwing this out for considerstion, not my opinion...
I identify as a tall slender female (ha!). Should restaurants have seating which prevents my knees from hitting the underside of a table? Should bar stools always have padding since I don't have much of my own? Should the distance between chairs be closer so I can be a comfortable distance to the others in my party?
I identify as a lefted handed person (ha!). Should we switch the orientation of place settings, water glass and silverware? Should the TP be on the other side of the stall? Should door handles be changed to the other side?
What about if I identify as a great tipper, a horrible tipper, a fast eater, a slow eater, a yeller, a rude patron, a very short person, a drunk, allergic to 10000 things, a (insert anything here)... Should I be accommodated?
Just some thoughts to ponder...
I'm going to go out on a wild limb and say as a tall slender female, the world in general is probably designed to cater to you more than an obese person.
For a weight loss site, there's an interesting amount of casual anti-fat bias on here sometimes.
I'd say, for making an educated business decision about their investments and budget, any business will find that a larger proportion of people is in fact not large... That's a risk that they will take.
A 'weight loss' site is alway little bit 'anti fat' by nature.... There is no special bias involved, I'm sure...
Yeah, I don't think the post that mentioned tall slender people was exhibiting anti-fat bias. I thought she was taking the argument to the extreme as a way of asking how far we should go in expecting a restaurant to cater to individual physical characteristics.
And to add to this, I'm just guessing, but I don't think we are talking about people who are just into the obese category, like around 200 lbs. Are we? While lots of folks are in the overweight/obese category, is the % who are closer to the 300+ lb range statistically numerous? At 200 lbs, do people have issues with restaurant seating?
I think, even the number 200 is relative.. At 6'2" and at the time close to 200 lbs, my father-in-law didn't fit into much of anything..car seats, airplane seats, restaurant booths... The challenge is 3-dimensional...
Well, I liked the idea that one poster gave a few messages up.....Perhaps some durable conversion seating might be possible for restaurants to invest in. When the word gets around, they would become known for accomodating those of a larger size and make more money which is their objective.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Yes, in my experience, any discomfort I ever experience in a restaurant or other public setting is due to me being relatively short. As a slender person, it already seems like the world is built for me. Airline seats, restaurant seating, movie theatre seats, etc . . . I can't think of a single situation where I've thought "This would be more comfortable if I weighed more."
I have been obese 90% of my life and my biggest issue was then and is now being under 5'4. I'm almost 5'1 and can barely touch the ground in most chairs...
I'm a bit taller, but it's still an issue for me sometimes. Especially in office chairs. If I'm lucky, they've got the little adjustment handle underneath the seat . . .0 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »funjen1972 wrote: »Just throwing this out for considerstion, not my opinion...
I identify as a tall slender female (ha!). Should restaurants have seating which prevents my knees from hitting the underside of a table? Should bar stools always have padding since I don't have much of my own? Should the distance between chairs be closer so I can be a comfortable distance to the others in my party?
I identify as a lefted handed person (ha!). Should we switch the orientation of place settings, water glass and silverware? Should the TP be on the other side of the stall? Should door handles be changed to the other side?
What about if I identify as a great tipper, a horrible tipper, a fast eater, a slow eater, a yeller, a rude patron, a very short person, a drunk, allergic to 10000 things, a (insert anything here)... Should I be accommodated?
Just some thoughts to ponder...
I agree with you. I just dont think its possible to be able to accommodate every fat person that walks in the door. Yes ALL people need and should be treated with respect, but its just not possible to acquiesce and satisfy the exigency of every soul that demands or asks of it.
No one is asked to satisfy every kind of customer, but it's smart to try to accommodate the majority. It's not hard to do, either. Provide sturdy chairs that don't have armrests and the vast majority of people will find them okay, plus, a sturdy chair will last longer.
I don't think restaurant owners maliciously choose uncomfortable seating arrangements on purpose to shame fat people into losing weight, and I don't think it's a discrimination issue. It's more like shortsightedness and not being very observant since the reality is that the average customer is getting bigger in general, regardless of the owner's opinion on the matter.12 -
Samquentin wrote: »I've been on both sides. I was a size 26 (313 lbs), now am a size 2 (142 lbs).... at 313 I couldn't fit into regular booths, and always asked for a table. now at 142, the booths I could fit in at 313, are uncomfortable for me now, as I am SO FAR AWAY from the table.
This is the case for me too, although I'm not as small as you are. I sometimes feel surprised at how large things still feel, years after losing the weight. The only time I really had trouble around 300 lb was in certain theaters when seeing live shows, usually very old buildings with small seats, all I could think about was my thighs pressing against the sides of the seats and whether my arms and torso fat was touching my companion(s). It was awful but it was one of many things that served as a wake up call and motivated me to change things.
On the other hand, I'm ALL about accessibility for as many people as possible. Everyone, ideally.4 -
congrats on your wdight lost @seltzermint5551
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Samquentin wrote: »I've been on both sides. I was a size 26 (313 lbs), now am a size 2 (142 lbs).... at 313 I couldn't fit into regular booths, and always asked for a table. now at 142, the booths I could fit in at 313, are uncomfortable for me now, as I am SO FAR AWAY from the table.
I haven’t been that large, but I’ve always been sensitive to my parents’ need for a table not a booth, etc. I’m smaller than I used to be, and what kinda freaks me out is the seats on rollercoasters. I took my 5to on a Disney one he was plenty tall enough for, but both of us had a good 1’ of space between us and the lap bar. I was bracing myself hard to not fly across the seat and bruise myself on the sides during sharp turns, while holding onto him for dear life (I’m sorry, a seat designed for 300lvs + just doesn’t accommodate someone 128 lbs with a 45lb child and let us feel safe).
The restaurant seats...I can deal with feeling like a kid, although if I were on a business lunch and trying to be taken seriously by a larger man while my feet dangled above the ground...that might bother me.9 -
I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
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manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹22 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
"Shaming fat people and making them feel like crap about themselves" is not actually something that is being done for their best interests, as an FYI.34 -
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I completely agree. Saying obesity should be treated like disability doesn't make much sense because it is something they can change. It is not something that they were born with or cannot control.
It takes away some of the motivation to lose weight. If I had always fit into booths and never had to worry I probably wouldn't of had half the motivation I did to lose weight. It was BECAUSE I felt squished and was limited to fit into "normal size" areas that I realized I had a problem, needed to lose, and is what motivated me.
There are other things considered disability that are a lifestyle disease, such that a person can or could have changed it. I would find it odd to say we can't accommodate the person using an oxygen tank if it is the result of them having been a smoker, but we can do so if they had genetic condition that necessitated it. That a diabetic syringes dispensers are okay to provide if the person had a T1D autoimmune disorder, but not for someone who's eating habits lead to T2D.
Frankly, the research I've seen for weight is that shaming or at least perceived shaming predicts weight gain.
The overall conclusion of famed psychologist BF Skinner is that shaming / guilt never works. All it ever does is teach people to hide the behavior where the judgmental can't see it, and since the behavior is usually soothing, just encourage them to withdraw more from others to perform more of the behavior.29 -
I think something else to consider is just cold practicality. The restaurant business is hairy - most new restaurants won't survive. They are often moving into a space that is already laid out and don't have tons of money to change the layout to allow for plus size booths or chairs. And as any short woman (who sometimes feels like a 5 yr old who needs a booster seat in regular restaurant setups) will tell you, if you design a booth or chair for a 300+ lb person, many smaller people won't be able to use it. So do you have two booths that have to sit empty while people wait if no one that size happens to show up? Which is better for your profit margin - having space available to accommodate larger people and risking it sitting empty if no one who can use it shows up, or losing out on the business of larger people because they can't fit? And as previously asked, how big should you accommodate? Do you have booths for up to 300 lbs, and booths for up to 500 lbs?
Perhaps chain restaurants have better finances and more corporate backing to be able to design a more inclusive layout. Or some kind of convertible situation, where a regular setup can be converted if someone needs it. But most small restaurants, lunch shops, local dives etc are working with limited space and are desperate to serve as many people as possible to aim for a razor thin profit margin. Unless they find themselves often dealing with customers who can't eat there because of their size or embarrassing situations when they try to, I can't imagine doing much about it is possible for many of them.
While I feel awful for people whose size puts them in this situation in the first place, I'm not sure expecting restaurants to find a way to change that is realistic.
This is a good point. While I feel for people who are in this situation, I also have personally seen the negative impacts of making things like seating larger. Not trying to do the "well skinny people get shamed TOO!" nonsense that can get so prevalent on these discussions, but just talking about pure practicality. It's impossible to have one design that is going to fit everyone, so I think the move to provide a variety of options as far as practicable makes a lot more sense than just making everything bigger.
I'm short (well, average height for a woman - 5'4") and have been seated many times in restaurant booths where my feet dangle, the table is so high I can't cut my food without my elbows uncomfortably high and splayed, I have to perch on the edge of the seat, etc. If everything starts being made bigger, I'm not going to be able to eat at a restaurant either, and I'm not sure that's better (especially because I'm far from an outlier size-wise, 5'4" is pretty darn common).
In my experience, most of the things I interact with on a daily basis are built for a normal-BMI person of about 5'9" or 5'10". Those of us who are further from that standard than others will struggle sometimes. I can't reach the handholds standing on the train to work. I can't see over a podium if speaking at an event. I often can't reach the armrests of my seat because my arms are too short. The top shelf at the grocery store is beyond my reach. But if the world changed to suit me, then new problems would start for taller people.
The best we can do IMO is try to offer sensitivity, flexibility, and kindness and help people out where we can. Options are great. Tables, booths, bar tops, chairs with and without arms, moveable furniture if we can (especially when creating something new - retrofitting is understandably more complicated logistically and financially.)
5'4" is average for females (at least in the US), you aren't short. You are normal. The average male in the US is 5'9". I wonder who is building things?
I'm 5'0". I'm short, even for a woman. I have problems with restaurant seating sizes as well, dangling feet, difficulty reaching the table. I often feel like a child sitting in seats like that.13 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I completely agree. Saying obesity should be treated like disability doesn't make much sense because it is something they can change. It is not something that they were born with or cannot control.
It takes away some of the motivation to lose weight. If I had always fit into booths and never had to worry I probably wouldn't of had half the motivation I did to lose weight. It was BECAUSE I felt squished and was limited to fit into "normal size" areas that I realized I had a problem, needed to lose, and is what motivated me.
There are other things considered disability that are a lifestyle disease, such that a person can or could have changed it. I would find it odd to say we can't accommodate the person using an oxygen tank if it is the result of them having been a smoker, but we can do so if they had genetic condition that necessitated it. That a diabetic syringes dispensers are okay to provide if the person had a T1D autoimmune disorder, but not for someone who's eating habits lead to T2D.
Frankly, the research I've seen for weight is that shaming or at least perceived shaming predicts weight gain.
The overall conclusion of famed psychologist BF Skinner is that shaming / guilt never works. All it ever does is teach people to hide the behavior where the judgmental can't see it, and since the behavior is usually soothing, just encourage them to withdraw more from others to perform more of the behavior.
Exactly. The "its for their own good" defense is really just an excuse to make the shamer feel better about their actions, not to actually help the one being shamed.
And for what its worth, for many people, especially in cases of extreme obesity, it is something they were either born with (at least in the sense that it developed early in childhood before they were making any sort of consensual informed decisions about it) or is influenced and caused by other health conditions. Not that it should be a deciding factor, but its not for everyone something that they can always control.30 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
"Shaming fat people and making them feel like crap about themselves" is not actually something that is being done for their best interests, as an FYI.
hmmm i dont seem to remember saying that....but whatever 🌹13 -
manderson27 wrote: »...By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.lleeann2001 wrote: »I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
Providing comfortable seating doesn't sound like "enabling" to me. There are plenty of drawbacks to being fat; it isn't necessary to increase them to provide "incentive."27 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »I do have sympathy for obese people as I was once 280 lbs myself. But it was just this kind of thing, second guessing about chairs, being uncomfortable eating in front of people, feeling like an outcast in certain circumstances, not being able to join in with even normal activities, not being able to find nice clothes or look good in the ones I could find, that made me take a long look at myself and my lifestyle.
So I chose not to have to deal with those things anymore. Once I lost some of the weight I realised how much easier my life was (just putting on a pair of socks was now effortless) and determined not to go back. So those problems were the catalyst to me seeking a healthier lifestyle. If the world had changed to make me more comfortable about my size I would probably have carried on and eaten myself to 300, 400, lbs and an early grave.
Should we make an ATTEMPT to accommodate all shapes and sizes in public places absolutely but should obese people EXPECT to be accommodated everywhere? No.
The more we normalise obesity means there is even less incentive for people to make a change. This is only my opinion and I could well be proved wrong by statistical evidence.
Take smoking. (I am an off again on again smoker so know a bit about this) When I started smoking it was accepted everywhere. In the home, in public, in the work place. I can't remember any of my family or friends that didn't smoke. The outliers were non smokers, at that time anyway. We enabled each other by making it the norm. Restaurants, bars, clubs, offices, factories all provided ashtrays for us so we could kill ourselves in comfort and among friends.
When the law was changed to reflect the dangers and smokers were made to feel uncomfortable about the habit and not allowed to smoke in all the places where they had previously been able to, smoking reduced significantly. A lot more people made the change because they did not want to die and they did not want to be made to feel uncomfortable about their habit and excluded from public places. Now hardly any of my friends or family smoke and those that do are trying to quit.
Maybe this isn't the best comparison but it does show that disapproval of unhealthy lifestyles by society can make a difference, at least to the people who can accept a hard truth. And the hard truth with obesity is that it is unhealthy and is killing thousands and costing the health services massive amounts of money. Just like smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse. None of which is condoned in general society.
By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.
I completely agree. Saying obesity should be treated like disability doesn't make much sense because it is something they can change. It is not something that they were born with or cannot control.
It takes away some of the motivation to lose weight. If I had always fit into booths and never had to worry I probably wouldn't of had half the motivation I did to lose weight. It was BECAUSE I felt squished and was limited to fit into "normal size" areas that I realized I had a problem, needed to lose, and is what motivated me.
There are other things considered disability that are a lifestyle disease, such that a person can or could have changed it. I would find it odd to say we can't accommodate the person using an oxygen tank if it is the result of them having been a smoker, but we can do so if they had genetic condition that necessitated it. That a diabetic syringes dispensers are okay to provide if the person had a T1D autoimmune disorder, but not for someone who's eating habits lead to T2D.
Frankly, the research I've seen for weight is that shaming or at least perceived shaming predicts weight gain.
The overall conclusion of famed psychologist BF Skinner is that shaming / guilt never works. All it ever does is teach people to hide the behavior where the judgmental can't see it, and since the behavior is usually soothing, just encourage them to withdraw more from others to perform more of the behavior.
Exactly. The "its for their own good" defense is really just an excuse to make the shamer feel better about their actions, not to actually help the one being shamed.
And for what its worth, for many people, especially in cases of extreme obesity, it is something they were either born with (at least in the sense that it developed early in childhood before they were making any sort of consensual informed decisions about it) or is influenced and caused by other health conditions. Not that it should be a deciding factor, but its not for everyone something that they can always control.
Completely anecdotal, BUT....I always maintain that if someone close to me would have said something or done anything other than make obesity be okay, I would have never gotten to 320 pounds. All my life, I was told that I fine, healthy, and just big boned. But, I was dying. My body wasn't designed to get that big. It wasn't until a doctor made me feel like crap about my weight did I start to do anything to change it.20 -
funjen1972 wrote: »Just throwing this out for considerstion, not my opinion...
@fjunjen1972 Should bar stools always have padding since I don't have much of my own?
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clicketykeys wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »...By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.lleeann2001 wrote: »I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
Providing comfortable seating doesn't sound like "enabling" to me. There are plenty of drawbacks to being fat; it isn't necessary to increase them to provide "incentive."
A restaurant's role is to be appealing to customers. Even if one can make a good case for people like family members, friends, and doctors being morally obligated to show "tough love" to obese people, I don't think it is the responsibility of a restaurant.
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I don't feel restaurants have any obligation to make special accommodations for very large people. Even when I was obese and at my heaviest, I could fit any seat in any restaurant. Some didn't give any extra room, but I took that as another reminder that I really needed to do something about my weight before it started to limit my activities.
Treat people with respect...yes. Make design decisions to accommodate a very small percentage of the population that, through their own actions...cannot fit in standard chairs...no. Most obese people can fit in these chairs. The ones who can't are a small percentage and most business owners don't design business plans around very small portions of the population. I have lived in large cities my entire adult life. Many restaurants have tables that are very close together. To put more space between then would limit the number of customers served and result in the owner making less money...or maybe even losing money. The same can sometimes be true of larger chairs. They just would not reasonably fit in small spaces.
This may not be PC...but I simply do not believe businesses have the obligation to accommodate every potential customer in every way imaginable. I often have a hard time hearing/understanding my dining companions in loud restaurants. But it would be crazy and ridiculously self-centered for me to demand that all restaurants design with acoustics in mind. Some do...but none should be forced to.
Like with anything else, people should spend their dollars at establishments that meet their needs. No restaurant can force anybody to eat at their establishment. But no customer should be able to demand that a restaurant provide them a certain type of seat. If one doesn't, take your money to one that does. I applaud the woman who created the app...that is a proactive solution to a problem that doesn't put the burden on others.
Finally, when I have picked restaurants for groups of friends, if a vegetarian was going to be included I always took it as part of my responsibility as the planner to research the menu and make sure there would be options the vegetarian could eat. Vegans are even harder to accommodate! Luckily, I only had one friend who went through a short vegan phase. BTW, my vegetarian friends would also check this for themselves, or ask me if I knew. They didn't just sit there and assume they would have options. If the menu wasn't online, I would pick up the phone and call. When I was on a very low-card diet, I would research restaurants ahead of time. If I was so large that I knew I would not fit in some seats, I would make sure I researched this ahead of time as well. It's really no that hard. Seriously, the woman who couldn't fit in the booth for her promotion lunch could have easily avoided the wait and attention by simply doing some basic research. Just like vegans and vegetarians cannot expect every restaurant to provide them food options that fit their needs, large diners cannot expect every restaurant to design with them in mind.
This is...I'm going off an a bit of a tangent here, I realize...a problem with issues other than weight. I feel like society is becoming a nanny state, in which people are no longer expected to be self-sufficient or even be able to take care of themselves. Adults should be able to anticipate and handle a wide range of potentially uncomfortable or unpleasant situations. It is not society's responsibility to make sure you are never uncomfortable or unhappy in any way. I realize some will say this is harsh, but I am just giving an honest opinion...which many people are afraid to do these days.36 -
For a weight loss site, there's an interesting amount of casual anti-fat bias on here sometimes.
It's anti-snowflake bias.
The last place you should try pulling "the fat card" is a weight loss site. Not only are people going to reject it, they are going to tell their own experiences of being 50lbs or 100lbs or 200lbs overweight and how they got off their butts and did something about it.
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clicketykeys wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »...By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.lleeann2001 wrote: »I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
Providing comfortable seating doesn't sound like "enabling" to me. There are plenty of drawbacks to being fat; it isn't necessary to increase them to provide "incentive."
If you go out of your way to design restaurant seating with them in mind, yes, it is enabling. It is saying it is the restaurant's (and every other business's) responsibility to make it easier for them to live with obesity. It isn't.22 -
clicketykeys wrote: »manderson27 wrote: »...By making it the norm as a society we are not just accepting it we are actively enabling it.lleeann2001 wrote: »I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
Providing comfortable seating doesn't sound like "enabling" to me. There are plenty of drawbacks to being fat; it isn't necessary to increase them to provide "incentive."
Respect and compassion for people as fellow humans is something I believe very strongly no matter your size. But re-modelling the world so people don't have to feel uncomfortable about their obesity is normalising it and this in itself is enabling it.
I have just watched a woman travelling to hospital to see Dr Now (my 600lb life) It was a 12 hour journey she was in a lot of pain. She could not get comfortable, and was having trouble breathing. I did feel sorry for her. But should the car manufacturers change the size/shape of the passenger seats just in case an obese person needs to travel more comfortably in a relatives car. They are already having to re-enforce seats because people are getting heavier and breaking them. (My husband will testify to that he worked for Ford UK)
How far do you take it? Isn't it bad enough that there is an entire industry devoted to supersized hospital doors, beds, chairs, wheelchairs, ambulances, operating tables, scales and the nail in the proverbial.....supersized coffins? These things are becoming the norm.
I refuse to be made to feel guilty because I think people should take responsibility for how uncomfortable their obesity is making them.
I have been obese, I know what it is like, but I am glad that none of my family just accepted it. I am glad they kept on my back, I am glad my husband of the time told me a hard truth, even though it ended my marriage. I am glad I changed, so I don't have to worry about breaking chairs and fitting in behind tables. I was 30 When I made those changes. My weight has gone up and down a over the last 30 years but I have never allowed it to get so bad again because of the hard truth. Being obese is not just unhealthy it is damn embarrassing.
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This reminds me of this article I read last week.ExistingFish wrote: »I think something else to consider is just cold practicality. The restaurant business is hairy - most new restaurants won't survive. They are often moving into a space that is already laid out and don't have tons of money to change the layout to allow for plus size booths or chairs. And as any short woman (who sometimes feels like a 5 yr old who needs a booster seat in regular restaurant setups) will tell you, if you design a booth or chair for a 300+ lb person, many smaller people won't be able to use it. So do you have two booths that have to sit empty while people wait if no one that size happens to show up? Which is better for your profit margin - having space available to accommodate larger people and risking it sitting empty if no one who can use it shows up, or losing out on the business of larger people because they can't fit? And as previously asked, how big should you accommodate? Do you have booths for up to 300 lbs, and booths for up to 500 lbs?
Perhaps chain restaurants have better finances and more corporate backing to be able to design a more inclusive layout. Or some kind of convertible situation, where a regular setup can be converted if someone needs it. But most small restaurants, lunch shops, local dives etc are working with limited space and are desperate to serve as many people as possible to aim for a razor thin profit margin. Unless they find themselves often dealing with customers who can't eat there because of their size or embarrassing situations when they try to, I can't imagine doing much about it is possible for many of them.
While I feel awful for people whose size puts them in this situation in the first place, I'm not sure expecting restaurants to find a way to change that is realistic.
This is a good point. While I feel for people who are in this situation, I also have personally seen the negative impacts of making things like seating larger. Not trying to do the "well skinny people get shamed TOO!" nonsense that can get so prevalent on these discussions, but just talking about pure practicality. It's impossible to have one design that is going to fit everyone, so I think the move to provide a variety of options as far as practicable makes a lot more sense than just making everything bigger.
I'm short (well, average height for a woman - 5'4") and have been seated many times in restaurant booths where my feet dangle, the table is so high I can't cut my food without my elbows uncomfortably high and splayed, I have to perch on the edge of the seat, etc. If everything starts being made bigger, I'm not going to be able to eat at a restaurant either, and I'm not sure that's better (especially because I'm far from an outlier size-wise, 5'4" is pretty darn common).
In my experience, most of the things I interact with on a daily basis are built for a normal-BMI person of about 5'9" or 5'10". Those of us who are further from that standard than others will struggle sometimes. I can't reach the handholds standing on the train to work. I can't see over a podium if speaking at an event. I often can't reach the armrests of my seat because my arms are too short. The top shelf at the grocery store is beyond my reach. But if the world changed to suit me, then new problems would start for taller people.
The best we can do IMO is try to offer sensitivity, flexibility, and kindness and help people out where we can. Options are great. Tables, booths, bar tops, chairs with and without arms, moveable furniture if we can (especially when creating something new - retrofitting is understandably more complicated logistically and financially.)
5'4" is average for females (at least in the US), you aren't short. You are normal. The average male in the US is 5'9". I wonder who is building things?
I'm 5'0". I'm short, even for a woman. I have problems with restaurant seating sizes as well, dangling feet, difficulty reaching the table. I often feel like a child sitting in seats like that.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes
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I'm kind of confused by the bolded. A very large number of identities aren't things that people choose and there are also a number of identities that are. For example my identities include being black and being a musician. One of those is obviously something I chose and the other is obviously not about choice.JeromeBarry1 wrote: »That was a difficult read. It shocked me to see the modern verbiage of people who "identify" as fat, obese, or large. That doesn't seem to be something up to personal choice.
I've been very obese most of my life. The only time I ever saw commercial accommodations for fat people was when I went with my wife to see a dietician for her severe undereating. The customer chair in the dieticians office was several inches wider than normal.9 -
I haven't been there since they moved to their current location. If their dessert option for Portland Dining Month wasn't panna cotta, I'd totally go this month.JeromeBarry1 wrote: »That was a difficult read. It shocked me to see the modern verbiage of people who "identify" as fat, obese, or large. That doesn't seem to be something up to personal choice.
Exactly - I was trying to figure out how to articulate that point. The denial was unbelievable
Fun fact - I live in the same neighborhood as that restaurant.
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funjen1972 wrote: »Just throwing this out for considerstion, not my opinion...
I identify as a tall slender female (ha!). Should restaurants have seating which prevents my knees from hitting the underside of a table? Should bar stools always have padding since I don't have much of my own? Should the distance between chairs be closer so I can be a comfortable distance to the others in my party?
I identify as a lefted handed person (ha!). Should we switch the orientation of place settings, water glass and silverware? Should the TP be on the other side of the stall? Should door handles be changed to the other side?
What about if I identify as a great tipper, a horrible tipper, a fast eater, a slow eater, a yeller, a rude patron, a very short person, a drunk, allergic to 10000 things, a (insert anything here)... Should I be accommodated?
Just some thoughts to ponder...
In all serious, the things that a restaurant in the US (and Besaw's and the woman profiled in the article are) would be required to accommodate on your list would involve things that are included under the ADA.3 -
I haven't been there since they moved to their current location. If their dessert option for Portland Dining Month wasn't panna cotta, I'd totally go this month.JeromeBarry1 wrote: »That was a difficult read. It shocked me to see the modern verbiage of people who "identify" as fat, obese, or large. That doesn't seem to be something up to personal choice.
Exactly - I was trying to figure out how to articulate that point. The denial was unbelievable
Fun fact - I live in the same neighborhood as that restaurant.
I’ve only been once since they moved - I liked the old place better!0 -
As a morbidly obese person, the disadvantages grew with my weight. Until they were enough disadvantages to make me choose to change my habits so my body would become standard size. As time past, I became standard size and as a result I will live healthier and probably longer and definitely enjoy it more. For me, the tipping point was prostate cancer. Recent studies found that like me, many prostate cancer survivors live longer than average because we respond as a wake-up call to live healthier than average.
There are many and varied reasons we become and remain obese. We can't change our past or physical limitations, but our habits each day keep us obese. Some people will have a tipping point and change, some won't. I'm here to encourage and support your efforts to figure out how to make the change and I'll kindly call you out for rationalizing excuses, whining, or giving up.17
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