Keto vs calorie counting
joowelz
Posts: 172 Member
I'm engaged in a lively Facebook discussion about the importance of hitting your calorie targets. Many people these days seem to view this approach to weight loss as archaic (i dont). They claim you can eat much more food on a keto (high fat) diet and still lose weight. I think these people are fooling themselves and probably havent done the math around their daily caloric intake and burn.
Is there any truth to the claim that you can overeat on keto and lose weight because it's all healthy fats/low carb?
Is there any truth to the claim that you can overeat on keto and lose weight because it's all healthy fats/low carb?
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No, that's an absurd claim. Fat loss and fat gain are dependent on calorie balance. People starting keto can have the appearance of fat loss while overeating due to the water weight loss associated with removing glycogen from your body. Also, a keto diet consists of foods that tend to be high in satiety compared to a more balanced diet, so someone can feel more full while still being in a calorie deficit.13
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Short term, they may not appear to gain weight or even lose weight from fluid losses. Often time, I find these same people run into plateaus in the long run & then start blaming what few carbs he/she does consume rather than the obvious lack of tracking total kcals overtime14
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I am able to eat a small amount more while keto without it affecting my weight, which has been born out in Hall and Lustig's studies which showed up to a 100 or 300 (I believe) kcal metabolic advantage. It isn't much, and it hasn't been proven to happen for all (those with hyperinsulinemia seem to benefit), but it isn't nothing.
For instance, I set my MFP weight loss goal for 1420 to lose about 1.5 lbs a week when I weighed 190lbs at 5'8" while inactive. Instead I averaged 1500 kcal over 3 months and lost 2-3 lbs a week. Once I got close to goal, below 160 lbs, then my weight loss slowed to the predicted rate of 1-1.5 lbs a week.
Eating certain foods can also affect how much you can eat. Nuts have quite a thermogenic effect. Proteins (like meat) does too.
Keto will cause water loss from glycogen depletion early on, and also from lower insulin levels (insulin causes water retention), but that is just in the first week or two. After that, unless you had extreme water retention, weight loss is largely fat. Glycogen stores do get refilled too so some of that water comes back on.
Calories do matter. You can't lose if you are eating excess calories, but diet can have a small effect on how many calories you can eat and still be in a deficit.29 -
Everybody wants to find an "eat as much as you want and lose weight" diet. Those diets don't exist, whether Keto or something else. Not everyone needs to count calories. Your body naturally counts them for you, and if Keto or another diet helps a person feel satisfied and eat at a reasonable calorie deficit without having to count and measure their food, that's great for them. But the rules of CICO still apply for them, even if they are not tracking themselves.16
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My understand is you can tack on any 'diet' rule (ie, Keto, Low carb, plant based, etc) but you will still need to apply CICO rules too. For example, I do Low carb due to borderline insulin resistance, but I still count my calories.
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The great thing about arguing about diets online is that often you are debating with a person who has only been doing the diet for a month or so and is a self-proclaimed expert because they lost a seemingly enviable amount of weight in a short time. That same person will probably not even be on the diet in another month. That is what happens when a diet goes fad. A large number of people jump on it lose 13 pounds fast tell everyone who will listen which adds to the cult status then quit it without ever saying how or why. Because the quitters are mostly silent it makes it seem like huge numbers of people are all out there with weight falling off of them when only a small number stick to it.
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I am able to eat a small amount more while keto without it affecting my weight, which has been born out in Hall and Lustig's studies which showed up to a 100 or 300 (I believe) kcal metabolic advantage. It isn't much, and it hasn't been proven to happen for all (those with hyperinsulinemia seem to benefit), but it isn't nothing.
For instance, I set my MFP weight loss goal for 1420 to lose about 1.5 lbs a week when I weighed 190lbs at 5'8" while inactive. Instead I averaged 1500 kcal over 3 months and lost 2-3 lbs a week. Once I got close to goal, below 160 lbs, then my weight loss slowed to the predicted rate of 1-1.5 lbs a week.
Eating certain foods can also affect how much you can eat. Nuts have quite a thermogenic effect. Proteins (like meat) does too.
Keto will cause water loss from glycogen depletion early on, and also from lower insulin levels (insulin causes water retention), but that is just in the first week or two. After that, unless you had extreme water retention, weight loss is largely fat. Glycogen stores do get refilled too so some of that water comes back on.
Calories do matter. You can't lose if you are eating excess calories, but diet can have a small effect on how many calories you can eat and still be in a deficit.
I don't do keto and must also have this same 'metabolic advantage' as I too can eat about 200 calories more than MFP allots me to maintain my current weight. The fact that you said it has been proven to happen for some but not all speaks volumes to me. This same thing could be 'proven' with all diets that people follow as there will always be those with both higher and lower metabolisms than the norm.20 -
You lose weight when you consistently eat fewer calories than you burn. Any way of eating that puts you in a calorie deficit will lead to weight loss. There is no characteristic of keto, or any other diet, that will lead to weight loss without a calorie deficit.
However, I generally don't find it fruitful to argue with people who are convinced about unscientific ideas on how weight loss works. If they make an intentional and sustained effort to lose weight, they'll ultimately figure it out for themselves, and in my experience that's the only way that many naysayers will be persuaded. Confirmation bias about weight loss is very strong.8 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »
I don't do keto and must also have this same 'metabolic advantage' as I too can eat about 200 calories more than MFP allots me to maintain my current weight. The fact that you said it has been proven to happen for some but not all speaks volumes to me. This same thing could be 'proven' with all diets that people follow as there will always be those with both higher and lower metabolisms than the norm.
MFP had my calories about 200 too low when I started my non-Keto diet but my home grown plan has its own metabolic advantage because I have caught up to MFP.
As I lose weight I keep feeling better and it translates to more day-to-day movement. It happened gradually and I didn't even realize it until I started comparing my current self with my starting weight self.10 -
This seems to be a common concept that keto allows you to eat as much as you want without tracking calories. There is a very bright kid here where I work (a PhD student, quantum physics) who is adamant that CICO doesn't matter if you keto. I have given up arguing with him.
One of his arguments to me was that he now eats about 2000 calories and is losing weight. Bear in mind he is pretty big - like over 100g. He's lost already about 40-odd kilos. So his maintenance is most likely over 2000 calories anyway. He is tall and large. It will get to the point though once he loses the other 30-odd kilos he tells me he needs to lose to get to his goal weight, his maintenance may no longer be what it is now!
I'll keep my "I told you so" in my desk drawer for when he hits that stage LOL!
(He's a good kid, I just find it mind boggling that him, a walking encyclopedia, can actually believe that CICO doesn't apply to keto.)10 -
If it were true: How are those people telling you they plan to maintain a healthy weight once they hit one? I mean, if keto magically makes people lose weight no matter how much they eat, what stops these magical-keto people from wasting away to nothing? And if they decide to do a bulk to add muscle faster, how are they going to accomplish that on magical-keto, since they can't gain weight?
Some people find actual keto (not magical keto) very effective, because it helps with appetite management or medical issues, or something like that. Some of them find the appetite management part to be so effective that calorie counting isn't necessary. That's pretty wonderful, for those for whom it works. There are lots of ways to lose weight, many of which don't involve calorie counting, but they all do involve getting calories in to be less than calories out. I applaud any heathy approach that works for someone, and is sustainable.
But there's no way to talk certain true believers out of something that's a quasi-religious conviction. All the blogs your friends read said keto was magic, so it must be true. What the heck do you know, you're not a fitness blogger or IG fitness celeb, are you?
And the initial quick water weight loss tends to reinforce the belief.
Hang in there, do your thing, be the evidence among your friends that calorie counting works.
But don't expect them to believe it, even then: I've had a friend tell me (literally) that it's only possible to lose weight by cutting out carbs, because over the Winter she'd "read all the books and they all said so" . . . even when I pointed out that I'd lost 50 pounds by counting calories and eating carbs while she was reading all the books. (She got pretty irritated with me for being wrong. ). Another friend told me I lost weight because of my rowing, even though she knew I'd done that for 10 years before losing any weight whatsoever. Denial is strong!
Keto can be healthy, as can many other eating modes. It has pros and cons, fits some people well, and others not at all. It's not magical; it doesn't defy the laws of physics.20 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »I am able to eat a small amount more while keto without it affecting my weight, which has been born out in Hall and Lustig's studies which showed up to a 100 or 300 (I believe) kcal metabolic advantage. It isn't much, and it hasn't been proven to happen for all (those with hyperinsulinemia seem to benefit), but it isn't nothing.
For instance, I set my MFP weight loss goal for 1420 to lose about 1.5 lbs a week when I weighed 190lbs at 5'8" while inactive. Instead I averaged 1500 kcal over 3 months and lost 2-3 lbs a week. Once I got close to goal, below 160 lbs, then my weight loss slowed to the predicted rate of 1-1.5 lbs a week.
Eating certain foods can also affect how much you can eat. Nuts have quite a thermogenic effect. Proteins (like meat) does too.
Keto will cause water loss from glycogen depletion early on, and also from lower insulin levels (insulin causes water retention), but that is just in the first week or two. After that, unless you had extreme water retention, weight loss is largely fat. Glycogen stores do get refilled too so some of that water comes back on.
Calories do matter. You can't lose if you are eating excess calories, but diet can have a small effect on how many calories you can eat and still be in a deficit.
I don't do keto and must also have this same 'metabolic advantage' as I too can eat about 200 calories more than MFP allots me to maintain my current weight. The fact that you said it has been proven to happen for some but not all speaks volumes to me. This same thing could be 'proven' with all diets that people follow as there will always be those with both higher and lower metabolisms than the norm.
The advantage appears to be true for those with insulinemia. Those with a normal insulin and BG levels lose at the same rate with both diets (higher or lower carb). Those with metabolic problems lose slower on higher carb diets. Their slower metabolism resolves when carbs are dropped.
When my carbs are high, I gain or maintain at 2000 kcal. When I eat almost no carbs, I lose slowly at that calorie level.
When I was losing 2-3 lbs a week while keto, that implied a 1000-1500 kcal deficit. I am positive that my maintenance on a higher carb diet was not 2500-3000 kcal for an inactive middle aged woman. Now?
Eating almost no carbs? After losing 40lbs and being back in a size 8, that calorie level may correct, but if I went back to higher carbs, my guess is that it would change.
My food choices apparently influence whether my metabolism is faster or slower. Ymmv18 -
You lose weight when you consistently eat fewer calories than you burn. Any way of eating that puts you in a calorie deficit will lead to weight loss. There is no characteristic of keto, or any other diet, that will lead to weight loss without a calorie deficit.
However, I generally don't find it fruitful to argue with people who are convinced about unscientific ideas on how weight loss works. If they make an intentional and sustained effort to lose weight, they'll ultimately figure it out for themselves, and in my experience that's the only way that many naysayers will be persuaded. Confirmation bias about weight loss is very strong.
I agree with this but ...... although it won't change their stance, it may stop other gullible people from straying down the same path and then giving up because there must be something wrong with them due to the fact they are gaining weight on keto.6 -
Ironically, I discovered I had to eat much less food on keto when I tried it. For some people, this may as well be true because they start from a place where they don't eat many vegetables and they start eating them when they start eating keto, so it feels like more food. Not in my case.
I don't really argue about it in real life, I'm not one to fuel conflicts. If something works for someone, who am I to tell them it doesn't (even if their reasoning for why it works is completely wrong). I'm not the arbiter of truth. If someone is struggling and asks for tips, that's where I offer my opinion to try a different approach and see if it works for them. I'm only open and outward here on the forums because by asking questions, people are by default inviting me to offer my opinion.9 -
" They claim you can eat much more food on a keto (high fat) diet"
Obviously false as fat is 9cals per gram compared to 4cals per gram for carbs and protein. Isocaloric diets high in fat must be lower volume of food compared to higher carb and protein diets.
"Is there any truth to the claim that you can overeat on keto and lose weight because it's all healthy fats/low carb?"
Assuming they mean overeating = calorie surplus then it's utterly stupid.
The excess energy would have to pass (shart?) straight through undigested otherwise those excess calories are going to be stored.
If overeating equals weight loss then does weight maintenance require a massive calorie surplus?
Sadly there's a load of overweight people who will do absoliutely anything required to lose eight - except eat less.
Keto can be a valid way to lose weight but some looney tunes evangelists seem to need to believe in magic.
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I know were talking calories here..but in my opinion from someone who tried keto, the only way it seems like you can eat more, is if your not actually tracking calories, just mainly your carbs.. and consuming all proteins and vegetables, as keto friendly vegetables have next to nothing in them, and prot has little to no carbs so it seems like you can eat alot more as appose to a unhealthy persons old ways of eating where a big mac and fries alone would put you over your carbs and calories for a day then it seems like you cant have nothing else if your trying to stay in a set cal/carb goal. When i did it, i rarely looked at my calories. Until you do, and realize cheese..prot and fats depending where you get them from has ALOT of calories that can add up quick2
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Keto works because it cuts out super high calorie dense foods like bread and sugar.
Bread, french fries, candy...all stuff with a TON of calories that don't keep you full. Not to mention sugar is just generally not good for metabolism, but that's secondary.
They get full on less calories is ultimately why it works.25 -
I eat less when doing keto (hence less or the perfect caloric amount). The fats fill me up. I count calories too, but I'm not near as hungry on Keto as I am on anything else. My blood sugar doesn't spike. I have LOADS of energy also. It works for me, but might not work for others.8
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sklarbodds wrote: »Keto works because it cuts out super high calorie dense foods like bread and sugar.
Bread, french fries, candy...all stuff with a TON of calories that don't keep you full. Not to mention sugar is just generally not good for metabolism, but that's secondary.
They get full on less calories is ultimately why it works.
Sure you cut out the carbs, but don't forget you replace it with fats. Fats are very calorie dense, 9 calories per gram. Personally what works for me.... when I cut down on fats that helps me cut down on calories since I don't find fats filling.
And you know what, bread and carbs keep me full and I've never heard of sugar being bad for metabolism. If anything I am full of energy after having sugar and carbs, I move more, my exercise improves, I burn more calories and don't sloth around.
It may work for many people that find fats satiating, but it is not universal for everyone.
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sklarbodds wrote: »Keto works because it cuts out super high calorie dense foods like bread and sugar.
Bread, french fries, candy...all stuff with a TON of calories that don't keep you full. Not to mention sugar is just generally not good for metabolism, but that's secondary.
They get full on less calories is ultimately why it works.
You may not know this but there's numerous lower calorie bread options out there. The two I get are either 70 calories or 110 calories per slice (both are whole grains, one is sprouted and the other is a seeded organic option). I eat two slices of toasted bread every morning, along with cheese, and it comes in under 300 calories. That's not unreasonable for a meal that keeps me feeling full for several hours.
Fries aren't that calorie dense either, unless you're deep frying them.
And there's nothing wrong with sugar, within the context of a balanced diet that's focused on correct calorie balance and micro-nutrients. I eat a very 'healthy' diet and still have room for things like the occasional dessert or piece of candy.7 -
You lose weight when you consistently eat fewer calories than you burn. Any way of eating that puts you in a calorie deficit will lead to weight loss. There is no characteristic of keto, or any other diet, that will lead to weight loss without a calorie deficit.
However, I generally don't find it fruitful to argue with people who are convinced about unscientific ideas on how weight loss works. If they make an intentional and sustained effort to lose weight, they'll ultimately figure it out for themselves, and in my experience that's the only way that many naysayers will be persuaded. Confirmation bias about weight loss is very strong.
I agree with this in general.
However, when it comes to online-forums, I would probably argue for the benefit of other who may be reading and don't have their minds already made up.3 -
Our perceptions on food intake can easily be clouded by how full or how hungry we are. In addition, if a person has experiences in previous diet attempts where they were too aggressive (unnecessarily ate too little) it might seem that eating a healthy amount of calories seems like much more by comparison. Keto is not the first diet in which some participants claimed to eat seemingly excessive amounts of food.
The only way to make a claim that you can eat more than maintenance on Keto is to establish what that is and then accurately log your food and activity for a couple of months. Otherwise it is just perception which does not make it true.7 -
sklarbodds wrote: »Keto works because it cuts out super high calorie dense foods like bread and sugar.
Cheese and nuts are much more calorie dense by volume than bread and sugar, not to mention oil and butter.
But then few people eat sugar alone, of course -- most commonly it's in larger amounts in foods that are very high cal due to also having sugar.
I think the point amusedmonkey made is right on -- if you switch from a bad diet that contains lots of high fat and high carb and low nutrient foods and few vegetables, then keto often will increase volume, protein, and satiety.
For me, volume was somewhat less on keto, although that wasn't a problem. It was no more satiating than my normal diet and I was eating (IMO) less healthfully than my current default diet, although it did make it easier to resist mindless eating since many things available for mindless eating would not fit in the diet (I already avoided snacking and mindless eating so that wasn't an issue but I can see it being helpful for some just starting out).
I do think one reason why people do dramatic diet shifts and then lose without counting calories (whether it's W30 or keto or 100% plant based or "clean" (whatever that means to them)) is that often they are coming from a basically poor and not satiating diet and often they are putting off limits their main trigger foods.7 -
Repeat this with me everyone..."Keto is not magic." Anyone telling you it is a full of scheet.15
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Our perceptions on food intake can easily be clouded by how full or how hungry we are. In addition, if a person has experiences in previous diet attempts where they were too aggressive (unnecessarily ate too little) it might seem that eating a healthy amount of calories seems like much more by comparison. Keto is not the first diet in which some participants claimed to eat seemingly excessive amounts of food.
The only way to make a claim that you can eat more than maintenance on Keto is to establish what that is and then accurately log your food and activity for a couple of months. Otherwise it is just perception which does not make it true.
This is a really good point. I will add that I've seen people claim they eat "more" on a diet that is radically different from keto -- for example, a plant-based, high carbohydrate diet. When you find a way of eating that personally "clicks" for your satiety and satisfaction, it often feels like you're eating "more" than you did in the past. For some people, keto will do this. For others, it may be a high carbohydrate diet. I've seen people in all seriousness and sincerity claim that it's impossible to be obese on a WFPB diet because that is their personal experience.7 -
sklarbodds wrote: »Keto works because it cuts out super high calorie dense foods like bread and sugar.
Bread, french fries, candy...all stuff with a TON of calories that don't keep you full. Not to mention sugar is just generally not good for metabolism, but that's secondary.
They get full on less calories is ultimately why it works.
What does the bolded even mean? (That's not intended as a cheap shot; it's a serious question.)
I agree that sugar to excess - to the point where it either drives out needed nutrition, or puts a person over a sensible calorie level - is not a healthy way to construct a diet. (Those two things, lowered nutrition or excess calories, seem to be what maintream organizations like USDA and WHO cite as problems with too much added sugar.)
I can't think of anything I'd describe as "sugar being not good for metabolism", so I'm wondering what you mean - if I've missed some relevant research, for example.
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jessicamaehunter wrote: »I eat less when doing keto (hence less or the perfect caloric amount). The fats fill me up. I count calories too, but I'm not near as hungry on Keto as I am on anything else. My blood sugar doesn't spike. I have LOADS of energy also. It works for me, but might not work for others.
Which seems perfectly sensible and logical, in the eyes of this carb-eating "CICO person". We're all different, and it's great when someone finds a happy path to successful weight management and good nutrition/health. I do appreciate it when people who eat differently from me share their perspectives in a clear, open-minded and science-aware ways on threads here. Honest pros & cons from all of us can help new people find their personal happy path.
:flowerforyou:9 -
There is this silly idea that if you're not doing keto, it means you're living at the very extreme of calorie dense and nutrient poor, nothing but soda and packaged snack food. Like there is no way you could be eating carbs without swinging that way, and that the only way to control that is by cutting out an entire macro.17
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I am able to eat a small amount more while keto without it affecting my weight, which has been born out in Hall and Lustig's studies which showed up to a 100 or 300 (I believe) kcal metabolic advantage. It isn't much, and it hasn't been proven to happen for all (those with hyperinsulinemia seem to benefit), but it isn't nothing.
For instance, I set my MFP weight loss goal for 1420 to lose about 1.5 lbs a week when I weighed 190lbs at 5'8" while inactive. Instead I averaged 1500 kcal over 3 months and lost 2-3 lbs a week. Once I got close to goal, below 160 lbs, then my weight loss slowed to the predicted rate of 1-1.5 lbs a week.
Eating certain foods can also affect how much you can eat. Nuts have quite a thermogenic effect. Proteins (like meat) does too.
Keto will cause water loss from glycogen depletion early on, and also from lower insulin levels (insulin causes water retention), but that is just in the first week or two. After that, unless you had extreme water retention, weight loss is largely fat. Glycogen stores do get refilled too so some of that water comes back on.
Calories do matter. You can't lose if you are eating excess calories, but diet can have a small effect on how many calories you can eat and still be in a deficit.
To be fair, the "metabolic advantage" or increase in EE, was over the first few days and continuously tapered. As Kevin Hall mentioned, it was due to the fact that increase is from initial ketone production. It was also noted that during that period, there was no fat loss and that overall fat loss was greater in the low fat group, since the storage of carbs as body fat is not very efficient.
For those with IR, it seems logical to lose more on low carb. Prolonged periods of lipogenesis caused by over production of insulin would inhibit the abilty to burn fat since HSL would be suppressed.11 -
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