Intermittent fasting, protein consumption and weight/fat loss - my share
pierinifitness
Posts: 2,226 Member
This is long so if long posts annoy you, please move on; thanks.
Today I had my second DEXA-SCAN; the first was almost three months ago on 1/16/2019. I'd like to share some of my results and hope it will be informative. If this discussion remains healthy, I'll share more but not today.
Background information: middle-aged man, now age 64, who for 22 of the last 25 years has been at his ideal weight by training hard and eating an amount that kept me in maintenance mode. I sit for a living, then and now, so I judge myself as sedentary or whatever the MFP classification is for this lowest level of activity.
Last 8/31/2018, weighing in that morning at 210.8 lbs., I began my current journey with a goal of being 180 lbs. by my 64th birthday in February 2019. I subsequently dropped that goal to 177 lbs. and achieved it. I did so my practicing intermittent fasting (IF) with an average daily fasting period of probably 18 hours, and with a weekly weight loss goal of 1.5 lbs. While I've trained with barbells in the past doing heavy lifting workouts, I no longer belong to a gym and train using kettlebells. I also do pull-ups, bar dips and other exercises providing alternative resistance training. But and this is important, I eat a lower amount of protein, choosing to dismiss the standard advice of how I should eat a "x" number of grams of protein for each lb. or kg of weight or however the standard advice is dispensed.
Comparing my two DEXA-SCAN results - 1/16/2019 and 4/10/2019 - I was pleased to learn that I lost 12.8 lbs. of weight during this period. I didn't need a DEXA-SCAN to tell me this. But what I needed it for was to tell me how much fat I lost during this period. I lost 12.3 lbs. of fat so virtually 100% of my weight loss was fat loss. I'm told this is an awesome result.
And, I did it by only eating an average of 82 grams of protein a day at an average weight of 180 lbs.
Also, for the last 35 days, I've practice OMAD, a more restrictive form of IF, fasting 22 hours a day and abstaining from meat during Lent 2019. All these are "red flags" of setting myself up for muscle loss. As you can imagine, I feel great knowing this hasn't been my case.
We get lots of standard advice about this and that related to fitness and nutrition. You know, drink 8 glasses of water, get so many grams of protein for each lb. of bodyweight, sleep so many hours a day; blah, blah, blah. While this advice is based on convincing empirical evidence, we're all different and it's important to find our unique sweet spot which may be different that the standard fare. This is what I've tried to do and will continue doing. Listening to the "experts" but going about it my way and hoping that I'll be right most of the time.
I'll have my next DEXA-SCAN in late July after I finish running a 10kg that I've signed up for as a fun runner out of retirement.
Comments welcomed and appreciated.
Today I had my second DEXA-SCAN; the first was almost three months ago on 1/16/2019. I'd like to share some of my results and hope it will be informative. If this discussion remains healthy, I'll share more but not today.
Background information: middle-aged man, now age 64, who for 22 of the last 25 years has been at his ideal weight by training hard and eating an amount that kept me in maintenance mode. I sit for a living, then and now, so I judge myself as sedentary or whatever the MFP classification is for this lowest level of activity.
Last 8/31/2018, weighing in that morning at 210.8 lbs., I began my current journey with a goal of being 180 lbs. by my 64th birthday in February 2019. I subsequently dropped that goal to 177 lbs. and achieved it. I did so my practicing intermittent fasting (IF) with an average daily fasting period of probably 18 hours, and with a weekly weight loss goal of 1.5 lbs. While I've trained with barbells in the past doing heavy lifting workouts, I no longer belong to a gym and train using kettlebells. I also do pull-ups, bar dips and other exercises providing alternative resistance training. But and this is important, I eat a lower amount of protein, choosing to dismiss the standard advice of how I should eat a "x" number of grams of protein for each lb. or kg of weight or however the standard advice is dispensed.
Comparing my two DEXA-SCAN results - 1/16/2019 and 4/10/2019 - I was pleased to learn that I lost 12.8 lbs. of weight during this period. I didn't need a DEXA-SCAN to tell me this. But what I needed it for was to tell me how much fat I lost during this period. I lost 12.3 lbs. of fat so virtually 100% of my weight loss was fat loss. I'm told this is an awesome result.
And, I did it by only eating an average of 82 grams of protein a day at an average weight of 180 lbs.
Also, for the last 35 days, I've practice OMAD, a more restrictive form of IF, fasting 22 hours a day and abstaining from meat during Lent 2019. All these are "red flags" of setting myself up for muscle loss. As you can imagine, I feel great knowing this hasn't been my case.
We get lots of standard advice about this and that related to fitness and nutrition. You know, drink 8 glasses of water, get so many grams of protein for each lb. of bodyweight, sleep so many hours a day; blah, blah, blah. While this advice is based on convincing empirical evidence, we're all different and it's important to find our unique sweet spot which may be different that the standard fare. This is what I've tried to do and will continue doing. Listening to the "experts" but going about it my way and hoping that I'll be right most of the time.
I'll have my next DEXA-SCAN in late July after I finish running a 10kg that I've signed up for as a fun runner out of retirement.
Comments welcomed and appreciated.
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Replies
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What was your exercise program? Was it random kettle bells or did you program something?
Overall, good results.0 -
What was your exercise program?
Kettlebell complexes, pull-ups and bar dips, those dreaded burpees, lot of walking during the summer months and more recently running 60 minutes once a week. My proclivity and heart rests with my kettlebell complexes using a single 24kg KB and a pair of 20kg KB.
My training is intuitive, I don't follow a program but pay attention to how my body is feeling. The common theme of my training though is intensity and time spent in the anaerobic training zone.0 -
pierinifitness wrote: »What was your exercise program?
Kettlebell complexes, pull-ups and bar dips, those dreaded burpees, lot of walking during the summer months and more recently running 60 minutes once a week. My proclivity and heart rests with my kettlebell complexes using a single 24kg KB and a pair of 20kg KB.
My training is intuitive, I don't follow a program but pay attention to how my body is feeling. The common theme of my training though is intensity and time spent in the anaerobic training zone.
Sorry, got it before i edited. Overall, that is a pretty good job. I would note, and its more for considering or to ponder over time. I fully expect that in a 11 week period, while over weight, you wouldn't lose that much LBM. Its a short period of time, you were overweight and probably just became active again (rebound effect). If i am reading this correctly. The one thing that can't be addressed, and the issue with n=1 results is that you wouldn't know if you would have increased muscle mass by 1. Eating more protein or 2. Following a more structured routine. But 4% lbm loss is minimal. And its great you are happy with your results.
What I would really be interested in, is how does this compare over several more DEXAs. There are a few reasons for this. 1. There is a 5% error in it, 2. You can manipulate DEXA with carb/glycogen levels.
This isn't to deminish anything you have done. And i hope you don't take it that way.10 -
Well since further weight loss isn’t a goal and my training is not typical muscle-building, I agree with your comment. Both scans were done in fasted state, trying my best to minimize those considerations you describe.
Measurements aren’t always as precise as we might believe. Something to be said for the old-fashion tape measure.0 -
pierinifitness wrote: »Well since further weight loss isn’t a goal and my training is not typical muscle-building, I agree with your comment. Both scans were done in fasted state, trying my best to minimize those considerations you describe.
Measurements aren’t always as precise as we might believe. Something to be said for the old-fashion tape measure.
It still would be interesting to see if your measurements (scans) change over time.
Also, regarding of being in fasted state, if you had more carb heavy meals prior to loads, glycogen would be more replenished showing more lean body mass. So that question would be, how carb heavy where you prior to your first and second scans.
It's actually interesting. Some of the evidence on training regarding low carb vs low fat diets have been quickly discredited based researchers carb refeeding prior to the second scans. It's because even DEXA estimates muscle vs FFM.0 -
Yes I do expect my measurements to change over time. Do I plan on changing how I eat or train? Nope. The standard prescription for protein consumption doesn't work for me and my results suggest it isn't necessary. I have no goals to train my body to look like a Greek Adonis. More interested in improving my cardiovascular conditioning and time it takes to complete certain kettlebell complex workouts, single set maximum reps doing pull-ups and bar dips, and time it takes to bang out 100 burpees. This is my training personality. Hypertrophy training isn't. I've done the heavier barbell lifting including Olympic lifts during Lent 2009, the last time I had an IF "science experiment". I think I was stronger then because of my training but at age 64, I don't need much training to be in the top 10 percent of my age class.
Some other information from yesterday's DEXA-SCAN:
(1) Android/Gynoid Ratio - went from 1.1 on 1//16/2019 to 0.87 on 4/10/2019.
(2) My RMR calculated at 1,644 calories a day - MFP calculates 1,585 so close.
(3) Lean mass in my right arm decreased by 0.2 lbs while my left arm increased 0.1 lbs. Since I'm right-handed, I find this interesting. Meanwhile, fat lbs. decreased 0.4 lbs. right and 0.7 lbs. left.
(4) Lean mass in my right leg increased by 0.1 lbs. while my left leg decreased by 0.2 lbs. Fat lbs. decreased 1.2 lbs. right and 1.2 lbs. left.
(5) There was no change in the lean mass of my trunk but fat lbs. decreased 8.9 lbs. This was the jewel stat of all.
(6) Android lean mass increased by 0.2 lbs while fat decreased 1.9 lbs.
(7) Gynoid lean mass decreased by 0.1 lbs while fat decreased 1.7 lbs.
(8) Overall, lean mass decreased by 0.4 lbs.
Note that both times tests were done in fasted state with, to the best of my recollection, comparable hydration levels. Don't have the time or desire to provide more details about food consumption other than day before consumption was 1,887 calories on 1/15/2019 (68% carbs) compared to 1,790 calories on 4/9/2019 (54% carbs). I consumed 60 grams of protein on 1/15/2019 compared to 82 grams on 4/9/2019. Note that 4/9/2019 calories were unusually low. I'm working long hours now, didn't train that day and just wasn't as hungry, so I ate less.
I'm an analytical due so find this information fascinating. What a well-spent $49. Again, the take-away for me is that I don't need the amount of protein that's constantly being advised here and at other fitness discussion forums. It's advice that's bodybuilder-oriented and most people here trying to lose weight don't fit this profile. They're just average Joe Blow and Jane Blow characters like me. I read many sharing how they're struggling to get their macros and protein in and honestly, it's needless worry about nothing in my opinion. I hope some of them read my sharing and take note, then seek to discover their own unique sweet spots.
Another long rambling but this is me, your mileage may vary.3 -
@pierinifitness I'm grateful to you for sharing these details and insights. Sure, it's n=1, but I find it compelling enough to give me pause when considering the typical advice regarding protein intake. I struggle to meet my MFP-prescribed protein goal daily, and it does trigger some anxiety over the potential of dreaded muscle loss. Yet I'm a "Jane Blow" with no intention of becoming a fitness model/bodybuilder. Again, thanks for explaining your process and results so fully.1
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When you were abstaining from meat, what were your main sources of protein? It's a more personal curiosity, if you found yourself getting a lot from eggs/dairy or if non-animal sources were also a significant source.0
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You were able to maintain your lean mass, but did you ask yourself what would the results have been had you go the "recommended" protein? it is possible you would have put on a little lbm had you followed and "ideal" traning and meal plan.
That said, those are great results, but your assumption that you don't need more protein is not a fair one, as you don't know how good the results would have been had you doubled your protein intake during the same weight loss.9 -
@janejellyroll, I do eat eggs, not daily. I'd have to study my journals to provide more detail and unfortunately I'm very busy with work and don't have the time. If I can remember, big if, I'll try and follow up.
@erickirb, fair question. Of course, one can always do better and what's better varies from person to person. I shared my goals and what's important to me - light, lean and strong and it's a work in process. I believe in chasing athleticism as evidence by performance improvements in my unique benchmarks. I believe if you chase athleticism that body appearance improvements will tag along for the ride if training properly.
I'm more interesting in banging out 12 to 15 pull-ups in a single set than bench pressing 300 lbs. I'm not interested in big arms or a big chest, now a strong and powerful posterior chain is of interest to me. Again, I'm a 64 year old dude so my goals are much different than yours. Enjoy your youth and thanks for asking.2 -
And, I might add, just because I don't belong to a gym or do barbell training doesn't mean I'm swinging little pink dumbbells either. The kettlebell stuff I do is definitely demanding and strength endurance. I'm not beastly but do some decent stuff for an older turd.
There's no doubt in my mind this contributed to my results.3 -
Hilogirl2018 wrote: »@pierinifitness I'm grateful to you for sharing these details and insights. Sure, it's n=1, but I find it compelling enough to give me pause when considering the typical advice regarding protein intake. I struggle to meet my MFP-prescribed protein goal daily, and it does trigger some anxiety over the potential of dreaded muscle loss. Yet I'm a "Jane Blow" with no intention of becoming a fitness model/bodybuilder. Again, thanks for explaining your process and results so fully.
Dont sweat the recommended protein intake that is often advised. It is way higher than the average person needs, and is geared more towards the athlete who is training. As a female 50 grams is more than enough to meet your nutritional needs. If you want more than by all means indulge, but don’t feel the pressure is all I’m saying. I know that as a male I need approximately 60 grams per day, I usually eat between 80-100.9 -
@Dgil1975 I generally get between 50-60 a day, so that's great to hear. Some calculations put me at a goal of 90 or so grams, which I kept trying to meet with protein shakes at the end of the day, even if I wasn't hungry. It wasn't sustainable for me, and didn't feel right intuitively, especially since I'm fairly sedentary. Thanks for your input.0
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Not a problem Hilogirl, glad you found the information useful.Hilogirl2018 wrote: »@Dgil1975 I generally get between 50-60 a day, so that's great to hear. Some calculations put me at a goal of 90 or so grams, which I kept trying to meet with protein shakes at the end of the day, even if I wasn't hungry. It wasn't sustainable for me, and didn't feel right intuitively, especially since I'm fairly sedentary. Thanks for your input.
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Hilogirl2018 wrote: »@pierinifitness I'm grateful to you for sharing these details and insights. Sure, it's n=1, but I find it compelling enough to give me pause when considering the typical advice regarding protein intake. I struggle to meet my MFP-prescribed protein goal daily, and it does trigger some anxiety over the potential of dreaded muscle loss. Yet I'm a "Jane Blow" with no intention of becoming a fitness model/bodybuilder. Again, thanks for explaining your process and results so fully.
Dont sweat the recommended protein intake that is often advised. It is way higher than the average person needs, and is geared more towards the athlete who is training. As a female 50 grams is more than enough to meet your nutritional needs. If you want more than by all means indulge, but don’t feel the pressure is all I’m saying. I know that as a male I need approximately 60 grams per day, I usually eat between 80-100.
The protein recommendations in multiple meta-analyses are based on a wide range of situations... Everywhere from you athlete to sedentary older people. There are hundreds of studies that all confirm the same thing. While dieting a persons protein needs increase. That is backed by substantial amounts of evidence.
Heck, even the OP lost 4% of their weight from lean body mass. Extend that passed 11 weeks and there is a probably that can increase.
Its why its recommended intakes are 1.5-2.2g/kg.9 -
DEXA scans are low-dose full body radiation, so I would caution against getting too many of them in a short period of time.4
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https://www.health.harvard.edu/cancer/radiation-risk-from-medical-imaging
Bone density test would be your DEXA scan, thought from what I understand the whole body DEXA for fat levels is done at a slightly lower intensity than when the same machine does a bone scan.
That said, any avoidable risk can be avoided!0 -
@psuLemon, you're correct that 4% of the weight loss wsas lean body mass but this lean body mass only represented 0.3% of my total lean body mass. You didn't have the info to make this calculation. I consider 0.3% to be insignificant. You and others may differ.6
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Two months later since my previous report, I had another DXA scan yesterday, 6/12/2019. If you're reading this post, you may benefit by scrolling back to the initial post and read it and the comments that followed.
My scan yesterday was two months after the one I had in April. My bodyweight was 0.8 lbs. less which aligns with the fact that I've been in maintenance-land since February 20th. For all practical purposes, the 0.8 lbs. difference is insignificant so I've done a good job being a dead-eye with my weight. I have a 5-lb. range of my maintenance weight and a recent analysis I did indicates the average daily variance is a mere 0.1 lbs.
While I didn't need a DXA scan to tell me this, what I did want to know is were there any changes in my lean muscle and body fat. The good news is there was because I lost 4.1 lbs. of body fat and gained 3.4 lbs. of lean mass - disregard a 0.1 lb. rounding variance. This is more favorable than my previous report where I had lost 12.8 lbs. of body weight and 12.3 lbs. of body fat.
The report gives me lots of other valuable information that I'll not share in this post.
I continue practicing intermittent fasting, now generally following an 18-hour fasting period and a 6-hour feeding period but I'm flexible, some days my fasting period is longer and other days it's shorter but almost always at least 16 hours because this works for me. IF has become a lifestyle. I generally exercise fasted because I like it.
During this two-month period, my exercise consisted of kettlebell complex workouts, pull-ups, chin-ups, bar dips and running. Some of my pull-ups, chin-ups and bar dips workouts use added weight.
During this two-month period, my average morning body weight was 172.1 lbs. and my average daily consumption of protein was 108 grams which is 0.6 grams per lbs. of body weight.
I'm pleased with my results and will keep marching forward and get scanned again around the first day of Fall 2019.5 -
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Continuing to use this discussion topic to share my journey.
64 year old man, 18.8 percent body fat, sits for a living and does no direct ab/core exercises is seeing visible evidence of a 4-pack starting to assert itself.
My fitness, health and wellness journey continues and I’ll keep marching forward, God willing.2 -
DEXA scans are low-dose full body radiation, so I would caution against getting too many of them in a short period of time.
My recollection is that the dose from a DEXA scanner isn't really much higher than spending a day in Colorado.
Looked it up. 1-4 uSieverts for a DEXA scan. https://www.measureup.com.au/dexa-scans-radiation/
Dose for spending a day in Colorado plateau: 1.2 uSieverts. https://xkcd.com/radiation/
Taking a cross US plane flight: 40 uSieverts.
You'd get less radiation getting a weekly DEXA scan than you would getting a cross country flight every other month.2 -
I am glad this is working for you. I did want to point out the current recommended protein level is 0.8 to 1.0 per lb of lean body mass. So your improved fat loss actually did happen in this range. I definitely think this is a guide and not an exact thing, but wanted to clarify the recommended levels. Good job on the recomp2
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Thank you @slbbw, my protein consumption is up a little but I'm still below the standard prescription I read around here. I'm not training like a bodybuilder or doing the power lifting thing but rather training for upper-percentile cardiovascular conditioning and strength endurance. Nonetheless, my workouts do have a progressive resistance and time under tension components to them.0
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