Set point theory
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magnusthenerd wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »If set point theory exists, then starvation and obesity wouldn't be a thing, yet they are.
It's an excuse with no objective data to support it.
Weight, like almost everything, is an output of behavior.
If people have a set point, why does it preclude starvation and obesity? I think that's just ignoring set point as discussed in research. Applied in a different context, do you believe temperature homeostasis doesn't exist because people die of cold and heat exposure?
The fact that people so frequently maintain a weight within a given environment, despite the narrow range of calories in to out matching that has to happen for it is pretty good evidence for there being some kind of homeostasis of body weight.
And sure, behavior plays in weight, but weight does play in behavior. Give me the ability to change someone's leptin, and I can guarantee you that will change their behavior.
Are you attempting to redefine basal metabolic rate as set point? That's the only scenario where set point holds some manner of validity.
Hormones have a limited impact on defined biochemical pathway acting largely as secondary or tertiary influencers, not primary drivers. Leptin is no different.
No, not basal metabolic rate at all.
Leptin absolutely alters human behavior in response to a calorie deficit. If you think otherwise, the reason you think set point has no evidence is frankly that you just don't know that much about the body of literature.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17986612
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22566584
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/37/11/3061
Take someone that has dieted down and give them leptin and the "suck" of dieting goes away.
Things as minute as twitching and general amounts of motion go down with leptin drops.
I'd say all behavior is ultimately biochemical pathways. If you want to put out something that has scant evidence, try to find any that shows behavior is the result of anything besides material brains and feedback to said brains.
Humans are influenced by hormones, but this is not a primary driver. Man is more than a slave to hormonal impulses.
If you are defining set point as a determined amount of energy reserves in a body, then yes this is a physiological truth. For mankind this is established at ~15-30% body fat largely based upon gender.
What set point is not is a determinant where if subject A was at 300 lbs, loses weight, and their body "sets" their metabolism, hormones, behavior, etc. to return to this subjective weight.3 -
I have briefly read through this and it seems the set point theory from a psychological perspective has been misrepresented. It does not discount calories in verses calories out. It is the point at which your weight thermostat isnsupposively set. When your body falls below this weight, increased hunger and a lowered metabolic rate may combine to restore the lost weight. This increased hunger is as a result of increased levels of hormones like insulin and ghrelin. It does this to maintain homeostasis, the bodies tendency to maintain a balanced or constant internal state.
Just remember that this is a theory only and there are researchers out there doubt it or have abandoned it.
Info sourced from my university psychology texts books.6 -
ashleygroizard wrote: »About fifteen or twenty years ago 'set point theory' was all over the Fat Acceptance sphere. It was overwhelmingly used as an excuse for being fat and not losing weight. 'My body just wants to be this weight' - how do you argue with that?
So now your calling me fat thanks. I am chubby not fat. I’m 1.7kgs off a healthy bmi. My doctor said I’m not overweight
No, I’m not calling you fat, and no reasonable healthy person would interpret that comment in that way.
I strongly suggest you step back from these forums, show these discussions to your therapist, and discuss the reasons for your defensive overrreactions and how you can achieve a mental place where you don’t interpret literally anything that anybody says to you as an attack.23 -
So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?13
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ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
I think getting fit and healthy is a fantastic idea. I also think that we are very limited in giving you the advice you need. Professionals will be of much more assistance to you than us.15 -
Honestly, based on what I'm reading, I can't speak for everyone else commenting, but I think that before you're ready for that help, as @ceiswyn posted, you need to learn how to get to a place where you can listen to objective advice and not see it as an insult or challenge. Until you do, any help that might be offered is likely to be misinterpreted.19
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ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
The point is it seems to be becoming less and less healthy for your mind and you should talk to your therapist about it.
You have posted multiple times the same questions with increasingly anxious comments and yet haven't taken any of the advice onboard. Which leads me to believe that this isn't doing anything to help you at all.
Just above you have stated your therapist has told you you're not overweight (because you don't need to lose much weight) but you have repeatedly referred to yourself as fat/ugly in other threads.
You also state you don't have an eating disorder just healthy interest in fitness and health. This is contrary to what your doctors and therapist believe and is outright denial on your part.
For the sake of yourself and your family, take a step back from all the information that is overwhelming you and resulting in you misunderstanding many comments as personal attacks when they are clearly nothing of the sort. It's almost akin to an alcoholic partaking in a home brewing forum.
People here just want you to get the help of your treatment team so you can actually be healthy rather than enabling what is clearly an unhealthy mindset.19 -
ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
If, on balance, something that is perceived as good is hurting you rather than helping you, for you, today, that something is not a good thing.15 -
It should also be pointed out that when looking at health mental health is as important, if not more important than physical health. You cannot be fit and healthy if your mental health is suffering as this takes a huge toll on your body. This is why getting help from your therapy team is vital for your long term health.12
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tinkerbellang83 wrote: »ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
The point is it seems to be becoming less and less healthy for your mind and you should talk to your therapist about it.
You have posted multiple times the same questions with increasingly anxious comments and yet haven't taken any of the advice onboard. Which leads me to believe that this isn't doing anything to help you at all.
Just above you have stated your therapist has told you you're not overweight (because you don't need to lose much weight) but you have repeatedly referred to yourself as fat/ugly in other threads.
You also state you don't have an eating disorder just healthy interest in fitness and health. This is contrary to what your doctors and therapist believe and is outright denial on your part.
For the sake of yourself and your family, take a step back from all the information that is overwhelming you and resulting in you misunderstanding many comments as personal attacks when they are clearly nothing of the sort. It's almost akin to an alcoholic partaking in a home brewing forum.
People here just want you to get the help of your treatment team so you can actually be healthy rather than enabling what is clearly an unhealthy mindset.
This. You are not currently 'getting help' here at all; because you are too busy getting angry and attacking people for imagined insults to actually take in any of the help that you claim to want. You're just spinning your wheels and getting increasingly defensive, which is a big red flag as regards your mental health.
Until you can work through why you react so badly to advice that you asked for, you're not going to get much out of these forums. You're just going to hurt people. And not just yourself, either, because you are not the only person on these forums who has issues.
When I talked about set point theory being used as an excuse for being fat? I was talking about people in the Fat Acceptance spheres I used to frequent. I was also talking about my past self. I suffer from anxiety and depression, have been in two emotionally abusive relationships, and have spent a lot of time in the past struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation; set point theory gave me a way to somewhat avoid the extra dose of self-hate that came from weighing 385 lb. It cost me a lot and took me a long time to admit to myself that it was an excuse for not having to cope with the effort required to lose weight, let alone to say it publicly. But I thought my experience might be a useful insight for someone else reading this thread.
Thankyou very much to the people above me who interpreted my post the way I'd intended it; that reassurance was much needed!28 -
tinkerbellang83 wrote: »ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
The point is it seems to be becoming less and less healthy for your mind and you should talk to your therapist about it.
You have posted multiple times the same questions with increasingly anxious comments and yet haven't taken any of the advice onboard. Which leads me to believe that this isn't doing anything to help you at all.
Just above you have stated your therapist has told you you're not overweight (because you don't need to lose much weight) but you have repeatedly referred to yourself as fat/ugly in other threads.
You also state you don't have an eating disorder just healthy interest in fitness and health. This is contrary to what your doctors and therapist believe and is outright denial on your part.
For the sake of yourself and your family, take a step back from all the information that is overwhelming you and resulting in you misunderstanding many comments as personal attacks when they are clearly nothing of the sort. It's almost akin to an alcoholic partaking in a home brewing forum.
People here just want you to get the help of your treatment team so you can actually be healthy rather than enabling what is clearly an unhealthy mindset.
This. You are not currently 'getting help' here at all; because you are too busy getting angry and attacking people for imagined insults to actually take in any of the help that you claim to want. You're just spinning your wheels and getting increasingly defensive, which is a big red flag as regards your mental health.
Until you can work through why you react so badly to advice that you asked for, you're not going to get much out of these forums. You're just going to hurt people. And not just yourself, either, because you are not the only person on these forums who has issues.
When I talked about set point theory being used as an excuse for being fat? I was talking about people in the Fat Acceptance spheres I used to frequent. I was also talking about my past self. I suffer from anxiety and depression, have been in two emotionally abusive relationships, and have spent a lot of time in the past struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation; set point theory gave me a way to somewhat avoid the extra dose of self-hate that came from weighing 385 lb. It cost me a lot and took me a long time to admit to myself that it was an excuse for not having to cope with the effort required to lose weight, let alone to say it publicly. But I thought my experience might be a useful insight for someone else reading this thread.
Thankyou very much to the people above me who interpreted my post the way I'd intended it; that reassurance was much needed!
I am so sorry to you and everybody and I can understand because I have had a few suicidal attempts and have self harmed for over 20 years. I really didn’t want to make you feel like dirt. Maybe I should stay off my fitness pal because I take things the wrong way with my borderline personality disorder and I don’t mean to and I really don’t want to hurt anyone18 -
Sorry everyone I really don’t mean to attack anyone and I felt like I was being attacked but obviously took things the wrong way. If everyone wants me to get off my fitness pal I will go and find another way to health and fitness and good diet. I didn’t mean no harm11
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ashleygroizard wrote: »Sorry everyone I really don’t mean to attack anyone and I felt like I was being attacked but obviously took things the wrong way. If everyone wants me to get off my fitness pal I will go and find another way to health and fitness and good diet. I didn’t mean no harm
You're still missing the point, the majority of people don't want you off MFP because they are offended, they want you to take a step back from it because they can see it's not healthy for you because of the behaviour you're exhibiting. Going anywhere else other than your therapist and doctor is not going to lead to health, fitness and good diet, it will more than likely lead to further anxiety, confusion and disordered thinking.
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ashleygroizard wrote: »I’m only trying to see if people have heard about it.
Heard of it. Know it's not a thing.
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Body fat set points and settling points are pretty respected, evidence wise. Evidence based practitioners have discussed them before. Eric helms discusses it a bit in this video: However, that is much different than what the OP has described. The body won't magically go to normal weight if you get adequate nutrition levels and eat at (current) maintenance levels (but perhaps you will if you can learn to listen to satiety cues, which in modern society many people seem to have lost the ability to do imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmir2s4GUgo
Quoting this because the video bears repeating. Set point isn't an excuse for not losing weight. It's an explanation for why some plateaus occur (equilibrium), why obese individuals may have a hard time simply jumping into a healthy lifestyle (neurological responses to environmental changes) and why adherence to weight loss strategies becomes more and more difficult as individuals become more and more lean (looking at you, physique competitors).
Set point theory doesn't contradict CICO. It explores the mechanisms that often drive CI to be equal to or greater than CO despite the desire to lose weight.
For instance, say you have a body fat set point of about 12-14% body fat. That doesn't mean that you can go no lower than 12%. It only means that as you diet down to 10, 8, 7% body fat, you're appetite, cravings, etc. will get stronger and stronger as your body attempts to drive you into actions that would restore a more comfortable body fat percentage. If you ignore the cravings, feed the increased appetite with low calorie, filling foods and thus maintain a calorie deficit, you will continue to lose weight. However, it won't come as easily. The struggle to continue adherence becomes more difficult.
It's like if you were wealthy and had to pay the electric bill. You don't think twice about it. Set it to autopay and don't even worry about the money leaving your account.
But if you've been laid off for 8 months and your savings have dried up and you don't know how your going to buy groceries next week, it's a lot harder. You still pay the bill. The money still goes out...but it hurts more and you probably stare at the bill a while and fret over the check as you write it out. You're also going to be looking into side jobs and ways to come up with cash.
It's the same with "set points." Shedding fat is much easier when you have plenty of it. Once you get very lean though, your body still sheds the weight if you're in a deficit (still paying that bill, conservation of energy) but it's going to cry about it a lot more and fret over the "check." It's also going to be driving you to bring in more calories (money) through side jobs (snacks) to get itself more comfortable. You have the option to ignore those impulses...but their existence does impact adherence (by design, really).
It's too bad the "awesome" button was taken away. Great explanation.
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texasredreb wrote: »OP--Stick around. Keep sharing your thoughts and bouncing theories off the community. I do. I've been woo'ed. It stings somethings, but I'm a live and learn type. AND, I want to live and I want to learn. Don't take it so personal when you hear an answer that isn't what you want to hear.
I’ve learnt so much from the community and I’ve asked my fair share of questions. But ... I’ve massively misunderstood the woo button. I’ve been woo’ing posts all over the place cos I thought it meant wooooo as in yay or even wooohooo 🥳. Now I know it’s probably not a cheerleading move.
In my head it’s now called the boo button 😀
11 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »If set point theory exists, then starvation and obesity wouldn't be a thing, yet they are.
It's an excuse with no objective data to support it.
Weight, like almost everything, is an output of behavior.
If people have a set point, why does it preclude starvation and obesity? I think that's just ignoring set point as discussed in research. Applied in a different context, do you believe temperature homeostasis doesn't exist because people die of cold and heat exposure?
The fact that people so frequently maintain a weight within a given environment, despite the narrow range of calories in to out matching that has to happen for it is pretty good evidence for there being some kind of homeostasis of body weight.
And sure, behavior plays in weight, but weight does play in behavior. Give me the ability to change someone's leptin, and I can guarantee you that will change their behavior.
Are you attempting to redefine basal metabolic rate as set point? That's the only scenario where set point holds some manner of validity.
Hormones have a limited impact on defined biochemical pathway acting largely as secondary or tertiary influencers, not primary drivers. Leptin is no different.
No, not basal metabolic rate at all.
Leptin absolutely alters human behavior in response to a calorie deficit. If you think otherwise, the reason you think set point has no evidence is frankly that you just don't know that much about the body of literature.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17986612
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22566584
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/37/11/3061
Take someone that has dieted down and give them leptin and the "suck" of dieting goes away.
Things as minute as twitching and general amounts of motion go down with leptin drops.
I'd say all behavior is ultimately biochemical pathways. If you want to put out something that has scant evidence, try to find any that shows behavior is the result of anything besides material brains and feedback to said brains.
Humans are influenced by hormones, but this is not a primary driver. Man is more than a slave to hormonal impulses.
If you are defining set point as a determined amount of energy reserves in a body, then yes this is a physiological truth. For mankind this is established at ~15-30% body fat largely based upon gender.
What set point is not is a determinant where if subject A was at 300 lbs, loses weight, and their body "sets" their metabolism, hormones, behavior, etc. to return to this subjective weight.
Okay, so what actually causes behavior if it isn't hormones? Keep in mind neurotransmittters are hormones. What magical nonbiological signaling happens to cause behavior? Actually demonstrate some instead of just asserting.
I'm guessing you don't actually have a very good idea, but you are motivated to think there is a something that makes decisions in a nondeterminist way because you want to hold to a belief about culpability.
And if a person has reached 300 pounds and stayed at that weight for a time, yes, there absolutely is a tendency for the body to defend that weight. Just a week of calorie deficits will drop leptin levels by huge percentages - note this isn't to say the effects are a linear drop in other things.
We can even see that there are people with issues with their leptin production - these people have body fats more than 30%.13 -
ashleygroizard wrote: »tinkerbellang83 wrote: »ashleygroizard wrote: »So there’s people who think I should not be on here getting help to get a healthy fit toned body?
The point is it seems to be becoming less and less healthy for your mind and you should talk to your therapist about it.
You have posted multiple times the same questions with increasingly anxious comments and yet haven't taken any of the advice onboard. Which leads me to believe that this isn't doing anything to help you at all.
Just above you have stated your therapist has told you you're not overweight (because you don't need to lose much weight) but you have repeatedly referred to yourself as fat/ugly in other threads.
You also state you don't have an eating disorder just healthy interest in fitness and health. This is contrary to what your doctors and therapist believe and is outright denial on your part.
For the sake of yourself and your family, take a step back from all the information that is overwhelming you and resulting in you misunderstanding many comments as personal attacks when they are clearly nothing of the sort. It's almost akin to an alcoholic partaking in a home brewing forum.
People here just want you to get the help of your treatment team so you can actually be healthy rather than enabling what is clearly an unhealthy mindset.
This. You are not currently 'getting help' here at all; because you are too busy getting angry and attacking people for imagined insults to actually take in any of the help that you claim to want. You're just spinning your wheels and getting increasingly defensive, which is a big red flag as regards your mental health.
Until you can work through why you react so badly to advice that you asked for, you're not going to get much out of these forums. You're just going to hurt people. And not just yourself, either, because you are not the only person on these forums who has issues.
When I talked about set point theory being used as an excuse for being fat? I was talking about people in the Fat Acceptance spheres I used to frequent. I was also talking about my past self. I suffer from anxiety and depression, have been in two emotionally abusive relationships, and have spent a lot of time in the past struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation; set point theory gave me a way to somewhat avoid the extra dose of self-hate that came from weighing 385 lb. It cost me a lot and took me a long time to admit to myself that it was an excuse for not having to cope with the effort required to lose weight, let alone to say it publicly. But I thought my experience might be a useful insight for someone else reading this thread.
Thankyou very much to the people above me who interpreted my post the way I'd intended it; that reassurance was much needed!
I am so sorry to you and everybody and I can understand because I have had a few suicidal attempts and have self harmed for over 20 years. I really didn’t want to make you feel like dirt. Maybe I should stay off my fitness pal because I take things the wrong way with my borderline personality disorder and I don’t mean to and I really don’t want to hurt anyone
No one said THAT.
Are you currently getting help in coping with your borderline? That’s the best thing you can do for yourself.8 -
ashleygroizard wrote: »Sorry everyone I really don’t mean to attack anyone and I felt like I was being attacked but obviously took things the wrong way. If everyone wants me to get off my fitness pal I will go and find another way to health and fitness and good diet. I didn’t mean no harm
I'm coming into the conversation late but just wanted to say that there are certain theories and suppositions that tend to result in alot of negative reactions on MFP. Set Point just happens to be one of them. On the other hand I have been hugely helped and encouraged on this forum and highly recommend it. You will learn eventually which subjects to avoid, lol. Also try not to take it personally. Sometimes things lose something in the translation when written and can be read to be aggresive when they aren't meant to be. Lastly try to take into consideration that some of us have been on here a while and get frustrated when we see subjects come up again and again that we know can be incorrect or misunderstood.
For what it's worth I think "set point", in my life anyway, can be defined as where I am willing to eat and move to maintain a certain weight. I have not found that my body has tried to force me to go back to 251 pounds even though I was between 235 and 251 for about 30 years. But it took me 2 years to change my habits so that didn't happen. That's just my personal experience.
Please don't give up on the forums. Just read them and learn and take your time on your journey. Good luck.7
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