Impressions on the internet
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You're not wrong, but all the examples up thread were women (I'm dismissing the Jenner family photo as out of place, to be fair). Your example may well apply to a man, but the context of your reply suggested your judgment to be all-encompassing.
Then we can also get into for whom are we even trying to look a certain way, anyway? Maybe that fighter guy kicks *kitten* left, right and center in his sport. How do I interrogate his body? On a performance level, the facts can speak for themselves. On an evolutionary level of does it make me want babies with him? No, not at all. And so.
Additionally I don't think we can assume that this fighter doesn't have body perception issues while still appreciating his physical success.6 -
rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.35 -
pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I can't imagine that he'll have much of an impact outside of perhaps a portion of people who follow boxing. There are a number of reasons 1. boxing isn't particularly popular 2. boxing has weight classes (which isn't so much an issue for people who don't follow boxing so much as I'd assume it play a role in his impact on people who do, especially children and adolescents), 3. he will likely have next to no impact on women and girls - note that I recognize that men and boys are far from immune from issues relating to body image, 4. he isn't known outside of boxing - or at least I'm assuming that's the case.
I suspect what impact he will have will be unrelated to weight and more related to race, ethnicity, and immigration history (and as much as I'd like to entertain that - it would go too off topic).6 -
rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
This needs to be repeated.9 -
rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
This needs to be repeated.
+13 -
ma mang im certain you watched h3h3 for that3
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In addition to your first sentence being exceedingly reductionist, you're missing the fact that a lot of men and boys (as well as girls and women) who have body image issues related to sports play/watch sports that aren't boxing. While Andy Ruiz Jr. is obviously an accomplished boxer, but I don't know why budding but serious rock climber, fencer, jockey, cyclist, soccer player, gymnast, etc would look to that person and say "oh hey so in this sport with weight classes this guy has succeeded so I can too!" when none of the sports I listed have weight classes and favor people with different physiques than heavy weight boxing. All of that assumes they even know who Ruiz is!pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
What would make more sense would be, "I'm looking up to X person because they lost a bunch of matches and then came from the depths of defeat to win xyz title". That is far more universal.
I think that we need to be talking more openly about body issues that men and boys have and that we need to have more resources for things like eating disorders for men and boys. That said, I think that part of that means having nuanced conversations and not assuming that one person will reach all, or even most, people. And yes, you did say, "the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance".9 -
I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.8 -
pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.30 -
While I don't disagree that cisgender men and boys typically have it "easier" in some ways than cisgender women and girls, I think that it's counterproductive to not talk about the fact that some men and boys face serious body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. I think not talking about it also serves as just one of many ways to perpetuate the idea that men and boys shouldn't express or have emotions that aren't in the neighborhood of "mad" or "happy" (note - I don't think you're consciously trying to do this). That being vulnerable is not ok, that it is not masculine (because apparently you have to have masculine traits to identify as male...), that it makes you weak, etc. I also don't think that talking about this takes away from discussing issues surrounding eating disorders and body image in women and girls, especially given the sheer lack of resources and discussion despite the very clear and present issues (never mind that things like men not being able to be vulnerable affects women).pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
The article "Eating Disorders in Men: Underdiagnosed, Undertreated, and Misunderstood" by Strothers et. al (2012) is worth at least skimming and it appears to be open access - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479631/ From the end of the summary:Finally, encouragement of a culture which allows for male vulnerability is a major goal. Men are not supposed to be emotionally vulnerable in our present culture, yet they encounter pressures on a daily basis to be more muscular and meet the current male body shape ideals. This is deleterious for many men as they feel pressure from many sources to meet mainstream society's definition of masculine. Also, men are not supposed to be focused on how they look, so why would they reveal body image or weight concerns?
Here's another article by Räisänen and Hunt, "The role of gendered constructions of eating disorders in delayed
help-seeking in men: a qualitative interview study" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/4/e004342.short (it's also open access, if you want to read the full article click the PDF link on the right). And before people start dismissing qualitative studies - they're are extremely useful. A quote from this article,Many presented late in their illness trajectory when ED behaviours and symptoms were entrenched, and some felt that opportunities to recognise their illness had been missed because of others’ lack of awareness of EDs in men. In addition, the men discussed the lack of gender-appropriate information and resources for men with EDs as an additional impediment to making sense of their experiences, and some felt that health and other professionals had been slow to recognise their symptoms because they were men.5 -
While I don't disagree that cisgender men and boys typically have it "easier" in some ways than cisgender women and girls, I think that it's counterproductive to not talk about the fact that some men and boys face serious body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. I think not talking about it also serves as just one of many ways to perpetuate the idea that men and boys shouldn't express or have emotions that aren't in the neighborhood of "mad" or "happy" (note - I don't think you're consciously trying to do this). That being vulnerable is not ok, that it is not masculine (because apparently you have to have masculine traits to identify as male...), that it makes you weak, etc. I also don't think that talking about this takes away from discussing issues surrounding eating disorders and body image in women and girls, especially given the sheer lack of resources and discussion despite the very clear and present issues (never mind that things like men not being able to be vulnerable affects women).pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
The article "Eating Disorders in Men: Underdiagnosed, Undertreated, and Misunderstood" by Strothers et. al (2012) is worth at least skimming and it appears to be open access - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479631/ From the end of the summary:Finally, encouragement of a culture which allows for male vulnerability is a major goal. Men are not supposed to be emotionally vulnerable in our present culture, yet they encounter pressures on a daily basis to be more muscular and meet the current male body shape ideals. This is deleterious for many men as they feel pressure from many sources to meet mainstream society's definition of masculine. Also, men are not supposed to be focused on how they look, so why would they reveal body image or weight concerns?
Here's another article by Räisänen and Hunt, "The role of gendered constructions of eating disorders in delayed
help-seeking in men: a qualitative interview study" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/4/e004342.short (it's also open access, if you want to read the full article click the PDF link on the right). And before people start dismissing qualitative studies - they're are extremely useful. A quote from this article,Many presented late in their illness trajectory when ED behaviours and symptoms were entrenched, and some felt that opportunities to recognise their illness had been missed because of others’ lack of awareness of EDs in men. In addition, the men discussed the lack of gender-appropriate information and resources for men with EDs as an additional impediment to making sense of their experiences, and some felt that health and other professionals had been slow to recognise their symptoms because they were men.
I don't disagree with any of this, and I don't think eating disorders in men should be ignored or glossed over and they are something to be handled respectfully within the conversation. I guess I just felt like the posts I was responding to were not that.11 -
Dismissing all women (and men) who have had cosmetic surgery as being "unreal" is not realistic or kind. Many, many people on this website have openly admitted to having cosmetic surgery; including the OP. It seems sort of like the pot calling the kettle black...15
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While I don't disagree that cisgender men and boys typically have it "easier" in some ways than cisgender women and girls, I think that it's counterproductive to not talk about the fact that some men and boys face serious body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. I think not talking about it also serves as just one of many ways to perpetuate the idea that men and boys shouldn't express or have emotions that aren't in the neighborhood of "mad" or "happy" (note - I don't think you're consciously trying to do this). That being vulnerable is not ok, that it is not masculine (because apparently you have to have masculine traits to identify as male...), that it makes you weak, etc. I also don't think that talking about this takes away from discussing issues surrounding eating disorders and body image in women and girls, especially given the sheer lack of resources and discussion despite the very clear and present issues (never mind that things like men not being able to be vulnerable affects women).pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
The article "Eating Disorders in Men: Underdiagnosed, Undertreated, and Misunderstood" by Strothers et. al (2012) is worth at least skimming and it appears to be open access - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479631/ From the end of the summary:Finally, encouragement of a culture which allows for male vulnerability is a major goal. Men are not supposed to be emotionally vulnerable in our present culture, yet they encounter pressures on a daily basis to be more muscular and meet the current male body shape ideals. This is deleterious for many men as they feel pressure from many sources to meet mainstream society's definition of masculine. Also, men are not supposed to be focused on how they look, so why would they reveal body image or weight concerns?
Here's another article by Räisänen and Hunt, "The role of gendered constructions of eating disorders in delayed
help-seeking in men: a qualitative interview study" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/4/e004342.short (it's also open access, if you want to read the full article click the PDF link on the right). And before people start dismissing qualitative studies - they're are extremely useful. A quote from this article,Many presented late in their illness trajectory when ED behaviours and symptoms were entrenched, and some felt that opportunities to recognise their illness had been missed because of others’ lack of awareness of EDs in men. In addition, the men discussed the lack of gender-appropriate information and resources for men with EDs as an additional impediment to making sense of their experiences, and some felt that health and other professionals had been slow to recognise their symptoms because they were men.
I don't disagree with any of this, and I don't think eating disorders in men should be ignored or glossed over and they are something to be handled respectfully within the conversation. I guess I just felt like the posts I was responding to were not that.
I was primarily responding to: "While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things."
I didn't intend on writing as long of a reply as I did, but this is me - we shouldn't be surprised
Also the second article that I posted is really good. You, among other people, should totally read it in full. 2 -
texasredreb wrote: »Dismissing all women (and men) who have had cosmetic surgery as being "unreal" is not realistic or kind. Many, many people on this website have openly admitted to having cosmetic surgery; including the OP. It seems sort of like the pot calling the kettle black...
Yeah and she admitted to letting social media influence her which was the point of the thread.
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seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
Perhaps so, but I think the underlying point is that certain celebrities make a maximum effort to appear on social media in ways that cast them in the most favorable (unrealistic) physical light, and they have plenty of (professional) people helping them do that.
Whether photoshop was the specific tool used to create the unrealistic, artificial public image . . . seems kind of trivial in the big picture.
I agree with the point about not shaming people for plastic surgery or even for a carefully curated unrealistic image . . . the image part of it. People can look how they look, and display that as they will. But when in comes to the impact on some of the young women whom the celebs are intentionally trying to manipulate for profit (as it seems in some celebs' cases) . . . well, I question the ethics involved, I guess.7 -
seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
Perhaps so, but I think the underlying point is that certain celebrities make a maximum effort to appear on social media in ways that cast them in the most favorable (unrealistic) physical light, and they have plenty of (professional) people helping them do that.
Whether photoshop was the specific tool used to create the unrealistic, artificial public image . . . seems kind of trivial in the big picture.
I agree with the point about not shaming people for plastic surgery or even for a carefully curated unrealistic image . . . the image part of it. People can look how they look, and display that as they will. But when in comes to the impact on some of the young women whom the celebs are intentionally trying to manipulate for profit (as it seems in some celebs' cases) . . . well, I question the ethics involved, I guess.
That's what I see as the OPs intent to get out there, which may be getting lost a bit in the course of the discussion.4 -
rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
I've been thinking about this overnight. I think if a person deliberately makes themselves a product by shaping a body and an ideal through whatever means and tries to sell it to you via products and services as achievable, they're asking you to judge and to respond with your wallet. Pointing out that certain people doctor their photos and have used surgery out of the reach of the average person isn't any kind of shaming in my opinion, and might actually be a positive piece of news for someone who doesn't know how very edited and curated all their deliberate material is.
In daily life, body judging is something we all do to some extent. How we correct ourselves is important. For the record, unless directly asked, I think the entire world would get on just fine if nobody commented on anybody's physical appearance, ever.4 -
The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.9 -
seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
I showed this one to my graphic designer. It is definitely photoshopped. She looks way skinnier, her breasts are higher and tighter (although that could be because she was jumping), her skin is smoother, and she was stretched.
5 -
This is such a personal subject that it's always going to bring emotions to the top and may be the reason the thread got snippy quite quickly. I wasn't going to comment but I changed my mind
I have a 19 yo daughter and 20 yo son and over the last 6-8 years I've seen my fair share of them trying to keep up with the latest items and unfortunately that's also included something mid-teens didn't have to think about 10 or so years ago - cosmetic surgery. Some of their friends look so different with contoured faces and now a night out for the girls (not exclusively though) includes a spray tan, fake lashes, make up salon, hair salon, fake nails etc. It's naturally fallen for some of them to have eyebrows tattoo'd on to save drawing them each day. I'm not into face tattoo's but these are different and very socially accepted. To the point that they're often part of a birthday present
Last summer my daughter went to Ibiza with her friends and the prep for the holiday was insane. She asked me what I thought about lip fillers and I said I wasn't keen as from the side I think there's the tell tale duck pout going on. Well she only asked me as she was getting it done that day! I did call her Daisy for a few days When they'd calmed down she was delighted with them and said she felt she was ready for Ibiza. That was huge for me and for the time she was away I couldn't stop thinking about how sad it is that having cosmetic surgery is now expected.
I'm 42 and don't dye my grey streaks - I call them highlights - in my long brown hair and don't wear make up often. I thought I was 'natural' but I'm not. We're all vain to a certain degree. We do our best to make sure we're wearing clean clothes that fit, our hair is clean and we smell nice. We do our best with what we have. That also applies to our home, car, holidays etc. I know a few under 30's who regularly have botox and say they know they don't have wrinkles now but they're preventing them from starting in the first place(!).
I do things my nan & grandad think are far too vain. I pluck my eyebrows, I wear make up for an occasion, I go to the hair salon & I use moisturiser. Now the younger generation have more options than we did at their age and we don't always agree that it's progress.
There will always be extremes and the tabloids love the before and after pics to shame people. I'm not sure people have surgery and then pretend they didn't look different before. My whole body is currently undergoing the biggest and quickest change it's had since puberty - weight loss. I've had comments from people about how my appearance has changed and how well I'm doing. Am I dismissing those appearance compliments? No chance, they're keeping me going when the peanut butter is shouting me.
I don't know what to do about the poor body image these fake social media celebs are advertising. They put as much thought & money into their skin, hair, teeth etc that an ad exec would do for the packaging of a multi-million pound product. Cos that's what they are. I think it's our issue to support vulnerable people to understand Insta isn't real life.
Just away to take my face pack off .....
7
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