How to Ensure a Successful Lean Bulk
Replies
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lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.
Yes, I think it is pretty well established science that T levels increase with resistance training. I've also read some info that the anabolic effect of this is fairly transient. But I'm specifically looking for a proof source that supports the assertion:Plus all your testosterone comes from you legs so you would want to work those as much as possible.
I get that the legs are larger muscles. But the assertion above is questionable and a T-nation article that refers to a study of 9 subjects hardly is a convincing case. It would be interesting if the assertion were true.2 -
An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!3 -
I think the longer that you strength train, eat well, and establish a healthy lifestyle the more confident in bulking and cutting you will get. After you've proven you can bulk and cut you'll feel like "I got this". So, the sooner you get started the sooner you will either succeed or fail.... might as well get started!
I'm a big fan of the squat and deadlift. Nothing feels better than watching these lifts go up!2 -
As a tall, skinny guy my fear is the opposite... I fear I'll return to the weakling that I always was.0
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T
Exactly! But because the legs are such a big muscle mass in the body, working these will produce much more growth hormone and a full body growth response than say a tricep dip.
Performing deadlifts, back/front squats you work everything anyway. You could literally just do these exercises day in day out in a simple strength cycle and look incredible and balanced physically
People place bench press in with these compounds but realistically it’s not a compound. I’d opt for push press or military press instead.
I was literally posting that T nation article for the guy above to give him a little insight into it. He didn’t seem to require scientific documents on the studies just more clarity but the data is out there if you search for it.
People believe what they want to believe, if it suits what they enjoy then they will probably adopt it into their training.
If they don’t enjoy it they will claim you don’t need it or avoid it all together. I know plenty of guys who wont squat or deadlift because it’s too much work. You can probably guess what kind of results they get.
8 -
billkansas wrote: »As a tall, skinny guy my fear is the opposite... I fear I'll return to the weakling that I always was.
The only people who are weak are the ones who never try at all.4 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.
Yes, I think it is pretty well established science that T levels increase with resistance training. I've also read some info that the anabolic effect of this is fairly transient. But I'm specifically looking for a proof source that supports the assertion:Plus all your testosterone comes from you legs so you would want to work those as much as possible.
I get that the legs are larger muscles. But the assertion above is questionable and a T-nation article that refers to a study of 9 subjects hardly is a convincing case. It would be interesting if the assertion were true.
Dude, you have google. I don’t have time to go find all the knowledge for you, especially after you insulted me in an earlier post.
If you wanna learn about this stuff go look for it. I would probably start will any peer reviewed studies on stimulating muscle growth first though as you need to brush up on that first.
Yes, well, I've done the research as you can see from the meta analysis I posted above. None of what I've read says anything remotely like "all your testosterone comes from your legs" as you stated.5 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.
Yes, I think it is pretty well established science that T levels increase with resistance training. I've also read some info that the anabolic effect of this is fairly transient. But I'm specifically looking for a proof source that supports the assertion:Plus all your testosterone comes from you legs so you would want to work those as much as possible.
I get that the legs are larger muscles. But the assertion above is questionable and a T-nation article that refers to a study of 9 subjects hardly is a convincing case. It would be interesting if the assertion were true.
Dude, you have google. I don’t have time to go find all the knowledge for you, especially after you insulted me in an earlier post.
If you wanna learn about this stuff go look for it. I would probably start will any peer reviewed studies on stimulating muscle growth first though as you need to brush up on that first.
He already posted info to back his assertions. You haven't.8 -
An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
7 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.5 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.
Yes, I think it is pretty well established science that T levels increase with resistance training. I've also read some info that the anabolic effect of this is fairly transient. But I'm specifically looking for a proof source that supports the assertion:Plus all your testosterone comes from you legs so you would want to work those as much as possible.
I get that the legs are larger muscles. But the assertion above is questionable and a T-nation article that refers to a study of 9 subjects hardly is a convincing case. It would be interesting if the assertion were true.
Dude, you have google. I don’t have time to go find all the knowledge for you, especially after you insulted me in an earlier post.
If you wanna learn about this stuff go look for it. I would probably start will any peer reviewed studies on stimulating muscle growth first though as you need to brush up on that first.
Yes, well, I've done the research as you can see from the meta analysis I posted above. None of what I've read says anything remotely like "all your testosterone comes from your legs" as you stated.
You’ve taken what I’ve said quite literally haven’t you!! Let me clarify as i made the assumption that you would understand from reading the T nation article.
Testosterone is produced in the gonads in men and ovaries in women. - I assumed you would know this as it’s basic anatomy.
One of the ways in which it is released is through working muscles - the more muscle you work = the more testosterone is released. Therefore when I said "all your testosterone comes from your legs” I was referring to the fact that if you work your legs your body will release way more testosterone than any other part of your body.
So if you work your legs every workout your body will grow much more than if you didn’t . - metaphorically speaking “all your testosterone comes from your legs”7 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Who said anything about high rep low weight? In general terms, the strength range is 3 to 5 reps. The hypertrophy range is 8 to 12. Will you get some hypertrophy in the strength range? Sure. Will you gain some strength in the Hypertrophy range? Sure. And yes, of course, one can't work at maximal effort all the time. In his work on Maximum Recoverable Volume and Maximum Effective Volume, Dr. Mike Israetel suggest one shouldn't never work at maximal effort because in has too high an impact on recovery.
So, it all depends on what kind of gains one is looking for as to what their focus should be. The OP's post what about gaining muscle. He didn't mention gaining strength.
5 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.3 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!9 -
There is no such thing as a lean bulk in my opinion. You will add some fat but don't have to get fat, to add muscle. I started my journey at 472lbs near death from conjestive heart failure. I had to change or die! I dropped from 472lbs to 209lbs from diet and a lot of cardio over 2 years. I am 6'6" and at 209lbs I was too skinny and had bad loose skin issues. I began lifting as a means to help loose skin and I got addicted to it! through trial and error I learned what worked to add muscle and not add too much fat because I was afraid of going back to the old fat version of myself. I don't focus on calories that much. I just aim for my protein goal. I mix my training up depending on how my old joints feel. if I feel good, I go heavy. if not I do volume for the day. I have done a few bulks and then cut to get where I am today. I average 275lbs or so after a cut. in a bulk I go up to close to 290-295lbs. I am at my leanest now and just about to finish a bulk. If you eat clean with a surplus of calories and lift consistently you will add muscle! Remember when lifting you need to keep adding weight to the lifts or add reps as you can to keep improving. I wouldn't worry about looking fat as you go if your lifting is on point. Just set a goal and smash it. learn what works for your body, adjust what doesn't.. good luck!0
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lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you don’t enjoy strength then don’t do it. You will still get results by progressive overload.
Romanian deadlift isn’t a conventional deadlift and Is always done 8 - 12 reps.
You’ll never produce insane muscle size unless you are a genetic outliner or on steroids.
If you are seeing results don’t stop and change just because some guy on the internet told you that strength is optimum.4 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »all your testosterone comes from you legs
I have not heard this before---no reason to doubt it, but I had no idea that working legs would increase testosterone production.
Here you go buddy... https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/testosterone-advantage-training
That is just an article. A T-nation article is not a credible proof source. Do you have something in the way of peer reviewed studies or meta analyses to back up this assertion?
This is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058750
From the article:
The acute endocrine response to a bout of heavy resistance exercise generally includes increased secretion of various catabolic (breakdown-related) and anabolic (growth-related) hormones including testosterone. The response of testosterone and AR to resistance exercise is largely determined by upper regulatory elements including the acute exercise programme variable domains, sex and age. In general, testosterone concentration is elevated directly following heavy resistance exercise in men
Doesn't specifically say legs, but since the/legs/glutes have the most muscle mass of the body most people can have a more physically taxing workout doing compound exercises that involve these muscle groups, but a physically demanding resistance workout involving any bodypart would have the effect of raising T.
Yes, I think it is pretty well established science that T levels increase with resistance training. I've also read some info that the anabolic effect of this is fairly transient. But I'm specifically looking for a proof source that supports the assertion:Plus all your testosterone comes from you legs so you would want to work those as much as possible.
I get that the legs are larger muscles. But the assertion above is questionable and a T-nation article that refers to a study of 9 subjects hardly is a convincing case. It would be interesting if the assertion were true.
Dude, you have google. I don’t have time to go find all the knowledge for you, especially after you insulted me in an earlier post.
If you wanna learn about this stuff go look for it. I would probably start will any peer reviewed studies on stimulating muscle growth first though as you need to brush up on that first.
Yes, well, I've done the research as you can see from the meta analysis I posted above. None of what I've read says anything remotely like "all your testosterone comes from your legs" as you stated.
You’ve taken what I’ve said quite literally haven’t you!! Let me clarify as i made the assumption that you would understand from reading the T nation article.
So if you work your legs every workout your body will grow much more than if you didn’t . - metaphorically speaking “all your testosterone comes from your legs”
Yes, I took what you said literally. You didn't qualify it in any way or identify the metaphor. You stated it as an absolute. And thanks for the physiology lesson but I'm quite familiar with how T is produced.
Maybe you want to consider posting in a more accurate way instead of engaging in hyperbole and metaphor. Just a thought.
Well maybe if you weren’t so rude at the very start and came at me like you did I would have been a little less stand offish in my responses. The other guy understood what I meant.
Some people just love to pick holes in things they are not qualified in.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.9 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »So this is my third or fourth time on here trying to Bulk...I lost weight 6 years ago and have always wanted to get into building muscle (I lift constantly and really have a passion for it) and bodybuilding (would like to use my skills to better my physique). However, I always fail to follow through. I know that there are a few culprits:
(1) I get militant with counting. I count every calorie 100% accurately and allow for maybe one meal out a week that I do not count. On the days I do eat out or drink some alcohol, I don’t even go Wild...so if anything it diminishes my daily surplus for that day. But I don’t want to go over board either
(2) I get discouraged that I am not going to put on muscle when I bulk. I convince myself that whatever I’m gaining is just fat and quit.
So as you can see this is stemming from a fear of returning to my fat boy days. I know this is always going to stop me from successfully bulking and I am never going to stop wanting this either. So...any pointers on how to ensure success this time around?
ALSO: if anyone would be able to look over some pictures of me and estimate my body fat and give me a reasonable end goal to strive towards it would be appreciated!
1. Find you maintenance calorie goal and add 200 calories to it.
2. Track your weight over a month. If you gain 0.5lbs then stick with that calorie goal. if you gain more drop it 100 calories. If you gain nothing add another 100 calories.
3. Lift heavy, compound movements such a deadlifts and squats.
4. Keep up the cardio
5. Fast now and then to let your gut heal and reduce bloating.
NOTE; Bulking is a crazy term, you only need to eat a small amount above your maintenance, Adding muscle is a SUPER slow process unless you are a genetic freak.
It is so much slower than fat loss.
If you are getting stronger in the gym then you are gaining muscle.
As a trainer, you would know that getting stronger =/= gaining muscle. One can get stronger due to neuromuscular adaptions even in a deficit, depending on the state of their training. Also, heavy compound exercises are not the most ideal for hypertrophy. They can certainly be part of a well structured program but the ideal rep range for hypertrophy is 8 to 12.
Hypertrophy is dependant on volume. Lifting "heavy" is typically a rep range of 3 to 5. An untrained person will realize some hypertrophy from low rep/ high weight. But a trained person, as it sounds like the OP is, likely won't. Also, the stuff about fasting and letting your gut heal is just plain woo.
OP, a small surplus and a good program like PHAT or PHUL will get it done for you. But the challenge of overcoming your fears is your biggest obstacle.
Not sure why you're saying heavy work is not critical for building muscle when both the programs you suggest have basically half the training days devoted to heavy compound movements and low reps.
PHAT has 2 heavy lifting days a week.
http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html
as does PHAT
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/phul-workout
It would also be interesting for the OP to come back and describe what his "lifting constantly" means, as in how long has he been doing it and what type of program. If he has been lifting for a short time and most of that lifting entails worshiping at the preacher curl bench is is not a trained person.
As OP mentions, posting some pictures would help.
Except that is not really what I said. So, either I was not clear enough or you didn't really understand what I posted. I posted in response to a recommendation to
and I said,Lift heavy, compound movements such a deadlifts and squats.They can certainly be part of a well structured program
PHUL (Power Hypertrophy Upper Lower) and PHAT (Power Hypertrophy Adaptive Training) both operate on a stair step principle with days of strength training and days of hypertrophy training. I believe that to be an effective approach. You gain some strength and then you can perform more volume on the hypertrophy days and on and on. To lift heavy compound movements will greatly improve strength but have less effective results for hypertrophy and vice versa.
An approach that is solely "heavy, compound movements" leaves out the important hypertrophy, or muscle growing piece. The poster who made that recommendation says they are a trainer yet, they don't seems to understand the difference between neuromuscular adaptation for strength gains and hypertrophy for muscle building (as in building mass). As a side note, the work of Mike Israetel has lots of great information on training for hypertrophy. He is considered the authority on it in body building.
But the OP never asked for programming input. So, enough with that rabbit hole and derail. I'm not sure what they are asking for other than how to overcome the mental hurdle of gaining. They are at the low end of BMI. While a pictures and info on their lifting program would be another piece of the puzzle, at that weight and BMI there is plenty of room to bulk. Their BF% is likely fairly low.
I fully understand training mate, it’s you that doesn’t. A person can get a great physique on just the compounds hitting strength only.
Maybe you should look into starting strength programming to understand it.
Hypertrophy occurs when lifting weights if the stimulus is more than previous, whether that be weight or reps. end of story.
It doesn’t have to be 8 - 12 reps
And you are wrong about strength. Strength is between 1 - 6 reps and is normally done in sets of 3 - 5 eg 5 X 5 training.
Volume is weight lifted not reps man. You could do a 100 reps of press ups a day and you won’t get much bigger unless you ADD WEIGHT! you’ll just get good at press ups.
Secondly —
Of course you can add assistance work such as 8-12 reps on hip thrusters or military presses but if your diet is on point you don’t require it for muscle mass.
Mass is built in the kitchen and doing big compound lifts. The mountain didn’t become the mountain doing bicep curls.
Volume is weight + reps + sets. You can add onto any of them, to add more volume. And often it's good to cycle between the three since lifting heavy all the time has impacts (i.e., connective tissue). If you look at some of the work Brad Schoenfeld has done, you can see how a person can achieve hypertrophy even when lifting at 3 reps.
And while I wouldnt' advocate it, one can build muscle in a variety of weights. They certainly don't need squats, deadlifts, bench, or OHP to build muscle. But it can be more optimal. Just look at most bro-splits and how many people built muscle on them.6 -
OP, one tip you could try is going very slow, like gaining a lb or two a month. And once you start to fear your "fatness" a bit, then lose a few lbs and start all over.
Heck, I have seen people put on 10 lbs without really gaining much fat. It was done over an extended period of time (like a year), but they were able to stay lean and still add mass.
ETA: good timing on the thread below. And since it's a female, it makes things harder. Very slow bulk. Added more mass, and you can't really see any fat gains.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10748202/female-first-time-bulking-how-much-longer-its-summer-body-fat-estimate#latest6 -
Thanks for the tips!! I am keeping the surplus at 200 based off of me maintaining at around 2500 I went up to 2700. However in just three days I have gone from133 to 136. I’m not sad cause irrespective of my goal I was below my maintenance range but should I be at all worried by that rapid hop?OP, one tip you could try is going very slow, like gaining a lb or two a month. And once you start to fear your "fatness" a bit, then lose a few lbs and start all over.
Heck, I have seen people put on 10 lbs without really gaining much fat. It was done over an extended period of time (like a year), but they were able to stay lean and still add mass.
ETA: good timing on the thread below. And since it's a female, it makes things harder. Very slow bulk. Added more mass, and you can't really see any fat gains.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10748202/female-first-time-bulking-how-much-longer-its-summer-body-fat-estimate#latest
0 -
Thanks for the tips!! I am keeping the surplus at 200 based off of me maintaining at around 2500 I went up to 2700. However in just three days I have gone from133 to 136. I’m not sad cause irrespective of my goal I was below my maintenance range but should I be at all worried by that rapid hop?OP, one tip you could try is going very slow, like gaining a lb or two a month. And once you start to fear your "fatness" a bit, then lose a few lbs and start all over.
Heck, I have seen people put on 10 lbs without really gaining much fat. It was done over an extended period of time (like a year), but they were able to stay lean and still add mass.
ETA: good timing on the thread below. And since it's a female, it makes things harder. Very slow bulk. Added more mass, and you can't really see any fat gains.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10748202/female-first-time-bulking-how-much-longer-its-summer-body-fat-estimate#latest
No. You didn't gain 3 lbs of fat in 3 days by eating 200 cals more per day. It's just a random fluctuation. Probably water weight. You may want to utilize a weight trending app for a longer picture. You will fluctuate up and down. It's the trend over time that matters.3 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.2 -
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.5 -
HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.
This. The assumption is that everyone who lifts wants to gain mass and strength, quickly as possible. It's more nuanced than that.5 -
HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.
This. The assumption is that everyone who lifts wants to gain mass and strength, quickly as possible. It's more nuanced than that.
Yes, that is exactly the issue with some of these "one size fits all" blanket recommendations.6 -
HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.
This. The assumption is that everyone who lifts wants to gain mass and strength, quickly as possible. It's more nuanced than that.
Yes, that is exactly the issue with some of these "one size fits all" blanket recommendations.
I completely agree, and honestly that tendency to fit everyone under a blanket assumption is the primary reason I don't post much about my routine, which is bothersome because there's some great advice from certain folks on these boards. But I've learned ways to work around various issues/injuries I have that works for me and don't want to explain it every time I post a question lol.
Then there are folks like sardelsa (among others) who obviously knows what she's doing and what she wants, getting unsolicited advice for something she isn't shooting for. Sorry but that's annoying as heck. Ok rant over
8 -
HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.
This. The assumption is that everyone who lifts wants to gain mass and strength, quickly as possible. It's more nuanced than that.
Yes, that is exactly the issue with some of these "one size fits all" blanket recommendations.
I completely agree, and honestly that tendency to fit everyone under a blanket assumption is the primary reason I don't post much about my routine, which is bothersome because there's some great advice from certain folks on these boards. But I've learned ways to work around various issues/injuries I have that works for me and don't want to explain it every time I post a question lol.
Then there are folks like sardelsa (among others) who obviously knows what she's doing and what she wants, getting unsolicited advice for something she isn't shooting for. Sorry but that's annoying as heck. Ok rant over
I feel you brother! And some of these generic prescriptions get posted in such a way that I wonder if the person that posted it even read the OP stated goals. 6 -
HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »
This is the most important part when it comes to a lifting routine.Theoldguy1 wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »An interesting meta analysis on the effects of weight training on hormones. Says nothing about all the testosterone coming from the legs. Only references that larger muscles will produce a larger effect but that all muscles worked help increase T.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293581734_THE_EFFECT_OF_STRENGTH_TRAINING_ON_THE_TESTOSTERONE_LEVEL_IN_MEN_Corespondence_to
An interesting excerpt from the conclusions:Different methods of strength training make a different impact on the level of TE in men, and among them the method of submaximal effort to failure manifests the strongest effects, and it is reasonably characterized as the method for muscle hypertrophy
In the body of the study they define submaximal effort as 75% of max for 8 to 12 reps. So, not the "heavy" lifting typical in strength oriented programs. Interesting!
You do realise back squat will be performed in strength cycles. You can’t do maximum effort all the time. You will not see increases and you will burn out your CNS.
For example
Squat:
5 x 5 each session till you plateau
Next session: Test 8 rep max
Following week: Test 5 rep max
Then: Test 3 rep max
Then: Test 1 rep max
Start 4 X 8 at 75% of 8RM each session untill you plateau
Test 8 rep max
Test 5 rep max
Test 3 rep max
Test 1 rep max
And so.
A program like above is the kind of thing you’d look at for strength.
You won’t see the kind of gains you want with doing high reps/low weight. Unless you are doing roids. You could lift a water bottle and see results on steriods
Just to clarify... what is your definition of high rep low weight? To be honest I rarely go under 8 reps, I don't back squat and usually don't go over 100lbs for my front squats which I also don't do very often. I do deadlift but usually around 8-12 reps and nowhere near my max, so the weight is very manageable and not "heavy". And while I do increase it is usually in overall volume. I think there are many ways to go about muscle gain, as long as you are progressively overloading.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat as they say. But if we are talking about efficiency and maximising muscle gains then strength should be the foundation to all programming.
If you were my client I would recommend you added strength into your programs with your deadlift and squat - back or front squat is still very much a compound but focus on other parts more than others. With fronts the load is more focused on your Abdomen and quads where as back squats is focused on back, hamstrings and glutes. I use both personally.
Rep range depend on the exercise. I’d never go above 6reps on deadlift. If we take for example a lat pull down then 8 - 12
Is fine best as it is an assistance exercise.
But what if that doesn't suit my goals and what I've been doing has been working great for me? Heavy lifting/low rep doesn't bring me to the gym. I don't enjoy it. I love high rep deadlifts, especially Romanian and using dumbbells. Why would you recommend something that I dislike and steer me away from what has been working for my goals? If I wanted to build the largest quads and hamstrings ever, maybe I would consider it, sure. But that is not what I want, at all!
If you are getting the results you want that is great. To be honest, though sometimes people need to do something they "don't like" or is out of their current comfort zone to get results. Applies to most activities in life IMO.
If you’re half assing the most optimal program because it doesnt keep you motivated, then it’s much less optimal than a so called sub optimal routine that motivates you to give it everything you’ve got.
This. The assumption is that everyone who lifts wants to gain mass and strength, quickly as possible. It's more nuanced than that.
Yes, that is exactly the issue with some of these "one size fits all" blanket recommendations.
I completely agree, and honestly that tendency to fit everyone under a blanket assumption is the primary reason I don't post much about my routine, which is bothersome because there's some great advice from certain folks on these boards. But I've learned ways to work around various issues/injuries I have that works for me and don't want to explain it every time I post a question lol.
Then there are folks like sardelsa (among others) who obviously knows what she's doing and what she wants, getting unsolicited advice for something she isn't shooting for. Sorry but that's annoying as heck. Ok rant over
I feel you brother! And some of these generic prescriptions get posted in such a way that I wonder if the person that posted it even read the OP stated goals.
Isn't that the truth.
Hopefully the OP here got some good advice among the "debate." 2 -
Another question: I am in the hospital all day from 4am to sometimes 9pm without much time to eat. On days when I get in so late after the gym (like 10pm or 11) is it ok to just backload my day’s calories and eat like 1400 at once between dinner and a large protein smoothie?0
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