No soreness
Chic_geek31
Posts: 34 Member
If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
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Replies
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Soreness isn't an indicator of progress. Are you progressing in weights? If yes then you are getting stronger.3
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blopmiyers wrote: »Soreness isn't an indicator of progress. Are you progressing in weights? If yes then you are getting stronger.
It’s my first time exercising( in years) I’m not sure what what my starting point should be
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Chic_geek31 wrote: »blopmiyers wrote: »Soreness isn't an indicator of progress. Are you progressing in weights? If yes then you are getting stronger.
It’s my first time exercising( in years) I’m not sure what what my starting point should be
Ah welcome back!
There's a stickied thread on the forum that would allow you to choose whichever program may fit your needs. Bodyweight, dumbell only, etc
If you have any questions regarding exercise in general feel free to let me know.0 -
Chic_geek31 wrote: »blopmiyers wrote: »Soreness isn't an indicator of progress. Are you progressing in weights? If yes then you are getting stronger.
It’s my first time exercising( in years) I’m not sure what what my starting point should be
Soreness is not an indicator of anything useful. It sounds like you started sensibly and gradually. Continue that and gradually increase intensity.5 -
There's DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness. Sometimes it may take an extra day to really feel the muscle fiber tares. Sometimes proper supplementation or diet can alleviate this to make it less intense. If you're not sore you should change up the exercises you are performing or increase reps/weight. If you are not breaking down muscle, you can't repair it to make them grow.11
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Soreness doesn't "mean" you had a good workout or pushed yourself. It is very rare for me to get sore from a workout, but my programming is absolutely effective and I'm getting the results I'm chasing.9
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I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
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FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I disagree. I get DOMS after I take a week off from the gym but following my exact same training protocol. Sometimes conditioned muscles don’t respond the same as less conditioned muscles. I’m not sure this is the OPs case but your conclusion is an N of 1 (well so is mine, but it is clear that the experience is therefore variable)4 -
FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.7 -
FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I don't agree. There are many people that don't achieve soreness and still make plenty of progress. I only get sore if I try a new exercise, even a yoga pose can cause DOMS for me. I work my glutes so often and with such high frequency that I rarely get sore. Also if I worked to total fatigue every time I wouldn't be able to workout as often which would affect my own personal progress. Guess I'm doing it wrong?
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FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I'm also going to jump on the disagree train here. I only get super sore when I change my program or if I had some time off due to illness or whatever. Otherwise, even when I go to failure etc etc, I may get some discomfort - like right now, I can feel my glutes but it's not that 'i can't sit on the toilet' kind of feeling that can happen.
I like to feel like I worked the muscles and I definitely do feel it after each workout (unless I was faffing around and not pushing myself), but it's not to the point of DOMS.6 -
It depends on your training EXP. If you haven't been training for too long and you're not experiencing soreness chances are you aren't going too hard. Or you've adapted to your routine. If you ARE more experienced, this is normal, but you should still feel a subtle sensation of muscle soreness if you've worked hard enough.
Being sore is a good indicator of tissue damage.7 -
FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.
If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.13 -
FatBicycler wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.
If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.
I'd suggest you stop reading BS broscience articles and start reading some actual research on volume and load management. Anything by Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld or Mike Israetel will do. They are all PHDs with extensive backgrounds in hypertrophy research. Israetel's work on Maximum Recoverable Volume is particularly useful.
If you take it upon yourself to offer advise, it's a good idea to actually know something more about the subject than what you read in "articles".
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FatBicycler wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.
If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.
Also in disagreement here. Here's a great interview with Eric Helms. His qualifications are listed at the top. It's a good read that addresses everything being discussed here, with links supporting studies backing his assertions. Have a read.
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/interview-eric-helms-training-muscle-strength/7 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I'm also going to jump on the disagree train here. I only get super sore when I change my program or if I had some time off due to illness or whatever. Otherwise, even when I go to failure etc etc, I may get some discomfort - like right now, I can feel my glutes but it's not that 'i can't sit on the toilet' kind of feeling that can happen.
I like to feel like I worked the muscles and I definitely do feel it after each workout (unless I was faffing around and not pushing myself), but it's not to the point of DOMS.
This is similar to my experience. According to Helms, gains in strength are the best indicator of progress - blinding glimpse of the obvious there lol, but not fatigue or soreness.
Every set to failure (there is a place for that) minimizes the power able to be generated for the next set. If that's the goal for that particular workout, great. Not all the time though. I just started hitting the weights again after a month off for PT, got a great "pumped" workout, feel great, no DOMS. I call that a win lol.6 -
Soreness is a measure of nothing. If you're routinely experiencing DOMS months into a weight training program something wrong is going on.
Nearly every trainee has DOMS when they start getting under a barbell. It's a rare trainee who keeps getting them eight weeks later unless they're doing something wrong and/or training to muscular failure continually.5 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I'm also going to jump on the disagree train here. I only get super sore when I change my program or if I had some time off due to illness or whatever. Otherwise, even when I go to failure etc etc, I may get some discomfort - like right now, I can feel my glutes but it's not that 'i can't sit on the toilet' kind of feeling that can happen.
I like to feel like I worked the muscles and I definitely do feel it after each workout (unless I was faffing around and not pushing myself), but it's not to the point of DOMS.
This is similar to my experience. According to Helms, gains in strength are the best indicator of progress - blinding glimpse of the obvious there lol, but not fatigue or soreness.
Every set to failure (there is a place for that) minimizes the power able to be generated for the next set. If that's the goal for that particular workout, great. Not all the time though. I just started hitting the weights again after a month off for PT, got a great "pumped" workout, feel great, no DOMS. I call that a win lol.
Interestingly, Helm, Shoenfeld and Isaetel have collaborated on study on optimum training frequency. (it might have been a meta-analysis. If I have time later I'll try and find it). There is a great podcast with Israetel where he talks extensively about his work with Minimum Effective Volume (MEV) and Maximum Recoverable Volume (MRV) for hypertrophy. (I'll try to find that too)
He talks about volume being the main driver of hypertrophy and training to failure causing excessive need for recovery and having a detrimental effect on training frequency. The concept is not a complicated one. If you are trying to get muscles to grow, the more frequently you can work them, recover, then work them again, the more they will grow.
He refers to training to failure as increasing fatigue and the need for recovery exponentially vs. training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure. So, training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure more frequently will be optimum for hypertrophy. Because physiology....
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Cahgetsfit wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I'm also going to jump on the disagree train here. I only get super sore when I change my program or if I had some time off due to illness or whatever. Otherwise, even when I go to failure etc etc, I may get some discomfort - like right now, I can feel my glutes but it's not that 'i can't sit on the toilet' kind of feeling that can happen.
I like to feel like I worked the muscles and I definitely do feel it after each workout (unless I was faffing around and not pushing myself), but it's not to the point of DOMS.
This is similar to my experience. According to Helms, gains in strength are the best indicator of progress - blinding glimpse of the obvious there lol, but not fatigue or soreness.
Every set to failure (there is a place for that) minimizes the power able to be generated for the next set. If that's the goal for that particular workout, great. Not all the time though. I just started hitting the weights again after a month off for PT, got a great "pumped" workout, feel great, no DOMS. I call that a win lol.
Interestingly, Helm, Shoenfeld and Isaetel have collaborated on study on optimum training frequency. (it might have been a meta-analysis. If I have time later I'll try and find it). There is a great podcast with Israetel where he talks extensively about his work with Minimum Effective Volume (MEV) and Maximum Recoverable Volume (MRV) for hypertrophy. (I'll try to find that too)
He talks about volume being the main driver of hypertrophy and training to failure causing excessive need for recovery and having a detrimental effect on training frequency. The concept is not a complicated one. If you are trying to get muscles to grow, the more frequently you can work them, recover, then work them again, the more they will grow.
He refers to training to failure as increasing fatigue and the need for recovery exponentially vs. training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure. So, training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure more frequently will be optimum for hypertrophy. Because physiology....
I may have heard those already. They (or similarly titled podcasts) are what led me to examine the volume I was pushing each workout and the frequency per week I was doing that. What tipped me off was that my legs (push) were beginning to feel increasingly weak while pull always felt like I wasn't doing enough.
On squats I was going to within 1 rep of failure every workout, every set. Pull I usually had 2-3 reps left in the tank. With push recovery was slow, 2-3 days before I felt ready to repeat, and with pull I was completely fresh the next day. Go figure
I had a lot to learn, and still do.
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Cahgetsfit wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
I'm also going to jump on the disagree train here. I only get super sore when I change my program or if I had some time off due to illness or whatever. Otherwise, even when I go to failure etc etc, I may get some discomfort - like right now, I can feel my glutes but it's not that 'i can't sit on the toilet' kind of feeling that can happen.
I like to feel like I worked the muscles and I definitely do feel it after each workout (unless I was faffing around and not pushing myself), but it's not to the point of DOMS.
This is similar to my experience. According to Helms, gains in strength are the best indicator of progress - blinding glimpse of the obvious there lol, but not fatigue or soreness.
Every set to failure (there is a place for that) minimizes the power able to be generated for the next set. If that's the goal for that particular workout, great. Not all the time though. I just started hitting the weights again after a month off for PT, got a great "pumped" workout, feel great, no DOMS. I call that a win lol.
Interestingly, Helm, Shoenfeld and Isaetel have collaborated on study on optimum training frequency. (it might have been a meta-analysis. If I have time later I'll try and find it). There is a great podcast with Israetel where he talks extensively about his work with Minimum Effective Volume (MEV) and Maximum Recoverable Volume (MRV) for hypertrophy. (I'll try to find that too)
He talks about volume being the main driver of hypertrophy and training to failure causing excessive need for recovery and having a detrimental effect on training frequency. The concept is not a complicated one. If you are trying to get muscles to grow, the more frequently you can work them, recover, then work them again, the more they will grow.
He refers to training to failure as increasing fatigue and the need for recovery exponentially vs. training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure. So, training 1 to 2 reps shy of failure more frequently will be optimum for hypertrophy. Because physiology....
Would love to read or listen to this0 -
This (I think...geez braincells lol) is where I started...I can't keep track of exactly what I've listened to and watched.
https://radiopublic.com/the-jeff-nippard-podcast-WwJzx0/ep/s1!e24ed1 -
Also... Love when new users abandon their first thread with a single post4
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172
A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.2 -
This (I think...geez braincells lol) is where I started...I can't keep track of exactly what I've listened to and watched.
https://radiopublic.com/the-jeff-nippard-podcast-WwJzx0/ep/s1!e24ed
Yes, that is a great one!1 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172
A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.
I don't think I've listened to this one yet...thanks man 1 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172
A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.
I don't think I've listened to this one yet...thanks man
You got it brother!1 -
Sure appreciate this discussion. It sounds like soreness might be a negative indicator at least for intermediate lifters. Kind of a signal to back off the intensity and/or workout volume a bit of that particular workout and that you may need to get more clever in finding the right intensity/volume combination going forward to keep making strength progress. Wow, the human body is incredible.... it "talks" to you. I have to admit I wasn't "listening" and thought soreness a victory.1
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billkansas wrote: »Sure appreciate this discussion. It sounds like soreness might be a negative indicator at least for intermediate lifters. Kind of a signal to back off the intensity and/or workout volume a bit of that particular workout and that you may need to get more clever in finding the right intensity/volume combination going forward to keep making strength progress. Wow, the human body is incredible.... it "talks" to you. I have to admit I wasn't "listening" and thought soreness a victory.
Me too
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FatBicycler wrote: »FatBicycler wrote: »
I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.Chic_geek31 wrote: »If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.
If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.
I'd suggest you stop reading BS broscience articles and start reading some actual research on volume and load management. Anything by Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld or Mike Israetel will do. They are all PHDs with extensive backgrounds in hypertrophy research. Israetel's work on Maximum Recoverable Volume is particularly useful.
If you take it upon yourself to offer advise, it's a good idea to actually know something more about the subject than what you read in "articles".
So proof. Ok Here are 6 links all talking about training to muscle failure is the optimum way to build muscle. Also have you never heard of dropsets? Which is training to failure over and over. The guys below don’t use terms like “I think” when discussing bodybuilding like your boy Helms does. Who also only links experimental studies as evidence.
Training to failure works. Fact. Helms is at best saying maybe there is a better although unproven way.
Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_to_failure
Mens Journal
https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/how-train-failure-maximum-muscle-growth/
Mens Health
https://www.menshealth.com/uk/building-muscle/a746408/muscle-failure-336358/
Bodybuilding.com
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/layne-nortons-guide-to-failure-training.html
https://www.t-nation.com/training/single-best-muscle-building-method
https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/what-does-training-to-failure-actually-achieve-2837460c5f0f
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The only times I have been able to actually train to complete failure was when I have been training with a trainer who in the end actually has to manually help me push/pull/lift/whatever the weight because I physically just CAN'T anymore.
So when training alone - virtually impossible. I kind of do it when doing unilateral work on the lat pulldown machine for example, when I use my other hand to actually pull down the arm that can't pull anymore and then try to hold the weight and bring it back up slooowwwllly. It's still not the same as when i've done it with a trainer doing the "spotting"
And said trainer costs $120 per 60 exact minutes, so can't do those very often.
After training sessions with that particular person I will feel DOMS, however, not only did I get pushed WAY beyond what I can push myself in my lonely by myself workouts, it also is because I do different workout to what is going on in my plan.
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