No soreness

2

Replies

  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    This (I think...geez braincells lol) is where I started...I can't keep track of exactly what I've listened to and watched.

    https://radiopublic.com/the-jeff-nippard-podcast-WwJzx0/ep/s1!e24ed
  • Scotty2HotPie
    Scotty2HotPie Posts: 143 Member
    Also... Love when new users abandon their first thread with a single post
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172

    A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
    The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    This (I think...geez braincells lol) is where I started...I can't keep track of exactly what I've listened to and watched.

    https://radiopublic.com/the-jeff-nippard-podcast-WwJzx0/ep/s1!e24ed

    Yes, that is a great one!
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172

    A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
    The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.

    I don't think I've listened to this one yet...thanks man :)
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27102172

    A meta-analysis by Shoenfeld, Ogborn and Krieger on training frequency. This is the one I was referring to and I was mistaken about Helms and Israetel being part of it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Onr6vL4qQ
    The podcast with Israetel in MEV and MRV.

    I don't think I've listened to this one yet...thanks man :)

    You got it brother!
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    edited August 2019
    Sure appreciate this discussion. It sounds like soreness might be a negative indicator at least for intermediate lifters. Kind of a signal to back off the intensity and/or workout volume a bit of that particular workout and that you may need to get more clever in finding the right intensity/volume combination going forward to keep making strength progress. Wow, the human body is incredible.... it "talks" to you. I have to admit I wasn't "listening" and thought soreness a victory.
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    billkansas wrote: »
    Sure appreciate this discussion. It sounds like soreness might be a negative indicator at least for intermediate lifters. Kind of a signal to back off the intensity and/or workout volume a bit of that particular workout and that you may need to get more clever in finding the right intensity/volume combination going forward to keep making strength progress. Wow, the human body is incredible.... it "talks" to you. I have to admit I wasn't "listening" and thought soreness a victory.

    Me too :s

  • Cahgetsfit
    Cahgetsfit Posts: 1,912 Member
    The only times I have been able to actually train to complete failure was when I have been training with a trainer who in the end actually has to manually help me push/pull/lift/whatever the weight because I physically just CAN'T anymore.

    So when training alone - virtually impossible. I kind of do it when doing unilateral work on the lat pulldown machine for example, when I use my other hand to actually pull down the arm that can't pull anymore and then try to hold the weight and bring it back up slooowwwllly. It's still not the same as when i've done it with a trainer doing the "spotting"

    And said trainer costs $120 per 60 exact minutes, so can't do those very often.

    After training sessions with that particular person I will feel DOMS, however, not only did I get pushed WAY beyond what I can push myself in my lonely by myself workouts, it also is because I do different workout to what is going on in my plan.

  • FatBicycler
    FatBicycler Posts: 21 Member
    Cahgetsfit wrote: »
    The only times I have been able to actually train to complete failure was when I have been training with a trainer who in the end actually has to manually help me push/pull/lift/whatever the weight because I physically just CAN'T anymore.

    So when training alone - virtually impossible. I kind of do it when doing unilateral work on the lat pulldown machine for example, when I use my other hand to actually pull down the arm that can't pull anymore and then try to hold the weight and bring it back up slooowwwllly. It's still not the same as when i've done it with a trainer doing the "spotting"

    And said trainer costs $120 per 60 exact minutes, so can't do those very often.

    After training sessions with that particular person I will feel DOMS, however, not only did I get pushed WAY beyond what I can push myself in my lonely by myself workouts, it also is because I do different workout to what is going on in my plan.

    It can just be a friend spotting you. Once you do it enough, you know when your on your last complete lift and stop. Doing that last half lift isn’t worth the bonus IMO especially if has potential to be a dangerous lift.
  • tuckerrj
    tuckerrj Posts: 1,453 Member
    edited August 2019
    For the over 60 crowd, it appears training to failure does not provide any additional benefit:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abstract/10.1111/sms.13451
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    Chic_geek31 wrote: »
    If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
    I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.

    Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.

    If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.

    I'd suggest you stop reading BS broscience articles and start reading some actual research on volume and load management. Anything by Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld or Mike Israetel will do. They are all PHDs with extensive backgrounds in hypertrophy research. Israetel's work on Maximum Recoverable Volume is particularly useful.

    If you take it upon yourself to offer advise, it's a good idea to actually know something more about the subject than what you read in "articles".

    So proof. Ok Here are 6 links all talking about training to muscle failure is the optimum way to build muscle. Also have you never heard of dropsets? Which is training to failure over and over. The guys below don’t use terms like “I think” when discussing bodybuilding like your boy Helms does. Who also only links experimental studies as evidence.

    Training to failure works. Fact. Helms is at best saying maybe there is a better although unproven way.

    Wikipedia
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_to_failure

    Mens Journal
    https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/how-train-failure-maximum-muscle-growth/

    Mens Health
    https://www.menshealth.com/uk/building-muscle/a746408/muscle-failure-336358/

    Bodybuilding.com
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/layne-nortons-guide-to-failure-training.html

    https://www.t-nation.com/training/single-best-muscle-building-method

    https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/what-does-training-to-failure-actually-achieve-2837460c5f0f

    You didn't even read your own links :D
    The mens journal states very clearly to keep it limited, very limited as a matter of fact. I stated earlier that there is a place for AMRAP and no one, absolutely no one is saying there isn't. But to do amrap "over and over" for optimal muscle growth simply isn't true.

    To say nothing of the fact that those are all articles and not studies. Article =/= proof sources. And sources like Bodybuilding. Com, wikipedia, and Men's health? Sefiously???

    Exactly! I'll stick with material such as you posted earlier. :)
  • BrettWithPKU
    BrettWithPKU Posts: 575 Member
    JBanx256 wrote: »
    Actual STUDIES showing training to failure is not optimal? Let's see...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30615007

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=30036284

    https://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/bam/article/view/6339

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28965198

    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Citation/2018/01000/Effect_of_Resistance_Training_to_Muscle_Failure.19.aspx

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29809061

    ...and those were just a random smattering pulled from one research review publication. But, pffft, science. AMIRITE?

    But, hey, I can play the n=1 game too! Guess I am "doing it wrong"...

    Science'd!
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    Yeah, pfft science... let's just have a pose down. Whoever is more ripped is right (lol).
  • mitch22098
    mitch22098 Posts: 38 Member
    My question is: Muscle gets larger and stronger when subjected to stress, which tears down the muscle fiber and can cause DOMS. When the muscle repairs itself it gets stronger. If you do not feel the soreness, what indication is there that the muscle was worked sufficiently to stimulate muscle growth? I have been working out since March, 3 times a week, and when I up my reps or sets I feel DOMS for a few days.

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