No soreness

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  • FatBicycler
    FatBicycler Posts: 21 Member
    Cahgetsfit wrote: »
    The only times I have been able to actually train to complete failure was when I have been training with a trainer who in the end actually has to manually help me push/pull/lift/whatever the weight because I physically just CAN'T anymore.

    So when training alone - virtually impossible. I kind of do it when doing unilateral work on the lat pulldown machine for example, when I use my other hand to actually pull down the arm that can't pull anymore and then try to hold the weight and bring it back up slooowwwllly. It's still not the same as when i've done it with a trainer doing the "spotting"

    And said trainer costs $120 per 60 exact minutes, so can't do those very often.

    After training sessions with that particular person I will feel DOMS, however, not only did I get pushed WAY beyond what I can push myself in my lonely by myself workouts, it also is because I do different workout to what is going on in my plan.

    It can just be a friend spotting you. Once you do it enough, you know when your on your last complete lift and stop. Doing that last half lift isn’t worth the bonus IMO especially if has potential to be a dangerous lift.
  • tuckerrj
    tuckerrj Posts: 1,453 Member
    edited August 2019
    For the over 60 crowd, it appears training to failure does not provide any additional benefit:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abstract/10.1111/sms.13451
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    FatBicycler wrote: »
    Chic_geek31 wrote: »
    If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?
    I disagree with the people that say soreness isn’t an indicator. It may not always be the case, but in my experience if you’re not sore you are doing something wrong. You should be experiencing total muscle fatigue when you finish a set (you can’t lift anymore) in the 6-8 rep range if you are doing strength training or 8-12 rep range for Hypertrophy.

    Sorry but you're wrong. Soreness means a lack of conditioning for the load or poor load management and lifting to failure exponentially increases recovery need and interferes with training frequency. Both of these ideas indicate poor load management.

    If you’re trying to do serious bulking every bodybuilding article says you are 100% wrong. Muscle fatigue is what tears the muscle and causes you to build bigger ones. Total muscle fatigue is the best bang for your buck. If you are just trying to build half a pound of muscle a month or if you are new to building muscle your body then it doesn’t matter as much.

    I'd suggest you stop reading BS broscience articles and start reading some actual research on volume and load management. Anything by Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld or Mike Israetel will do. They are all PHDs with extensive backgrounds in hypertrophy research. Israetel's work on Maximum Recoverable Volume is particularly useful.

    If you take it upon yourself to offer advise, it's a good idea to actually know something more about the subject than what you read in "articles".

    So proof. Ok Here are 6 links all talking about training to muscle failure is the optimum way to build muscle. Also have you never heard of dropsets? Which is training to failure over and over. The guys below don’t use terms like “I think” when discussing bodybuilding like your boy Helms does. Who also only links experimental studies as evidence.

    Training to failure works. Fact. Helms is at best saying maybe there is a better although unproven way.

    Wikipedia
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_to_failure

    Mens Journal
    https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/how-train-failure-maximum-muscle-growth/

    Mens Health
    https://www.menshealth.com/uk/building-muscle/a746408/muscle-failure-336358/

    Bodybuilding.com
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/layne-nortons-guide-to-failure-training.html

    https://www.t-nation.com/training/single-best-muscle-building-method

    https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/what-does-training-to-failure-actually-achieve-2837460c5f0f

    You didn't even read your own links :D
    The mens journal states very clearly to keep it limited, very limited as a matter of fact. I stated earlier that there is a place for AMRAP and no one, absolutely no one is saying there isn't. But to do amrap "over and over" for optimal muscle growth simply isn't true.

    To say nothing of the fact that those are all articles and not studies. Article =/= proof sources. And sources like Bodybuilding. Com, wikipedia, and Men's health? Sefiously???

    Exactly! I'll stick with material such as you posted earlier. :)
  • BrettWithPKU
    BrettWithPKU Posts: 575 Member
    JBanx256 wrote: »
    Actual STUDIES showing training to failure is not optimal? Let's see...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30615007

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=30036284

    https://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/bam/article/view/6339

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28965198

    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Citation/2018/01000/Effect_of_Resistance_Training_to_Muscle_Failure.19.aspx

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29809061

    ...and those were just a random smattering pulled from one research review publication. But, pffft, science. AMIRITE?

    But, hey, I can play the n=1 game too! Guess I am "doing it wrong"...

    Science'd!
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    Yeah, pfft science... let's just have a pose down. Whoever is more ripped is right (lol).
  • mitch22098
    mitch22098 Posts: 38 Member
    My question is: Muscle gets larger and stronger when subjected to stress, which tears down the muscle fiber and can cause DOMS. When the muscle repairs itself it gets stronger. If you do not feel the soreness, what indication is there that the muscle was worked sufficiently to stimulate muscle growth? I have been working out since March, 3 times a week, and when I up my reps or sets I feel DOMS for a few days.
  • GaryRuns
    GaryRuns Posts: 508 Member
    edited August 2019
    mitch22098 wrote: »
    My question is: Muscle gets larger and stronger when subjected to stress, which tears down the muscle fiber and can cause DOMS. When the muscle repairs itself it gets stronger. If you do not feel the soreness, what indication is there that the muscle was worked sufficiently to stimulate muscle growth? I have been working out since March, 3 times a week, and when I up my reps or sets I feel DOMS for a few days.

    From what I've read muscle damage isn't the only mechanism that causes hypertrophy, and even when it is one of the mechanisms, the damage isn't always to the level where it causes soreness. And soreness can vary from person to person and from lifting session to lifting session for the same person. In short, pain/soreness isn't a reliable indication of a good workout.

    https://www.builtlean.com/2013/09/17/muscles-grow/

    The only reliable indicator that you're doing it right is by tracking your muscle hypertrophy via measurements, or at least visibly, and by insuring that you're able to progressively increase how much you lift.
  • chrishamilton894
    chrishamilton894 Posts: 63 Member
    In my opinion the muscular soreness is an indicator of muscle damage and the repair work being done. I did a big leg workout once when i was first starting out and my quads were so sore and tight that I couldn’t sit down without it hurting. But now when I do a big session they’re not as bad. Mainly because I’m getting stronger and my body is getting used to the weight.

    It’s all trial and error, remember Arnold says if it hurts it growing.
  • GaryRuns
    GaryRuns Posts: 508 Member
    edited August 2019
    Found a great YouTube video on this here
  • watts6151
    watts6151 Posts: 905 Member
    Dr Mikes take on soreness

    4nutqu5kh9es.jpeg
  • Tedebearduff
    Tedebearduff Posts: 1,155 Member
    Chic_geek31 wrote: »
    If I don’t wake up sore the day following starting a new strength training workout does that mean I didn’t go hard enough?

    Hire a coach and follow her/his program... speak to them about it and they'll make the necessary changes required to your program to ensure progress.

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