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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related

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  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,309Member Member Posts: 5,309Member Member
    raven56706 wrote: »
    sheesh... i talked to my friend about this thread and we are both amazed at the fire behind it.

    In the end, its too early to say that doing extended periods of fasting work magic other than forcing a timed calorie deficit.

    Politics, religion and diet...
  • magnusthenerdmagnusthenerd Posts: 844Member Member Posts: 844Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    raven56706 wrote: »
    sheesh... i talked to my friend about this thread and we are both amazed at the fire behind it.

    In the end, its too early to say that doing extended periods of fasting work magic other than forcing a timed calorie deficit.

    Politics, religion and diet...

    Weird how the moral parts of diet seep in so that the empirical parts become argumentative.
    I suppose there's a remnant of the time when someone's food choices were far more impactful on others - you want to eat that raw rancid meat? Well you're going to get the rest of the tribe sick at worst, and in the more mild case, at least slow us down heading to the next camp site.
  • CSARdiverCSARdiver Posts: 6,167Member Member Posts: 6,167Member Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    sgt1372 wrote: »
    It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.

    It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet

    I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO

    I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted

    Agreed. Every person who dismisses the current studies because most were conducted on rodents or the human sample size was small is doing exactly this. If it were cancer research and a drug was found that eliminated tumors in mice within weeks wouldn’t most people view that as incredibly promising and be excited to see more human trails happen ASAP? I think so

    Every time I post any of the confirmed studies the majority of responses on MFP (including in this thread) dismiss them as insufficient and basically invalid with no mention of the promise found or need to look into it more. It’s ridiculous to me.

    No one has said IF is best for everyone. It isn’t magic. And it doesn’t cost anyone anything to try and see if they experience additional benefits.

    I personally stopped doing IF when I started running early morning. Waiting too long to eat after interfered with my recovery. When I did IF it was an easy way for my to stay in my calories and I found that I got better sleep when I did IF. I experienced none of the health benefits being explored in the studies I posted in this thread - I don’t believe that proves they don’t exist for anyone though. I think, like anything, more research is needed and NOTHING will work for everyone universally the same.

    That's not true. That there's no monetary cost for IF doesn't mean there is no cost. You yourself have indicated it was costing you recovery.
    If someone said to you "look, here's thing X. I have no research that it works, but I like to feel it does, you should try it - oh btw it might screw up your exercise routine and blow your whole training week this week", how would you feel about them suggesting it and saying "oh, and best part it costs nothing!"?
    Beyond training, I have listened to dieticians that feel IF can lead people towards binge behaviors.

    It wasn’t costing me anything lol. It stopped being a suitable plan based on the changes to my workout schedule. I didn’t force myself to stick to a plan that was no longer working and jeapordize my fitness progress as you implied. I stopped IF. No cost.

    To your other points -
    1. There is research and it is mostly promising and positive but it isn’t enough to be conclusive
    2. IF does not have to ruin anyone’s training schedule. Most can workout around their eating window, does your training schedule get ruined if you skip a meal? It stopped working for me personally because I run in the morning and do another workout most evenings, but that’s just me personally and I did not continue the plan at that point so I find the question silly and overly argumentative
    3. I’m a recovering bulimic. When I did IF it in no way triggered my past disordered thinking.


    It’s not for you. That’s great! But to be so determined to prove it is for no one is wrong.

    You don't value your performance? If you value it and IF was making it worse, that means IF had a cost to you. If you changed your workout schedule because it was better, you are signalling that it was costing you something. IF was a trade-off you couldn't afford.

    To the enumerated points (thank, I tend to like that format)
    1. I think you missed my earlier point. When two out of three studies show no effect, that's not promising, that's actually likely to be a statistical anomaly, particularly given the bias against publishing negative results in science.
    2. It would really depend on the schedule. Some people train multiple sessions a day, best spaced far apart because of competing modalities such as people doing endurance and strength/hypertrophy training. IF would obviously not work well with such schedules. Again, that one could make it work with a schedule doesn't mean the act of making it work is not a cost. I get the impression that you just want to narrow the concept of cost to something more like monetary to be "silly and overly argumentative". I'm not saying costs mean something isn't worth paying the cost for, so you don't need to fight the term cost being applied. Calorie-counting has a cost. Training has a cost.
    3. Okay, good for you, and? I know of heroin addicts that take heroin again without triggering addiction spirals. I don't think it follows taking heroin isn't a problematic behavior for people with or even without a history of heroin use.

    I don't even know where you came up with I'm determined to prove IF is wrong every one. Look over the thread, find one spot where I said that, or something that could paraphrase to that. I also doubt you could find me ever saying there shouldn't be more research on it. I don't think you'll ever find me in a position disagreeing with the idea of more research - science is never done, and I do enjoy science. I have dozens of studies I'd like to see happen somewhere out in diet and exercise physiology research. You know what is really "overly argumentative"? Assigning people positions they don't hold. I use to skip breakfast. Heck, when I started losing weight, I alternate day fasted as an eating pattern. In terms of did I lose weight, yes it was working for me.

    I think if you look through the board there should be at least one if not multiple posts where I've said it can be fine as a psychological method for some people to generate a calorie deficit.
    I take great umbrage at people over selling it. Not so much on this board, but I personally have a certain moral disgust for people like Dr. Fung who are profiting off lying and overselling to people.
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    sgt1372 wrote: »
    It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.

    It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet

    I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO

    I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted

    Agreed. Every person who dismisses the current studies because most were conducted on rodents or the human sample size was small is doing exactly this. If it were cancer research and a drug was found that eliminated tumors in mice within weeks wouldn’t most people view that as incredibly promising and be excited to see more human trails happen ASAP? I think so

    Every time I post any of the confirmed studies the majority of responses on MFP (including in this thread) dismiss them as insufficient and basically invalid with no mention of the promise found or need to look into it more. It’s ridiculous to me.

    No one has said IF is best for everyone. It isn’t magic. And it doesn’t cost anyone anything to try and see if they experience additional benefits.

    I personally stopped doing IF when I started running early morning. Waiting too long to eat after interfered with my recovery. When I did IF it was an easy way for my to stay in my calories and I found that I got better sleep when I did IF. I experienced none of the health benefits being explored in the studies I posted in this thread - I don’t believe that proves they don’t exist for anyone though. I think, like anything, more research is needed and NOTHING will work for everyone universally the same.
    Most people might - most people are also ignorant of how inapplicable rodent research is - and it is less applicable when it comes to diet than cancer.
    A lot of people here on MFP, particularly in the debate section understand this about rodent studies. If you posted cancer cure research on rats here, it would probably get some "ah, interesting", not "well we have a cure".

    The “ah, interesting” and maybe a “we should study this more” was exactly the response I had hoped for and expected from this community when I posted the IF study where the men showed some health improvements despite zero change in weight. No one was looking for a “we found a cure” or “it’s magic” response.

    See my previous stance on research of all kinds.

    Case in point, take a look at this comment in a prior thread on IF. I think you'll have a more productive discussion with me viewing me as an interlocutor interested in truth, over a debate - I take debate more for moral issues. I think debating empirical facts with a vested opinion is silly and good way to end up holding false beliefs. I try to hold less and less wrong beliefs:
    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/44042940/#Comment_44042940

    It in no way affected my performance. If you had read my posts completely you’d know that. When I switched my training and got more hungry I stopped IF.

    I’m done with this thread now. The condescending personal attacks are beyond what I’m willing to deal with, especially on a support site.

    I saw no attacks, let alone personal ones?

    Totally agree. On a couple of these types of comments I've wondered whether I'm reading the same thread that the person who posts them is.

    Everybody who doesn't agree with every word I say is a "hater."

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  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,309Member Member Posts: 5,309Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    raven56706 wrote: »
    sheesh... i talked to my friend about this thread and we are both amazed at the fire behind it.

    In the end, its too early to say that doing extended periods of fasting work magic other than forcing a timed calorie deficit.

    Politics, religion and diet...

    Weird how the moral parts of diet seep in so that the empirical parts become argumentative.
    I suppose there's a remnant of the time when someone's food choices were far more impactful on others - you want to eat that raw rancid meat? Well you're going to get the rest of the tribe sick at worst, and in the more mild case, at least slow us down heading to the next camp site.

    Well put...
  • MakateesMakatees Posts: 28Member Member Posts: 28Member Member
    Okay, so I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for 3 and a half months, and I found it to be nothing short of miraculous. Calorie restricting does not work for me. I don’t do Keto but I don’t go overboard on carbs either. I fast super clean. Water and black coffee. That’s it.
    Believe me, I have tried just about every diet in existence and nothing was working. Since starting IF 3 1/2 months ago I have lost 8.4 kg!!
    I have also found that my skin is so much softer, and all the little bumps on my upper arms have disappeared.
    Acid reflux has disappeared. Are used to have to sleep elevated for years, and I can now sleep flat and haven’t had a single acid reflux attack four months.
    Plantar fasciitis has gone suddenly after years of suffering. This all cannot be a councidence!
    I eat whatever I want in a 2 to 4 hr window and do not count calories or weigh food. I also often do 42 hr fasts. Obviously I’ll make healthy choices but I do have the old glass of wine and occasionally dessert if I feel like it. Oh and I haven’t been exercising much because of an injury. Just walking.
    Read the Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung. He explains the science behind it.
  • MakateesMakatees Posts: 28Member Member Posts: 28Member Member

    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Makatees wrote: »
    Okay, so I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for 3 and a half months, and I found it to be nothing short of miraculous. Calorie restricting does not work for me. I don’t do Keto but I don’t go overboard on carbs either. I fast super clean. Water and black coffee. That’s it.
    Believe me, I have tried just about every diet in existence and nothing was working. Since starting IF 3 1/2 months ago I have lost 8.4 kg!!
    I have also found that my skin is so much softer, and all the little bumps on my upper arms have disappeared.
    Acid reflux has disappeared. Are used to have to sleep elevated for years, and I can now sleep flat and haven’t had a single acid reflux attack four months.
    Plantar fasciitis has gone suddenly after years of suffering. This all cannot be a councidence!
    I eat whatever I want in a 2 to 4 hr window and do not count calories or weigh food. I also often do 42 hr fasts. Obviously I’ll make healthy choices but I do have the old glass of wine and occasionally dessert if I feel like it. Oh and I haven’t been exercising much because of an injury. Just walking.
    Read the Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung. He explains the science behind it.

    If IF works for you, then that's great, but its not a miracle, and there is a very obvious reason why it worked. You lost weight because IF helped you restrict calories. The only reason you lost weight is because you were in a calorie deficit. The benefits you noted with reduction in acid reflux and plantar fasciitis are not coincidental, they are easily explained by the fact that you lost weight. Jason Fung doesn't explain any science behind anything, he gives his own unsubstantiated claims as to why he thinks it works. He is a woo peddler to the highest degree, and he does it because it helps him to sell books.


    I thought IF was nonsense before I tried it myself. For years I did the 1200 calories in the form of several small meals a day but I didn’t lose weight. I can’t figure out why the calorie deficit didn’t work but IF does? I’ll track my calories for a couple of days just for interest to see if there’s much of a difference.

    edited October 16
  • AvidkeoAvidkeo Posts: 1,200Member Member Posts: 1,200Member Member
    Makatees wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Makatees wrote: »
    Okay, so I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for 3 and a half months, and I found it to be nothing short of miraculous. Calorie restricting does not work for me. I don’t do Keto but I don’t go overboard on carbs either. I fast super clean. Water and black coffee. That’s it.
    Believe me, I have tried just about every diet in existence and nothing was working. Since starting IF 3 1/2 months ago I have lost 8.4 kg!!
    I have also found that my skin is so much softer, and all the little bumps on my upper arms have disappeared.
    Acid reflux has disappeared. Are used to have to sleep elevated for years, and I can now sleep flat and haven’t had a single acid reflux attack four months.
    Plantar fasciitis has gone suddenly after years of suffering. This all cannot be a councidence!
    I eat whatever I want in a 2 to 4 hr window and do not count calories or weigh food. I also often do 42 hr fasts. Obviously I’ll make healthy choices but I do have the old glass of wine and occasionally dessert if I feel like it. Oh and I haven’t been exercising much because of an injury. Just walking.
    Read the Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung. He explains the science behind it.

    If IF works for you, then that's great, but its not a miracle, and there is a very obvious reason why it worked. You lost weight because IF helped you restrict calories. The only reason you lost weight is because you were in a calorie deficit. The benefits you noted with reduction in acid reflux and plantar fasciitis are not coincidental, they are easily explained by the fact that you lost weight. Jason Fung doesn't explain any science behind anything, he gives his own unsubstantiated claims as to why he thinks it works. He is a woo peddler to the highest degree, and he does it because it helps him to sell books.


    I thought IF was nonsense before I tried it myself. For years I did the 1200 calories in the form of several small meals a day but I didn’t lose weight. I can’t figure out why the calorie deficit didn’t work but IF does? I’ll track my calories for a couple of days just for interest to see if there’s much of a difference.

    If you are only eating in a 2-4 hr window (which by the way sounds incredibly restrictive and can cause hormonal issues, especially for women) the unless you are eating a lot of really calorie dense food, you are probably eating 1200 calories or fewer. Be interesting to see what your tracking shows.
  • MakateesMakatees Posts: 28Member Member Posts: 28Member Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Makatees wrote: »
    Okay, so I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for 3 and a half months, and I found it to be nothing short of miraculous. Calorie restricting does not work for me. I don’t do Keto but I don’t go overboard on carbs either. I fast super clean. Water and black coffee. That’s it.
    Believe me, I have tried just about every diet in existence and nothing was working. Since starting IF 3 1/2 months ago I have lost 8.4 kg!!
    I have also found that my skin is so much softer, and all the little bumps on my upper arms have disappeared.
    Acid reflux has disappeared. Are used to have to sleep elevated for years, and I can now sleep flat and haven’t had a single acid reflux attack four months.
    Plantar fasciitis has gone suddenly after years of suffering. This all cannot be a councidence!
    I eat whatever I want in a 2 to 4 hr window and do not count calories or weigh food. I also often do 42 hr fasts. Obviously I’ll make healthy choices but I do have the old glass of wine and occasionally dessert if I feel like it. Oh and I haven’t been exercising much because of an injury. Just walking.
    Read the Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung. He explains the science behind it.

    If IF works for you, then that's great, but its not a miracle, and there is a very obvious reason why it worked. You lost weight because IF helped you restrict calories. The only reason you lost weight is because you were in a calorie deficit. The benefits you noted with reduction in acid reflux and plantar fasciitis are not coincidental, they are easily explained by the fact that you lost weight. Jason Fung doesn't explain any science behind anything, he gives his own unsubstantiated claims as to why he thinks it works. He is a woo peddler to the highest degree, and he does it because it helps him to sell books.

    This! So it looks like @Makatees , calorie restriction *does* work for you.

    Just like every other person on the planet. ;)

    The only thing I can’t figure out was why I couldn’t lose weight while on 1200 cals doing several small meals a day. I tried tweaking it around to eat more as well, tried 1400 and 1600. I even tried 800 against MFP’s guidelines. I might track for a few days just out of interest to see how many cals I consume in a day. It’ll make an interesting comparison.
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