Getting started with indoor rowing?

Don't recall much discussion of water rowers here, mainly Concept2 rowers.

The mechanics of rowing are the same but the feel & operation of the devices obviously differ. For example, no need to adjust resistance on a C2. If you want to work harder, you just pull harder.

I vaguely recall that there is a way to increase resistance on a water rower (which I read about when I was trying to decide between buying 1 vs a C2) but don't remember exactly how that is done now. I aasume such info is available on Google for the specific type of water rower that you are using.

However, if you are rowing only w/one leg, my guess is that you already are not rowing as efficiently as you could w/both legs and, so, I don't understand why you'd want to increase the resistance and put even greater pressure on the single leg you're using because you'd just even up rowing end up rowing even less efficiently if you did that.

Most of the work in rowing is done w/the legs and until you can use both, I suggest leaving well enough alone before messing w/the resistance level on your rower.

With the Concept 2, and with 2 good legs, they don't recommend increasing the resistance very high. I think the general recommendation is about 6 of the scale of 10 so that you can get form right.

NorthCascades wrote: »

My lower back is sore this morning, which is rare for me. What are the chances this is related?

Very good. The lower back and hip hinge will work muscles you're not accustomed to working (though I know from your job and mountain trails that you're in excellent shape).

I've been thinking about your question. The rower is actually one of the best machines for adaptive (disability) use. However, with that said, it's almost easier (or at least I would think) without an injured ankle in the way. I know some adaptive rowers -- war vets -- that are doing incredible times. Way better than I can!

But not wanting to put any ankle pressure on your injury, this is about the best video I could come up with. Your rear will slide to one side. I'd keep the DF low (drag factor) and also keep the rows shorter or in intervals. Get up, move around and don't sit too long at a time. If you get cockeyed on the rower, your rear will chafe. Happens to me all the time. I have one bad knee and I scoot to one side inadvertently all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhiDAxyzIr4

The rower really works ankle flexibility when you're ready with your ankle down the road.

Happy owner of a WaterRower here. It has gotten an astounding amount of usage in its 6 year in residence.



Yes, the more water in the tank, the more resistance for rowing. However, it's quite impractical to change the water level, so it's more of a "one and done" thing. You fill it up once, and then revisit it in a few years (not months; years). As others have noted above, technique and strength is what gets the flywheel moving.

It is not difficult at all to pull a muscle on the WaterRower - especially back, but for me, also hips. It's really important to learn and utilize good form, even if it means going slower and easier for a long while until you really get used to it. Like, say, a month of practice, with shooting some video of yourself on your phone so you can see your form and compare it to what it should be. You'll probably be surprised how inept you look at first LOL And then one day it'll all come together and your form will be solid.

Doing it one-legged does not sound like a great idea, tbh.

The Concept2 videos are an excellent resource.

Everything was already said by the time I got off the water, let alone by the time I looked at this thread I would underscore that while rowing with one leg is totally doable given how common adaptive rowing is both indoor and out, I agree with Ann in that I don't know that it's especially practical in your situation. What does your trajectory look like in terms how when ankle will be stronger/more mobile/allowing you to get back to sport?

My other suggestion would be to take advantage of where you live. You live in an area with a lot of rowing clubs (thanks UW) including ones that have adaptive programs and probably teach people how to row on rowing machines around this time of year (though a quick look shows that there are still LTR programs on the water in your area of the NW). Don't be afraid to email and ask if you can get some instruction in how to row on an erg (rowing machine). Given the acute nature of your injury, I don't think you'd be considered an adaptive athlete, but I suspect it's worth working with someone who has experience in working with adaptive athletes.

Machka9 wrote: »

With the Concept 2, and with 2 good legs, they don't recommend increasing the resistance very high. I think the general recommendation is about 6 of the scale of 10 so that you can get form right.

If you are referring to the damper lever on the side of the fan, many people mistakenly believe that it it is used to adjust the resistance of the pull.

The damper is used to simulate the movement of a boat on the water NOT the resistance of the pull. The higher the damper setting the the greater the drag (the less it will "glide") and the more quickly you will have to pull again to keep the "boat" (fan) moving and vice versa. A higher setting would be for a hypothetically heavier and bigger boat and a lower setting for a lighter, smaller one.

Generally, a setting between 5-6 is recommended to simulated the movement of a single scull boat. I row 5km daily at a moderate pace and use a damper setting of 5.5.

BTW, climbers make incredible rowers. Not to generalize, but I watched one guy from the UK progress so rapidly -- he's a pretty good climber. He's now one of the top Indoor Lightweight rowers in the UK within two or three years.

Like Curlsintherack said, Dark Horse Rowing on Youtube has some great instructional info as well. If you look at the Concept2 forums, look at the Pete Plan thread. I, ironically, started that thread. The Pete Plan is a rowing plan by Pete Marston, a really strong UK Indoor rower. He's created a lot of rowing training plans (like Hal Higdon's in running). Anyway, the Pete Plan has a beginner plan, so that thread became, over a few years, a beginner thread with tons of beginner questions, including my own. Many really experienced guys chip in and answer anything you could imagine on Indoor Rowing questions. It's a great resource for beginners on the Forums.

NorthCascades wrote: »

I must have said that backwards, it's about 7 to 8 weeks to go. Still not terrible in the long run, and while it's great weather this week, we're going to get a lot of rain for the rest of my healing, it could be much worse.

This started in August, I spent a month of weekends sitting in parking lots for hiking trails reading books while my friends hiked.

Oh I just misread it. I read "three weeks ago" as "three weeks to go". Seven more weeks is harder than 3, but it'll go by quickly when all is said and done. I'm pretty sure you've read about my history of knee surgeries before so I won't regale you again. That said, I will say that one thing that helped get me through them was reading about other athletes who had dealt with long recoveries from injuries. This was not about whether or not I had it better or worse, rather it was a "they managed to do this and come out the other side, how can I do the same".

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.

*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.

sgt1372 wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.

I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:

1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.

And then begin again.

If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.

I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.

In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:

Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.

There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).

aokoye wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.

*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.

If C2 is to be believed (and I'll bet they are), watts and splits are equateable by formula.

I expect rowers use splits because we don't (can't?) measure watts in the boat. What matters is pace, specifically (for any non-rowers who might be reading) that minutes/seconds per 500m that is the rowing split. We do measure splits in boats. Almost close to all we care about.

aokoye wrote: »

sgt1372 wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.

I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:

1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.

And then begin again.

If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.

I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.

In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:

Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.

There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).

I agree with that, but not sure whether the difference is more in the actual movement, or in the description of it being non-standard. (FWIW, I did do USRowing coaching certification education through level 2, and some other coaching education besides that. But coaching ed and $6 will get you a latte. ).

I'd certainly say you don't arch your back in the arms phase: Straight back still at that point, as always.

I've heard the 11 to 1 thing before, but it's not gospel (can vary with body configuration and ab strength; plus one of the ways some machine-only rowers improve pace is via extreme layback (which requires extreme core to pull off, and will probably flip a boat, unless you're one of the Canadian national team of a few years back )).

I also agree with you (Aokoye) that it's legs-body-arms-arms-body-legs drive to recovery, pretty pure, with only enough micro-overlap of the parts on the drive to keep the power curve smooth (or maintain the unweighting of butt on seat through the whole drive phase, depending on how you want to look at it). There's upper body engagement (especially lats) during the legs portion just to maintain the body wedge, and suspend the body weight/leg power between foot stretcher and handle so you're towing the handle along as the legs move the body (and handle!) along the slide. The arms-away/body-over portion of the recovery can make a surprising contribution to split, potentially, too, by keeping the flywheel moving (or not ) on the rowing machine, let alone how important it is in a boat. One of my coaches hated that the standard term is "the finish" because a lot of people end up taking a micro-pause there, as (he believed) a consequence of the terminology plus how the sequence is normally taught from catch to finish (when it's really a continous cycle).

NorthCascades wrote: »

I spent 25 minutes rowing yesterday. I followed some advice from work: slow down to speed up. Focused on form instead of speed and intensity. I kept feeling like I must be getting the back motion wrong, but had no lower back soreness during or after. A little bit of upper back soreness, behind my shoulder blades, and I think this is "the right kind.". My lats and traps are my Achilles heel.

I tried using both legs. The motion doesn't hurt my ankle, but the angle does. Tightening the strap is painful, too. (Tight shoes hurt for the same reason.) So I continued one leg, the other one on the ground.

I feel like this is one of those things that easy to pick up but difficult to master.

It's OK to row feet out (no straps) if you want to try that. It's even useful for some technique issues, especially around the finish-to-recovery transition. We do it as a drill sometimes.

It sounds like you're making good progress, and I'm glad your lower back is doing better.

Between shoulder blades soreness is OK, but be sure that you're keeping your shoulders down (the traps comment is what triggered me to say this - it's not necessarily indicative of a problem, but it matters how you're using them - they're more maintaining structure and connection for the suspension between handle and feet, not so much actually pulling).

A common beginner fault is over-using upper body via pulling shoulders up (perhaps subtly) and other ways, short-changing the more powerful big-muscles lower-body part of the drive. Many people do it, but IMO that problem seems to be a little more common among men, perhaps because on average upper body strength is higher than women's in the first place, and perhaps there's a tendency to be a little more in touch with upper body strength (again, on average, not universal) because of using it more in daily life. Dunno. I've worked with a bunch of beginners (assisting with a decade or more of on-water learn-to-row classes), and it seems to be a pattern, to me.

Many instructional sources tell you to keep your feet (heels) down on the foot-stretcher all the way to vertical shins, which is right, if you can do it. If you can't - or if it would be ankle-sparing for you right now? - it's OK to let the heels come up at the very end of the recovery in order to get vertical shins, as long as the first move of the drive is to reconnect the heels with the foot stretcher at the start of the leg push. Don't wanna be pushing from the balls of the feet for the main drive.

Slowing down is good - very good. It's absolutely possible to get good power at stroke ratings (term we use more than spm) in the lower teens, and working at that can be helpful because the lower spm gives you more think/feel time for technique. If you work on power at a low rating through technique, then gradually increase spm while holding onto the technique and power, that's a good way to progress IMO. Most on-water rowers do huge amounts of indoor rowing at spm in the 20s, and even good rowers use stroke ratings in the teens sometimes for drills. Higher 20s into the 30s is for more limited race-pace training, typically.

As an aside, there's typically a stroke rating at which technique falls apart - maybe not for world-class rowers, but for many of us normal people. On the rowing machine, that technique loss can be a tradeoff for what one can wring out of power and endurance (to a certain extent) at the higher rating. On the water, it normally shows up quite clearly as a slower pace at the higher rating, because technique matters more on water. (Our coach would work with us at various ratings in big boats, and tell us what range to race in. In the single/double, I do a similar thing with a device (Garmin, these days, though specialized ones can be better for those more serious than I now am about training.) )

(On a bunch of threads, I've posted a video of a young woman, Sofia Asoumanaki, breaking a world record at what looks to be spm in the 20s most of the way. If you're interested & haven't seen it, I can post a link. It's quite startling to people who think you have to take the slide like a bat out of perdition to get good pace or a good workout.)

Consider videoing yourself and reviewing it in comparison to the good instructional videos, if you have a convenient way to do that. If you plan on continuing with this, investing up front in getting good technique into muscle memory is a Really Good Plan. Reprogramming is harder. (Ask me how I know. ).

Easy to pick up? Average performance at gyms argues otherwise. You're paying attention to technique, so I think there's more hope for you than average, though. Difficult to master? All those technique details - especially with on-water, but even with machine - are part of what makes rowing fun long term: So many opportunities to fine tune and improve.

Apologies for yet another essay. I could talk about rowing all day. It's a character fault. :flowerforyou: