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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related

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Replies

  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    His proof seems to be that because we don't all have the same color hair that IF will activate an otherwise dormant superhuman aspect of his genetics.
  • fitnessguy266
    fitnessguy266 Posts: 150 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You have repeatedly claimed IF gives metabolic advantages without once providing any sort of proof outside of your n=1. If that isn't disputing science, then I don't know what is. When you get called out on it, instead of offering proof, you offer more n=1 arguments, then you say you don't want to debate and backpedal. You know what is proven, and true 100% of the time? CICO.

    Proof for what exactly? A vast majority of you have provided research material, articles, and links on IF that would give us all a Harvard education on the subject. At this point in the thread, everyone is aware that IF is one of many dieting strategies to control caloric intake in an effort to lose weight.

    However, no one has taken into account, or even acknowledged, that weight loss and fat loss although tied, are VERY different result wise over a period of time. When does OPTIMIZED fat loss occur? When insulin has reached baseline levels due to glucose depletion, the amount of fat being mobilized contingent upon period of time stores has been depleted. One can argue, and rightfully so, that the same can be achieved through a low carb, or Keto diet. But what about.....never mind.
  • fitnessguy266
    fitnessguy266 Posts: 150 Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    His proof seems to be that because we don't all have the same color hair that IF will activate an otherwise dormant superhuman aspect of his genetics.

    Pretty good attempt at humor my friend, but you really can't be oblivious to the fact that results can be highly individualized based upon genetic design.........right? I hope not......
  • fitnessguy266
    fitnessguy266 Posts: 150 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    See above response, you all have done well providing this thread with research and articles giving further insight to the matter....I have provided personal experience quantified over a period of time using different diets, and that was my intent. You can make your own determination of what's best for you through trials of your own, based on your own research, and what you consider the most sustainable.
  • fitnessguy266
    fitnessguy266 Posts: 150 Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    His proof seems to be that because we don't all have the same color hair that IF will activate an otherwise dormant superhuman aspect of his genetics.

    Pretty good attempt at humor my friend, but you really can't be oblivious to the fact that results can be highly individualized based upon genetic design.........right? I hope not......

    Highly individualized would not in any way shape or form account for 6 pounds in 6 weeks. You really don't get that?

    Dude....it's 6 pounds in 6 weeks....do we need to revisit the basic fundamentals of weight loss? How is that so difficult to ascertain? I'm truly at a loss here....please elaborate further or rephrase your question please.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You have repeatedly claimed IF gives metabolic advantages without once providing any sort of proof outside of your n=1. If that isn't disputing science, then I don't know what is. When you get called out on it, instead of offering proof, you offer more n=1 arguments, then you say you don't want to debate and backpedal. You know what is proven, and true 100% of the time? CICO.

    Proof for what exactly? A vast majority of you have provided research material, articles, and links on IF that would give us all a Harvard education on the subject. At this point in the thread, everyone is aware that IF is one of many dieting strategies to control caloric intake in an effort to lose weight.

    However, no one has taken into account, or even acknowledged, that weight loss and fat loss although tied, are VERY different result wise over a period of time. When does OPTIMIZED fat loss occur? When insulin has reached baseline levels due to glucose depletion, the amount of fat being mobilized contingent upon period of time stores has been depleted. One can argue, and rightfully so, that the same can be achieved through a low carb, or Keto diet. But what about.....never mind.

    So what exactly are you debating in this debate thread. That results are individual. While that is true, it is within a narrow range of variability and nothing like what you have claimed from your personal experiences.

    No matter what you want to believe, physiology, is still physiology, biology is still biology and physics are still physics. So, once again, why are you in a debate thread? All you seem to want to do is repeated stated your personal experience that seems to defy science. Ok, good for you. Believe what you like. There is nothing to debate about subjective belief, however erroneous it might be for all the reasons that have been pointed out.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    edited November 2019
    NovusDies wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    His proof seems to be that because we don't all have the same color hair that IF will activate an otherwise dormant superhuman aspect of his genetics.

    Pretty good attempt at humor my friend, but you really can't be oblivious to the fact that results can be highly individualized based upon genetic design.........right? I hope not......

    Highly individualized would not in any way shape or form account for 6 pounds in 6 weeks. You really don't get that?

    Dude....it's 6 pounds in 6 weeks....do we need to revisit the basic fundamentals of weight loss? How is that so difficult to ascertain? I'm truly at a loss here....please elaborate further or rephrase your question please.

    Right. The fundamentals of weight loss state that weight is lost at ~3500 calorie per pound. What you have said is that all things being equal that IF gave you the results after the same calorie and training regimen failed to do so in 6 week segments before it.



  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 6,002 Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You seem to be certain of a lot of things but have proof for very little.

    His proof seems to be that because we don't all have the same color hair that IF will activate an otherwise dormant superhuman aspect of his genetics.

    Pretty good attempt at humor my friend, but you really can't be oblivious to the fact that results can be highly individualized based upon genetic design.........right? I hope not......

    Highly individualized would not in any way shape or form account for 6 pounds in 6 weeks. You really don't get that?

    Dude....it's 6 pounds in 6 weeks....do we need to revisit the basic fundamentals of weight loss? How is that so difficult to ascertain? I'm truly at a loss here....please elaborate further or rephrase your question please.

    Right. The fundamentals of weight loss state that weight is lost at ~3500 calorie per pound. What you have said is that all things being equal that IF gave you the results after the same calorie and training regimen failed to do so in 6 week segments before it.

    This is the point, you are claiming a 6lbs in 6 weeks loss due to IF in and of itself...
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Well, I am certain they do, hence the appearance in the show. Listen....no one here is disputing the "science" behind the IF process, however, what is being debunked is it how the supposed "controlled studies" are a one size fits all outcome for every human being on the planet. The studies provide a "baseline" for a constant, not what will occur 100% of the time....

    You have repeatedly claimed IF gives metabolic advantages without once providing any sort of proof outside of your n=1. If that isn't disputing science, then I don't know what is. When you get called out on it, instead of offering proof, you offer more n=1 arguments, then you say you don't want to debate and backpedal. You know what is proven, and true 100% of the time? CICO.

    Proof for what exactly? A vast majority of you have provided research material, articles, and links on IF that would give us all a Harvard education on the subject. At this point in the thread, everyone is aware that IF is one of many dieting strategies to control caloric intake in an effort to lose weight.

    However, no one has taken into account, or even acknowledged, that weight loss and fat loss although tied, are VERY different result wise over a period of time. When does OPTIMIZED fat loss occur? When insulin has reached baseline levels due to glucose depletion, the amount of fat being mobilized contingent upon period of time stores has been depleted. One can argue, and rightfully so, that the same can be achieved through a low carb, or Keto diet. But what about.....never mind.

    So what exactly are you debating in this debate thread. That results are individual. While that is true, it is within a narrow range of variability and nothing like what you have claimed from your personal experiences.

    No matter what you want to believe, physiology, is still physiology, biology is still biology and physics are still physics. So, once again, why are you in a debate thread? All you seem to want to do is repeated stated your personal experience that seems to defy science. Ok, good for you. Believe what you like. There is nothing to debate about subjective belief, however erroneous it might be for all the reasons that have been pointed out.

    And you know it is subjective belief based on how it is presented. If I suddenly lost 6 pounds in 6 weeks doing IF while believing that my variables had all stayed the same I would present it as an anomalous result. I would not steadfastly state that my result was proof of something. The less willing that a person is willing to accept that their interpretation of the results could be wrong the more they prove they are biased and so was their conclusion.

    My field requires a lot of data analysis and I the first thing I do even when I get an expected result is assume it is wrong. I check and recheck everything that led up to the result before I present it to my client.
  • michaelsvance
    michaelsvance Posts: 16 Member
    According to research, there has been some really good benefits to IF. Yes, it is a way to restrict calories without necessarily counting them, but it has also been proven to help with blood pressure, blood sugar, and your overall digestive health, because you are extending your time without food, it gives the digestive system extra time to clear everything out and process everything. You feel less bloated (at least I do) you have more normal bowel movements and it helps regulate hunger because we all know that we are creatures of habit, so times feeding like IF helps teach your brain when to increase Ghrelin, the hunger hormone. You can combine it with Keto, low carb, low fat, Paleo, Mediterranean, DASH, or any other diet because essentially IF isn't a diet. It only controls when you eat, not what you eat. Hope that info helps some.
  • magnusthenerd
    magnusthenerd Posts: 1,207 Member
    According to research, there has been some really good benefits to IF. Yes, it is a way to restrict calories without necessarily counting them, but it has also been proven to help with blood pressure, blood sugar, and your overall digestive health, because you are extending your time without food, it gives the digestive system extra time to clear everything out and process everything. You feel less bloated (at least I do) you have more normal bowel movements and it helps regulate hunger because we all know that we are creatures of habit, so times feeding like IF helps teach your brain when to increase Ghrelin, the hunger hormone. You can combine it with Keto, low carb, low fat, Paleo, Mediterranean, DASH, or any other diet because essentially IF isn't a diet. It only controls when you eat, not what you eat. Hope that info helps some.

    I believe the propose benefits have already been discussed. The blood pressure should be an artifact of weight loss that doesn't hold up statistically.
    As far as blood sugar, it is also possible that it is not IF but the feeding windows typically used - and that's something I heard pointed out by an IF researcher. She noted that most IF involves skipping breakfast which means you're not getting as early an effect of food driving down the cortisol rise that usually happens in the morning.
  • snickerscharlie
    snickerscharlie Posts: 8,578 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    According to research, there has been some really good benefits to IF. Yes, it is a way to restrict calories without necessarily counting them, but it has also been proven to help with blood pressure, blood sugar, and your overall digestive health, because you are extending your time without food, it gives the digestive system extra time to clear everything out and process everything. You feel less bloated (at least I do) you have more normal bowel movements and it helps regulate hunger because we all know that we are creatures of habit, so times feeding like IF helps teach your brain when to increase Ghrelin, the hunger hormone. You can combine it with Keto, low carb, low fat, Paleo, Mediterranean, DASH, or any other diet because essentially IF isn't a diet. It only controls when you eat, not what you eat. Hope that info helps some.

    You know how I know you didn't read through the entire thread? Seriously, this is like the same *kitten* on repeat, and it's obvious that these people haven't read anything other than a blog post on a pro-IF site, or some other "expert" who is selling magical weight loss cures to sell books. It cracks me up when I hear claims about a diet "teaching" the body anything, because that assumes that our internal organs need to learn how to work properly. Thats not how it works. Thats not how any of this works.

    Yup! That's right up there on the bs scale along with your digestive system needing a rest. If that's true, don't your heart and lungs deserve a few hours off every once in a while, too?
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    So has this thread settled the debate on IF?
  • yukfoo
    yukfoo Posts: 871 Member
    edited November 2019
    So has this thread settled the debate on IF?

    This debate will never end...Today. tomorrow, next week, next month. Just like the hundreds of pages that preceded this diatribe. Someone will ask again and again and off we go... again. lol
  • raven56706
    raven56706 Posts: 918 Member
    haha. i thought this would be just two pages when i started it awhile ago. The fact that it went to Nov 27th is heartwarming haha
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited December 2019
    carolpa1 wrote: »
    I didn't read the whole thread, yet but I will because i think IF has health benefits important to ME. When my DH was hospitalized for weeks last year I was not eating dinner because I didnt want to cook for 1. I ate breakfast, lunch at the hospital. Nothing again until the next morning. 15 lbs lost, blood sugar improved so much I cut my diabetes meds way back. This could have been from the weight loss, but my arthritis pain went away, and so did my urge incontinence. That was the biggest shocker of all. Now that I'm back to eating through the day I've gained back only a few lbs, but my arthritis is back and so is the incontinence. I want those benefits again. But this is for me. I don't try to push my ideas on others. We are all different.

    Often losing weight/eating at a deficit has benefits if one is overweight even before significant weight loss. I think that's likely the explanation for your experience. But it is true that the studies I've seen about IF are more likely to show a benefit for meals eaten earlier in the day (something about circadian rhythm) vs. late in the day (even though the latter can be very beneficial for some in controlling cals too).

    Here's one interesting study: https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30253-5 (For some reason my link isn't posting right, so you have to cut and paste it.)

    (I will note that despite this, I ate 3 meals, no snacking, and dinner quite late -- I would usually go from a lunch around noon to dinner around 9, which was just about as long as the fast period between the end of dinner and when I'd eat in the morning some days, and lost weight quite easily and without hunger, so I don't think eating late is a big problem at all if someone finds that an easier schedule. Generally I think people pursue a strategy that is easiest for them specifically to achieve goals, as that will be easier to maintain.)
  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 6,002 Member
    edited December 2019
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    carolpa1 wrote: »
    I didn't read the whole thread, yet but I will because i think IF has health benefits important to ME. When my DH was hospitalized for weeks last year I was not eating dinner because I didnt want to cook for 1. I ate breakfast, lunch at the hospital. Nothing again until the next morning. 15 lbs lost, blood sugar improved so much I cut my diabetes meds way back. This could have been from the weight loss, but my arthritis pain went away, and so did my urge incontinence. That was the biggest shocker of all. Now that I'm back to eating through the day I've gained back only a few lbs, but my arthritis is back and so is the incontinence. I want those benefits again. But this is for me. I don't try to push my ideas on others. We are all different.

    Often losing weight/eating at a deficit has benefits if one is overweight even before significant weight loss. I think that's likely the explanation for your experience. But it is true that the studies I've seen about IF are more likely to show a benefit for meals eaten earlier in the day (something about circadian rhythm) vs. late in the day (even though the latter can be very beneficial for some in controlling cals too).

    Here's one interesting study: https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30253-5 (For some reason my link isn't posting right, so you have to cut and paste it.)

    (I will note that despite this, I ate 3 meals, no snacking, and dinner quite late -- I would usually go from a lunch around noon to dinner around 9, which was just about as long as the fast period between the end of dinner and when I'd eat in the morning some days, and lost weight quite easily and without hunger, so I don't think eating late is a big problem at all if someone finds that an easier schedule. Generally I think people pursue a strategy that is easiest for them specifically to achieve goals, as that will be easier to maintain.)

    I find the circadian angle interesting. Before artificial light made daytime a 24 hour period, we probably slept whole lot more. What do you not do while you're sleeping? Eat. Much like we exercise to try and replace an overall less active lifestyle, maybe fasting is a way to mitigate all those extra hours we are now awake when we probably didn't used to be...
  • LoveyChar
    LoveyChar Posts: 4,336 Member
    I fast periodically. At noon, I will have completed a 24 hour fast. The truth is that most people do not have the discipline or self regulation to fast. I won't get into the many benefits of fasting because if you haven't done your own research, I'd just be wasting my time... The geniuses here are much more credible than any documented research and you should trust their opinions. My husband has done many fasts over several days. My longest has been a 41 hour fast. I maintain 105 pounds at 5 foot tall.