Good Days Versus Chicken Wing Train Wrecks
BradOWGolf
Posts: 13 Member
First post to the boards – curious about the math and the science on this:
If I go say 6 days with a good calorie intake and exercise… you know, baked chicken, veggies, fish, lots of water and minimal snacking… all the things that mostly bore me to eat and do, but I’m green versus the calories daily goal by say 1,300 calories for 6 days…yay me.
BUT then on Friday I have a Buffalo Wild Wings Train Wreck: 8 wings, slathered in ranch dressing, a couple of deep fried cheese-sticks, gourmet cheeseburger and 4 beers – gets me to Negative 1,700 calories and RED for just one day.
Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
If it is all about calorie intake and calorie deficits, how could it not?
If I go say 6 days with a good calorie intake and exercise… you know, baked chicken, veggies, fish, lots of water and minimal snacking… all the things that mostly bore me to eat and do, but I’m green versus the calories daily goal by say 1,300 calories for 6 days…yay me.
BUT then on Friday I have a Buffalo Wild Wings Train Wreck: 8 wings, slathered in ranch dressing, a couple of deep fried cheese-sticks, gourmet cheeseburger and 4 beers – gets me to Negative 1,700 calories and RED for just one day.
Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
If it is all about calorie intake and calorie deficits, how could it not?
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Replies
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BradOWGolf wrote: »First post to the boards – curious about the math and the science on this:
If I go say 6 days with a good calorie intake and exercise… you know, baked chicken, veggies, fish, lots of water and minimal snacking… all the things that mostly bore me to eat and do, but I’m green versus the calories daily goal by say 1,300 calories for 6 days…yay me.
BUT then on Friday I have a Buffalo Wild Wings Train Wreck: 8 wings, slathered in ranch dressing, a couple of deep fried cheese-sticks, gourmet cheeseburger and 4 beers – gets me to Negative 1,700 calories and RED for just one day.
Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
If it is all about calorie intake and calorie deficits, how could it not?
First you have to subtract your daily deficit from the 1700 calories.
If you are trying to lose 1 pound per week you subtract 500.
If you are trying to lose pounds per week you subtract 1000.
What is left is how many calories you have eaten above maintenance. So let's say for ease that you are trying to lose 1 pound per week. That means you ate 1200 calories above maintenance. If you are close to your calorie goal your deficit for the previous 6 days was 3000 calories. Now your deficit for the week is 1800 calories so you will lose a half a pound instead of a full pound.
Some weeks will go like that. You should not expect perfection and all progress is good progress even if it was not all you hoped.10 -
Oh and try to remember that if you feel deprived during your 'on' days too often you will keep creating 'off' days. It is better to control your boredom with treats you plan to eat so you do not eat treats that were unplanned.8
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It's about calorie intake and deficits over time. Water weight retention and digestive contents in transit show up on the body weight scale, even though neither of them is fat (the thing most of us are actually concerned about).
Salt and carbohydrate intake above one's normal amount will increase water retention, until those things are metabolized (and that's only one of a whole bunch of water retention triggers that's part of a normal, health body). Eat more volume than normal, and that means more food/water in the digestive system than average, some of which will be eliminated as waste (it can take 50+ hours for full digestive transit).
Bottom line: In the short run, if your goal is fat loss, the bodyweight scale is a lying liar that lies. (It will show you a reasonable trend if tracked over multiple weeks and months).
Exaggerated example: I started out weighing in the 120s. I got to the 180s and probably beyond. (I'm only 5'5"). Did that happen overnight? No, probably took close to a decade or maybe even more (don't recall).
Why would loss be about what we do on one day, if gain isn't? It's calorie intake vs. expenditure, over time.
Look at your average daily net calories for the week. Is that near (slightly over, slightly over, or right on) your net calorie goal? If so, you're on track, and you're likely to lose weight (but you won't see it on the scale right away, for reasons mentioned).
If your average daily net calories for the week exceeds your maintenance calories (not your goal calories) for the week, then yes, you've ruined all your progress. It's possible for so-called "cheat days" to do that.
If I read your post right, your net for the whole week is about 400 calories over goal (1700 - 1300). If you're set on MFP for half a pound or more of weekly loss, you're probably still under your maintenance calories, and will lose weight overall. (The only reason I say "probably" is I don't know how accurate your logging is routinely, nor do I know whether you're one of the many people for whom statistical estimates of calorie needs tend to be close to accurate, or farther off.)
But no worries, just get back on track: You've still got a shot at making your average daily calories for the month result in a calorie deficit. (Don't try to "make up for it": Just eat close to your goal calories daily.) In this sense, it's what we do for the majority of our days that matters, vs. one truly unusual day.
It's what happens over time that matters.
Best wishes!13 -
I watched a show once that said it really only takes 100 extra calories per day over your maintenance level to gain 10 pounds in a year.
100*365 = 36,500/3500 (amount of calories roughly equal to a pound)= 10.43
For me that was a huge eye opener. 100 calories is really nothing, especially if it is a calorie dense food.
Once in a while it won't kill you to go over your deficit or even over your maintenance but it can be a slippery slope as well if you don't keep an eye on it.12 -
BradOWGolf wrote: »First post to the boards – curious about the math and the science on this:
If I go say 6 days with a good calorie intake and exercise… you know, baked chicken, veggies, fish, lots of water and minimal snacking… all the things that mostly bore me to eat and do, but I’m green versus the calories daily goal by say 1,300 calories for 6 days…yay me.
BUT then on Friday I have a Buffalo Wild Wings Train Wreck: 8 wings, slathered in ranch dressing, a couple of deep fried cheese-sticks, gourmet cheeseburger and 4 beers – gets me to Negative 1,700 calories and RED for just one day.
Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
If it is all about calorie intake and calorie deficits, how could it not?
I similarly have been afflicted with Barfooditis over the years. It's brutal when it flares up. What you've described as a Friday binge has served at times, before I got serious in 2019, as my appetizer, before the serious caloric content arrived.
There is no magic answer, but what I came up with for Binge Management 101 when I started my diet in May was: wings OR deep fried cheese OR gourmet cheeseburger. With an AND before the beers, because who are we kidding, BarFoodItis victims are not going to give up the beers.
I've found that when I'm in a bar food scenario, which is my favorite kind of food, I can't really do much damage if I have one special treat. With one treat, there's no 10 pound scale increase the next day, no regret-avoid scale-overeat the next day cycle, just a teeny bit less weight loss overall and then back to it the next day.
It's the second treat - the burger after the wings, or the wings after the cheese sticks, or, the fried shrimp sticks after the cheese and before the burger and then a few more wings - where the excrement collides with the fan.
You can hold the line at one treat. It's a fair compromise between what you need and what you want, and is doable.13 -
barfooditis. That made me laugh. I’ve been there so many times. I agree with trying to choose just one item of food. My sister says ‘when the drink is in, the wit is out’
For me I actually had to give up the whole Friday night every week drinking a load and then eating lots of fried food. I just do it once every couple of months now. Because I only had a small amount to lose it was wiping out my deficit. I don’t miss it all that much. I do something else on a Friday now that isn’t food and drink related.4 -
If you switch to a keto diet chicken wings becomes health food, as long as they aren't breaded, which if they are real buffalo style wings they shouldn't be.1
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you might wnat to consider - are your current calorie goals too low (your user name seems to indicate male and 1300cal is below what a male should eat minimum a day); so my assumption is that you probably have set an agressive diet goal - which means no, one day of binging won't hurt you, but it you do it all the time it may.
Why not when you go out on friday night - pick 1 thing you really want and limit the alcohol - ie if you had only had 2 beers and maybe the wings - but not the cheese sticks and cheeseburger you would have been fine2 -
Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words:
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CardinalComb wrote: »If you switch to a keto diet chicken wings becomes health food, as long as they aren't breaded, which if they are real buffalo style wings they shouldn't be.
Chicken wings are not free of calories so they still have to be portion controlled even on keto if attempting to lose weight.10 -
It’s my impression that the OP was saying that he’s “in the green” by 1300 calories over 6 days. Ie, under his calorie goal by a little more than 200 per day. In effect, “banking” 1300 calories that he can eat later and still be at goal. Then the chicken wing extravaganza put him in the red by 1700 calories in one day. So if that’s the case, then OP, yes you’ve wiped out the 1300 you were under over the course of 6 days, but are you already eating at a deficit if you break even each day? If so, then you still have that going for you (minus the extra 400 cal overage from chicken wings).1
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lightenup2016 wrote: »It’s my impression that the OP was saying that he’s “in the green” by 1300 calories over 6 days. Ie, under his calorie goal by a little more than 200 per day. In effect, “banking” 1300 calories that he can eat later and still be at goal. Then the chicken wing extravaganza put him in the red by 1700 calories in one day. So if that’s the case, then OP, yes you’ve wiped out the 1300 you were under over the course of 6 days, but are you already eating at a deficit if you break even each day? If so, then you still have that going for you (minus the extra 400 cal overage from chicken wings).
Thank you all for the responses -- indeed I was focused on something like this: 1400 per day goal, go under by an average of 200 per day for 6 days due to a combination of exercise and diet. So, over 6 days I'm net 1,200 to the good. But on one day, I go 1,600 net to the bad -- i.e. 1400 calories easily surpassed by the Chicken Wing Extravaganza for a total of 3,000 net on one Chicken Wing Day.
I am pretty sure the collective responses indicate that the math says this one binge day of Chicken Wings 1,600 over my 1,400 goals wipes out the rest of that hard work that got me to an average of 200 for 6 days / 1,200 total. I didn't think it could be any other way, but a guy can dream.0 -
I think you misinterpret the collective wisdom.
If your goal is 1400 per day, your goal ALREADY INCLUDES A DEFICIT.
Dare I say it, as a guy, your goal at 1400 already includes AN AGGRESSIVE deficit.
banking a FEW calories for a SLIGHTLY larger meal is a good strategy for a beer or two on the weekend.
Banking a LOT OF CALORIES on top of an AGGRESSIVE deficit is a good way to induce a restrict-binge mind-set.
It is NOT a good long term strategy for most people.
And "not good" is a very mild characterization.
Perhaps it is a reflection that you can't have a very aggressive weight loss deficit and a large bar day at the same time. Perhaps it is a reflection of something else.
A strategy that has a much higher possibility of working better long term, might go like this:
A smaller daily deficit. Say 500 Cal a day instead of 1000 Cal a day, yielding say a goal of 1900 to eat instead of 1400.
Save an extra 100 Cal each day over the 500 deficit. Six days later you have 600 Cal available to spend on a couple of beers.
AND you still lose at a 1lb a week rate.
OR. Forget the extra deficit when you already have a 1000 Cal a day deficit goal. That's an aggressive goal, if you recall. If you want to go ahead and have a bar night out of it, you CAN.
All that is going to happen is that your bar night will reduce your expected average weekly weight loss assuming you keep meeting your goals.
Say your weight loss with -7000 net for the week is estimated at 2lbs. Now you have a bar meltdown as you put it and instead of even the 1600 you want to eat over, you eat 1750 over. Your total net calories for the week are -5250 and you will lose 1.5 lbs.
This is still an aggressive loss. How much weight are you targeting to lose?
I lost 72.5lbs that way. In a year. In retrospect I wouldn't have actually wanted to go any faster, and this was NOT fast according to % weight loss per week as it took me from the 240's to the 160s.
This is not a "HARD WORK" issue.
There is no extra reward because you arrive at your destination via a harder path than anyone else.
Your goal should be FINDING A WAY YOU CAN LIVE HAPPILY WITH, and doing so within the constraints of meeting your goals.
As easily as you can, for you.
Time is a variable that you control.
Deliberate excess is also a variable you can choose to control as to the degree of excess you indulge in.
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BradOWGolf wrote: »lightenup2016 wrote: »It’s my impression that the OP was saying that he’s “in the green” by 1300 calories over 6 days. Ie, under his calorie goal by a little more than 200 per day. In effect, “banking” 1300 calories that he can eat later and still be at goal. Then the chicken wing extravaganza put him in the red by 1700 calories in one day. So if that’s the case, then OP, yes you’ve wiped out the 1300 you were under over the course of 6 days, but are you already eating at a deficit if you break even each day? If so, then you still have that going for you (minus the extra 400 cal overage from chicken wings).
Thank you all for the responses -- indeed I was focused on something like this: 1400 per day goal, go under by an average of 200 per day for 6 days due to a combination of exercise and diet. So, over 6 days I'm net 1,200 to the good. But on one day, I go 1,600 net to the bad -- i.e. 1400 calories easily surpassed by the Chicken Wing Extravaganza for a total of 3,000 net on one Chicken Wing Day.
I am pretty sure the collective responses indicate that the math says this one binge day of Chicken Wings 1,600 over my 1,400 goals wipes out the rest of that hard work that got me to an average of 200 for 6 days / 1,200 total. I didn't think it could be any other way, but a guy can dream.
No, not if I understand you right.
Listen to PAV, above.
Your 1400 (which is probably too aggressive a goal for you**) already includes a calorie deficit for weight loss. I don't know how much, but most likely you have at least a 2 pounds a week loss goal factored into that.
If so, your maintenance calories, the calorie level at which you would currently neither lose nor gain weight, would be 2400 a day. You were under that not just by the 200 calories by which you were under goal, but also a further 1000 calories built into that goal, for a (too excessive) total of 1200 calories per day, for 6 days. That's a total of 7200 calories of cumulative deficit, a theoretical loss of just over two pounds.
Then you ate the wings, etc., going 1600 calories over your 1400 calorie goal (ate 3000 calories total). That would be 600 calories over that 2400 calorie theorized maintenance level on that day. Subtract that 600 from the 7200; that would give you a defict for the week of 6600, or nearly 1.9 pounds fat loss for the week. Because you ate all that sodium and stuff, you'll see a gain, not a loss, on the scale the next day, and probably for a few days. If you don't do anything wacky, things will settle down, and you'll see the loss on the scale in a few days.
Since MFP didn't give you that 1400 goal**, I'm not sure that your maintenance calories are 2400. They're likely close to that, though, if not more, assuming you're a younger male of average-ish height, overweight, and not unusually inactive (as in nearly comatose).
Eat more. It'll help you binge less. And you'll still lose weight.
** You're a male, according to your profile. Even MFP won't give you a goal that small. It thinks men won't get adequate nutrition on less than 1500. (It's right, generally.) Where did you come up with 1400??!? I'm a not-so-tall li'l ol' lady, for heaven's sake, and I lost weight at good clip at 1600 or more daily gross calorie intake when I wasn't all that overweight (let's say somewhere in the 150s pounds). While I'm a mysteriously good calorie burner for an old woman, 1400 is a crazy low goal for a male who's anything remotely close to average height. If I sound angry here, imagine me as your worried old MFP auntie, since I'm surely old enough: I truly care, and I sincerely want you to succeed, but you're not going about this in a healthy way. Please let MFP set a sensible goal for you, then follow it (don't eat way under it). That's a bad plan.6 -
It does sound as if your calorie goal is on the aggressive side and I agree with what AnnPT77 has to say.
On the subject of having a blowout, though, my personal experience tells me that if I do it on one single day I am punished much less harshly than if I were to overeat the same amount of calories, but fewer each day over a period of several days. For me the bank account analogy does not work out quite the same as if calories were cold, hard cash.
A crazy excess on one binge day appears to provide more calories than my body knows what to do with and it seems not to hang onto them all. I have also discovered, however, that this approach DOES NOT work if it is done regularly, such as 6 days of deficit and one day of massive surplus, rinse, repeat. I allow myself maybe two crazy binge days a year (say Christmas and birthday) and that is it. Even then I try to be mindful of when I am full, and my eating capacity these days is far less than it once was, so a crazy binge these days would be more like 3,500 calories max, whereas it used to be 4,500 easily once you factor in a few cocktails as well as the food. Ugh. I don't even like thinking about it.2 -
Man, am I stupid. I just re-read all the posts and looked at some other calorie counters. All along I thought the MFP calorie goal needed to be beaten daily to achieve the weight loss I entered for my goal. Come to find out, the calorie goal is what you need to achieve the weight loss goal. Thus, 1,500 MFP per day includes losing weight. If I beat it by 300 per day, I am potentially at risk of my body slowing down metabolism and reaching what some describe as 'starvation mode' -- this could be why my rate of weight loss has slowed. I feel dumb.8
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BradOWGolf wrote: »Man, am I stupid. I just re-read all the posts and looked at some other calorie counters. All along I thought the MFP calorie goal needed to be beaten daily to achieve the weight loss I entered for my goal. Come to find out, the calorie goal is what you need to achieve the weight loss goal. Thus, 1,500 MFP per day includes losing weight. If I beat it by 300 per day, I am potentially at risk of my body slowing down metabolism and reaching what some describe as 'starvation mode' -- this could be why my rate of weight loss has slowed. I feel dumb.
There are very good reasons not to consistently undershoot your calorie goal and create a larger-than-intended deficit, but "starvation mode" isn't one of them -- it's not a real thing.
There are multiple reasons why your rate of loss may have slowed down.
But either way, don't feel dumb! None of us were born understanding everything about energy use and weight management -- we all learned along the way, just as you're doing.0 -
BradOWGolf wrote: »Man, am I stupid. I just re-read all the posts and looked at some other calorie counters. All along I thought the MFP calorie goal needed to be beaten daily to achieve the weight loss I entered for my goal. Come to find out, the calorie goal is what you need to achieve the weight loss goal. Thus, 1,500 MFP per day includes losing weight. If I beat it by 300 per day, I am potentially at risk of my body slowing down metabolism and reaching what some describe as 'starvation mode' -- this could be why my rate of weight loss has slowed. I feel dumb.
Not stupid
There are lots of different websites with lots of different formulas, and many newbies misunderstand how MFP works!
This thread is always a great place to start learning:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p11 -
BradOWGolf wrote: »Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
The "banking calories" crowd will say it doesn't matter but I don't share that point of view.
You won't turn into a fat mess if you have a binge day every wk or so, but I believe that "consistency matters" and that it is better to try to stay at or below your cal target EVERYDAY than to binge excessively, even if you "make up" the difference by under eating the rest of the week.
That said, what ultimately matters for wt loss or maintenance, is eating at or below your cal goal (assuming that the goal will actually achieve your goal).
In other words, it is all about CI<CO, regardless of the time frame that is used to measure it.0 -
BradOWGolf wrote: »Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
The "banking calories" crowd will say it doesn't matter but I don't share that point of view.
You won't turn into a fat mess if you have a binge day every wk or so, but I believe that "consistency matters" and that it is better to try to stay at or below your cal target EVERYDAY than to binge excessively, even if you "make up" the difference by under eating the rest of the week.
In contrast, a proper refeed day can have many benefits. Adherence, hormonal as well as to boost workout performance. Obviously if someone goes off track and they can't get back on track that might not be the best method for that person since sticking to calorie goal over time is most important.2 -
BradOWGolf wrote: »Does that one train wreck ruin the entire prior 6 days?
The "banking calories" crowd will say it doesn't matter but I don't share that point of view.
You won't turn into a fat mess if you have a binge day every wk or so, but I believe that "consistency matters" and that it is better to try to stay at or below your cal target EVERYDAY than to binge excessively, even if you "make up" the difference by under eating the rest of the week.
That said, what ultimately matters for wt loss or maintenance, is eating at or below your cal goal (assuming that the goal will actually achieve your goal).
In other words, it is all about CI<CO, regardless of the time frame that is used to measure it.
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If you're using the app on your phone, you can look at "Nutrition" and weekly average. That will tell you how you're doing as far as your overall goal. As long as THAT number is around your calorie goal, you're good to go. I prefer to eat a bit less some days, more on others so I can have wings or pizza or whatever it is without having to reduce my portion to make it fit in a daily goal.1
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I do the same thing occasionally but I do try to limit the damage a bit. For example in that scenario I'd have skipped the cheese sticks and also ordered a slightly less calorific burger.
I don't think a single session like that will make a significant difference though. I've been weighing myself daily and taking a 7 day rolling average which results in a pretty much straight line showing weight change.
I've also noticed that after drinking a lot I wake up nearly 1kg lighter (presumably water loss) and then I get a huge rebound of nearly 2kg before settling down to the weight I was before drinking. That definitely makes weight tracking more difficult.0
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