How do I get past my bitterness with previous doctors, trainers, dieticians unable to help?
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norman_cates
Posts: 95 Member
I has always had trouble losing weight.
Classic mesomorph.
And 4 years ago really buckled down and logged food in MFP, and tracked calorie usage using Fitbit. With the numbers saying that I was 3500-4000 calories in deficit every week. And over 4 or 5 months saw no change in weight. Nothing. And no one was able to help. They all mouthed the mantra of "calories in, calories out". And one day I was so exhausted in the gym I couldn't even lift an empty bar. And I walked out and didn't go back. I got every medical test under the sun. Thyroid, testosterone, hormones, etc etc. Nothing. And I stayed away for the last 4 years.
Over the last 4 months I've lost about 11kg. By not eating much. Appetite suppressors and metabolism enhancers. Unhealthy stuff.
This year I started back in January, slowly. So now I'm trying to find someone willing to work with me and if something isn't working in a month or some reasonable (but defined) time frame, then we change it up. Because I can't go through another 5 months of people saying "oh just wait!".
I don't believe I am a thermodynamic freak who can be in negative energy and not lose weight. Unless of course the calorie mantra is just wrong. Which I have to think it is. And that everyone it works for is self selected for success using it. And everyone else is ignored because we don't fit the paradigm. (The last few months have shown me how bitter I am about doctors, trainers and dieticians.)
I also have to accept the possibility that I was self sabotaging by eating non-logged food. Im sure I did a bit. But I TRIED to be honest. And I find it hard to believe that I could eat 3500-4000 extra calories a week without noticing.
I really need to dig out of this. But every time I start talking about it, the anger and bitterness starts welling up.
I need something that isn't the same old thing that I'm sure didn't work before. Or a commitment to change whatever it is if it isn't working.
Classic mesomorph.
And 4 years ago really buckled down and logged food in MFP, and tracked calorie usage using Fitbit. With the numbers saying that I was 3500-4000 calories in deficit every week. And over 4 or 5 months saw no change in weight. Nothing. And no one was able to help. They all mouthed the mantra of "calories in, calories out". And one day I was so exhausted in the gym I couldn't even lift an empty bar. And I walked out and didn't go back. I got every medical test under the sun. Thyroid, testosterone, hormones, etc etc. Nothing. And I stayed away for the last 4 years.
Over the last 4 months I've lost about 11kg. By not eating much. Appetite suppressors and metabolism enhancers. Unhealthy stuff.
This year I started back in January, slowly. So now I'm trying to find someone willing to work with me and if something isn't working in a month or some reasonable (but defined) time frame, then we change it up. Because I can't go through another 5 months of people saying "oh just wait!".
I don't believe I am a thermodynamic freak who can be in negative energy and not lose weight. Unless of course the calorie mantra is just wrong. Which I have to think it is. And that everyone it works for is self selected for success using it. And everyone else is ignored because we don't fit the paradigm. (The last few months have shown me how bitter I am about doctors, trainers and dieticians.)
I also have to accept the possibility that I was self sabotaging by eating non-logged food. Im sure I did a bit. But I TRIED to be honest. And I find it hard to believe that I could eat 3500-4000 extra calories a week without noticing.
I really need to dig out of this. But every time I start talking about it, the anger and bitterness starts welling up.
I need something that isn't the same old thing that I'm sure didn't work before. Or a commitment to change whatever it is if it isn't working.
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Replies
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To answer the question in the post title: perhaps realize that healthcare practitioners are humans and that some humans don't get along with other humans.
Be open to experimenting with different healthcare pros until you find the right professional relationship for you. Word of mouth helps. At this point, you may not have many options since many healthcare pros are doing telephone or virtual consults only. You may also want to look into the possible psychological reasons you're eating when you do or what you do.
Speaking of which, you said "I also have to accept the possibility that I was self sabotaging by eating non-logged food. Im sure I did a bit."
This is what I'd call couched language (I'm big on the words that people chose).
Either you did log or you didn't log. There's no possibility or grey area here, my friend. And you'd never know if you had 3k, 4k or 10k extra calories over or under for the week...unless you log. Every. Single. Morsel.
That's how MFP works, for better or for worse. If this app doesn't work for you in terms of its (admittedly strict) need to log, then perhaps something like Noom may be good to try too. They have the mental health aspect as well as the logging aspect (minus the spotlight focus on calories).
Wishing you the best on your journey. Really. I hope others chime in with some insights for you too, Norman!11 -
First of all, being a mesomorph is not a thing. Even if it were, that would mean you were naturally given to putting on muscle and being athletic. Endomorphs are the fat ones. But again, it’s not a thing, it’s a made up theory which has been debunked for decades.
It’s actually more common than you might think for people to eat more calories than they realize. One study using radioactive trackers in food found that obese people in particular logged only a third of the calories they consumed. Obese people have loads of practice in self-deception. You are right that you are almost certainly not a metabolic freak. You’re just a normal person. 11 kg in 4 months - six pounds a month - is a perfectly reasonable and healthy rate of loss. There’s not such a thing as a metabolism enhancer so you can stop doing that part and take credit for losing weight the only way that ever works, eating less.
I would suggest logging accurately, logging everything, and weighing all portions including packaged foods so that you aren’t tempted to cheat. Avoid restaurants and takeouts where it’s not possible to log accurately, at least for a while. And if your Fitbit is overestimating your calorie burns, stop syncing it and record your exercise manually. Fitbits are notorious for overestimating calorie burns.12 -
Yeah I meant endomorph. Sorry. For sure I'm not mesomorph.
And your reply is typical of why I have zero confidence in trainers etc. There are many who do talk about endo, meso and ectomorph body types. And you say it's nonsense. Everyone believes something different.
And they all think they are right.
You think you are right. So, what's your proof? Where's your (relevant) research? How was it debunked? Why should I believe what YOU are saying?
Where's their research?
You probably 100% believe calories in, calories out. There are many who don't. I sure don't at the moment.
Who do we BELIEVE!! Seriously! according to any one set of trainers/dieticians, everyone else is lying or stupid.
What do we have to demand to know that someone knows they are talking about?
And of course we are all a bit different. That's why I want to KNOW that if I can as accurately as possible log all my food, drink etc intake, then the massive pain and inconvenience of doing that is GOING TO BE WORTH IT. That if I see no result, that I can look at the macronutrients and maybe adjust. And find someone who knows anything about it.
If I log everything accurately and the same thing happens, then I guarantee that people, you both included, will just shrug and go "Well, he's just done it again. He's lying to the food tracker." Because it's easier to dismiss the people who are fat as always lacking self control.
How do you two do losing weight and maintaining? If it's pretty easy for you, then we don't need to hear from you, because you do not have the same problems. If it is difficult, then do you accurately keep logs any more? Or was doing it for 3 or 4 months sufficient to work out the general shape of it. And then regular measurements to keep track of measurements.
I am steeling myself to doing this again. To measuring myself at least once a week in as many relevant ways as possible. Arms, legs waist etc etc. WEight as a very broad measure.
First though I need MFP to recover my data from 4 years ago that they have lost. (Yes, I've contacted support.) So that I can have a baseline to start from. Not your problem, but I'm very angry about it.
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Ok sure. I'm sure I ate some stuff that was not logged. I'm trying to be a bit honest about it.
Speaking of which, you said "I also have to accept the possibility that I was self sabotaging by eating non-logged food. Im sure I did a bit."
This is what I'd call couched language (I'm big on the words that people chose).
As I say, 3500-4000 calories a week of it? I don't think I'm that dishonest with myself.
It also doesn't account for other measurements not changing. Like waist measurements and so on. Expending that much energy, doing a lot of weight training, should have at least resulted in SOMETHING.
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rheddmobile wrote: »There’s not such a thing as a metabolism enhancer so you can stop doing that part and take credit for losing weight the only way that ever works, eating less.
What? Of course there are metabolism increasers. Caffeine for one. Mild sure. There are others, all the way up to the medically prescribed or illegal like the amphetamine classes.
Please explain the increase in warmth and sweating I get with this.
Appetite suppressors are something I need to find good ones for. Because I genuinely seem to be able to get by on quite small amounts of food. Where as if I leave my body to it's normal hunger, I eat WAY more than I do with appetite suppressors.rheddmobile wrote: »And if your Fitbit is overestimating your calorie burns, stop syncing it and record your exercise manually. Fitbits are notorious for overestimating calorie burns.
You mean enter the exercise and the time in MFP? In the track exercise area?
How is that more accurate than something that knows my current weight and heartrate and steps? If Fitbits were consistently overestimating by a large amount, then where is the proof and why haven't the company adjusted their algorithms?
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You sound a lot like I did a couple of years ago. I struggled to lose weight for years. I tried diet pills, tracking calories, fasting, and excessive exercise. Nothing worked. Drs gave me terrible advice, I couldn't afford a trainer. I am still trying to lose the last 15 out of 100 pounds, and it's hard. I lose a little and gain a little over and over.
There is so much conflicting information out there, it's easy to get confused and frustrated.
I would honestly recommend trying noom. I did that for a couple months and it's a bit of a different approach, one that was very helpful for me. They talk about all the things in addition to calories that affect weight loss. They break down all the science, and give sources for it.
I am almost down to my goal weight, and I still struggle sometimes, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done, but at some point all the information finally states to make sense for me. Once I finally understood what I was doing, I was able to make a few small changes, mostly to my mindset, and the weight started slowly coming off.
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Surely you have access to Google, since you are using this site. Google some actual scientific studies by actual scientists, such as the ones on the accuracy of Fitbit, and the ones on body type. Fitness tracker users have been found to lose less weight than those who don’t use them, primarily because they feel entitled to the calories they “earn,” which don’t always resemble reality.norman_cates wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »There’s not such a thing as a metabolism enhancer so you can stop doing that part and take credit for losing weight the only way that ever works, eating less.
What? Of course there are metabolism increasers. Caffeine for one. Mild sure. There are others, all the way up to the medically prescribed or illegal like the amphetamine classes.
Please explain the increase in warmth and sweating I get with this.
Appetite suppressors are something I need to find good ones for. Because I genuinely seem to be able to get by on quite small amounts of food. Where as if I leave my body to it's normal hunger, I eat WAY more than I do with appetite suppressors.rheddmobile wrote: »And if your Fitbit is overestimating your calorie burns, stop syncing it and record your exercise manually. Fitbits are notorious for overestimating calorie burns.
You mean enter the exercise and the time in MFP? In the track exercise area?
How is that more accurate than something that knows my current weight and heartrate and steps? If Fitbits were consistently overestimating by a large amount, then where is the proof and why haven't the company adjusted their algorithms?
The way you figure out what to believe is by indexing your experiences against reality. You know for a certain fact that you were eating too much in the past, since you gained weight and then failed to lose it. You know that what you describe as “unhealthy” measures actually resulted in a moderate, healthy rate of loss. It may make you sad, but that’s you actually eating at a deficit. You don’t have to trust me or a trainer to believe that. You just have to accept reality.
Yes, enter the exercise manually. It’s not inherently any more accurate, but indexed against your known rate of loss, you should be able to work out what is accurate, for you, given time.
As for caffeine that is seriously majoring in the minors. Yes, it has a tiny effect on your metabolism, far less than your margin of error when measuring your food.
Hot pepper makes people sweat because of nervous system activation. It doesn’t cause them to drop pounds. Life is not that easy. If it were, do you think the world would be full of fat people?
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rheddmobile wrote: »Surely you have access to Google, since you are using this site. Google some actual scientific studies by actual scientists, such as the ones on the accuracy of Fitbit, and the ones on body type.
Saying "just google it" is the MOST USELESS advice anyone can give. You know as well as I do that the internet is huge. Random articles are random. Please explain how I know THEY know what they are talking about. Peer reviewed and repeated research is few and far between. And often behind paywalls.
Do you have links to actual scientific articles that YOU believe? If not, then why are you saying this?
How about something?rheddmobile wrote: »The way you figure out what to believe is by indexing your experiences against reality. You know for a certain fact that you were eating too much in the past, since you gained weight and then failed to lose it. You know that what you describe as “unhealthy” measures actually resulted in a moderate, healthy rate of loss. It may make you sad, but that’s you actually eating at a deficit. You don’t have to trust me or a trainer to believe that. You just have to accept reality.
Experience against reality doesn't make sense. You experience reality, they are much the same.
Actions against reality does make sense.
See I did (I believe) index my actions against reality 4 years ago. As far as I could tell I was acting the right way. Reality was "nope, no change".
As for the last 4 months, my actions have been to eat vastly less than usual.
I can't quote what my calorie intake was over that time because I wasn't trying to measure it. But I was (and sometimes am) only eating 1 maybe 2 moderate meals a day. In the 1000 calorie range. If that.
I was 102kg at the start 4 or so months ago. According to TDEE, 2240 calories per day. I was doing WAY WAY less than that. Anyone should look at that and say that's not right to be losing weight so slowly.
Look, I appreciate the thoughts. But you are just interested in telling me how I'm wrong, without any corroboration. Which makes you no better than 90% of anyone else on the internet.
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Yep...you're angry, and it will get you nowhere. Are you using a digital food scale? What "should" be working is not. Time to try something new. Weight loss is a lot of trail and error. Either you're open to advice or you're not. If you just want to say you're doing everything right, people that know something will not post. No one wants to waste their time. I encourage you to not give up, be open to ideas that you may not agree with, and see what happens. Good Luck.
PS: I took a look at your diary, and went back a couple of weeks. There's nothing there. How are you arriving at your calorie numbers?7 -
I'm having a look thanks. Maybe I will be able to to talk to a person.I would honestly recommend trying noom. I did that for a couple months and it's a bit of a different approach, one that was very helpful for me. They talk about all the things in addition to calories that affect weight loss. They break down all the science, and give sources for it.
But you really should have mentioned that its $180 for 4 months, after a 2 week trial...
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And yet, it is right. Because reality. The sooner you stop fighting it and start accepting it, the better. And yes, look for peer-reviewed studies, they aren’t all that rare and the abstracts are not behind paywalls.norman_cates wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Surely you have access to Google, since you are using this site. Google some actual scientific studies by actual scientists, such as the ones on the accuracy of Fitbit, and the ones on body type.
I was 102kg at the start 4 or so months ago. According to TDEE, 2240 calories per day. I was doing WAY WAY less than that. Anyone should look at that and say that's not right to be losing weight so slowly.
Or just keep doing what you’re doing now, 6 lbs a month will equal 72 lbs in a year. Changes are very good that you are eating far more than 1000 calories a day, but you don’t know, because you aren’t logging accurately.7 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Yep...you're angry, and it will get you nowhere. Are you using a digital food scale? What "should" be working is not. Time to try something new. Weight loss is a lot of trail and error. Either you're open to advice or you're not. If you just want to say you're doing everything right, people that know something will not post. No one wants to waste their time. I encourage you to not give up, be open to ideas that you may not agree with, and see what happens. Good Luck.
PS: I took a look at your diary, and went back a couple of weeks. There's nothing there. How are you arriving at your calorie numbers?
The logging I was doing was from years back.
Yes, I was using a digital scale. As far as I know, I was doing things right. The only thing I know to do better is to be ANALLY retentive and annoying. And be 110% accurate. But if it still fails then what? Seriously. I AM looking for new ideas. You say to try something new. That's EXACTLY what I'm asking for.
Something I can hold on to. So far, everyone is saying the same thing as was said to me years ago. Why should I believe it now, when it appears to have been wrong then? Again, something new would be great.
As for tracking, correct I have only just started getting back into it after some years gap after I rage quit. Or at least looking at it. But I have to establish it's worth logging 110% accurately. Will that prove anything? Or if I come up with data that contradicts your close held assumptions, will you just reject the data?
I was logging data from years ago but MFP have lost that data on the website. So I need to establish I can trust MFP with my data.
The data appears to be on my phone, but no amount of syncing will make it copy to the website. And MFP seem incapable of helping do that. So I can't trust MFP either.
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Go find a counselor.. until you learn to listen. NOBODY can help you .
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Hi Norman. I'm sorry you are feeling as you are. For too many years I have had weight issues. Doctors did those "answer all" thyroid tests, my issues came down in their view, I was eating way too much. They never did an antibody test making my issue autoimmunity. Cutting an all too long story short having reached a place with food intolerances and more being unable to go out in our garden because of the wofts of laundry residue from nextdoors washing line...................... i had to find another way to get my life back.
How many times was i told, your results are within Normal Range, what ever that is supposed to mean. According to Stop the Thyroid Madness, its a website and book, it means that years ago some hospital used the left over blood from patients tests and subjected these samples to standard thyroid testing unfortuantely the samples were devoid of key information, the accepted thyroid status of the donation let alone the status of other family members. So the outcome is........... the numbers they achieved are ranges they found. There was no indication of how the people were feeling at the different levels. The thing is, at the upper or lower levels a person could be low or high for them. All i was interested in was feeling well and right in myself. Also men do not have instances of issues at the same rate as women so men can be dismissed.
There is a tendency to see these numbers as the answer to each and every issue. The medical profession has forgotten the treatment of choise used to be by symptoms only and were descicated tissue rather than the sysnthetic versions which do not suit everyone and they folow a treatment practice which ignores the full aspect of the endocrine system. The Thyroid is the gland the pivot point which shows issues when other glands, adrenals et al, are having difficulities. western medicine often takes a simplistic aproach, the one size fits all which leaves many floundering.
General Western Medicine scoff at the functional aproach. These practitioners do the same blood tests, look at the readings they achieve and then make suggestions somethimes mendications to fill one's bodies personal gaps, true we often fall into similar groups to each other but none the less treatment is individual. I would suggest you find a functional practitioner because even if your issues are not "thyroid" related they could be endocrine related and their testing system will achieve a better understanding of your body for yourself.
Please read pages related to yourself on the Stop The Thyroid Madness website. There are many others, the list is long, look for information which is followed up with authority. One site gives 300 possible symptoms related to thyroid issues weight gain might be a common one but most of the less common ones are not atributed by modern western medicine.
Many on the now almost comatose, hyper and hypothyroid group believe in the modern western ways. On the front page of the group there is quite a bit of possibly information which could be helpful.
Take care, do what is right for you.1 -
Norman, you're a cantankerous one: I like it!
I give you credit for responding as it seems you genuinely try assessing the responses given to the paradigm you've set up for yourself.
You have every right to debunk our opinions on your perspectives regarding your health journey.
We aren't healthcare practitioners with access to your medical history nor can we stalk you 24/7/365 to verify your eating and exercise regimen. Furthermore, we're not researchers with peer-reviewed studies either.
We're a community with opinions that you can take or trash. Nothing you see here may ever fit your current paradigm.
And it doesn't even matter.
What matters to you is getting the results you seek.
Maybe it's Noom. Maybe it's a deep dive on Google Scholar (or asking a uni student in your family for their free online access to journals... usually from the campus library). Maybe it's reading everything on Suppversity (I think you'll love that blog): https://suppversity.blogspot.com
Maybe it's none of these and we don't have your answers.
Yet...
I hope you find those results in a healthy way, while being open to even more experimentation with what will consistently work for you now (as opposed to four or more years ago).3 -
norman_cates wrote: »How do you two do losing weight and maintaining? If it's pretty easy for you, then we don't need to hear from you, because you do not have the same problems. If it is difficult, then do you accurately keep logs any more? Or was doing it for 3 or 4 months sufficient to work out the general shape of it. And then regular measurements to keep track of measurements.
I am steeling myself to doing this again. To measuring myself at least once a week in as many relevant ways as possible. Arms, legs waist etc etc. WEight as a very broad measure.
First though I need MFP to recover my data from 4 years ago that they have lost. (Yes, I've contacted support.) So that I can have a baseline to start from. Not your problem, but I'm very angry about it.
I almost didn't see this part. Obviously, I can't speak for @rheddmobile. I'm not in maintenance. My goal is to lose more weight, lift more heavy stuff and end up with 24% body fat anywhere from 140-155 lbs or so.
Is it easy? No. If it was, I wouldn't be paying premium prices for two apps (MFP and 8Fit, although the latter was a mistake). Nor would I have tried Noom in autumn. Nor would my doctor have freaked me out a year ago about cholesterol and threaten to put me on meds for it unless I got healthier.
As of two weeks ago, she's still not ecstatic with my levels (even though they're much better) but she's giving me another 6 months to improve even more.
And so, Norman, I keep accurate logs and weigh in daily to be accountable...to myself. And so that I don't have to take a daily pill for the next 50+ years.
Do I slip up? Surely! Is the MFP database 100% accurate. Surely not. Are nutrition labels perfect? Let's not kid ourselves.
But we work with what we got!5 -
norman_cates wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Yep...you're angry, and it will get you nowhere. Are you using a digital food scale? What "should" be working is not. Time to try something new. Weight loss is a lot of trail and error. Either you're open to advice or you're not. If you just want to say you're doing everything right, people that know something will not post. No one wants to waste their time. I encourage you to not give up, be open to ideas that you may not agree with, and see what happens. Good Luck.
PS: I took a look at your diary, and went back a couple of weeks. There's nothing there. How are you arriving at your calorie numbers?
The logging I was doing was from years back.
Yes, I was using a digital scale. As far as I know, I was doing things right. The only thing I know to do better is to be ANALLY retentive and annoying. And be 110% accurate. But if it still fails then what? Seriously. I AM looking for new ideas. You say to try something new. That's EXACTLY what I'm asking for.
Something I can hold on to. So far, everyone is saying the same thing as was said to me years ago. Why should I believe it now, when it appears to have been wrong then? Again, something new would be great.
As for tracking, correct I have only just started getting back into it after some years gap after I rage quit. Or at least looking at it. But I have to establish it's worth logging 110% accurately. Will that prove anything? Or if I come up with data that contradicts your close held assumptions, will you just reject the data?
I was logging data from years ago but MFP have lost that data on the website. So I need to establish I can trust MFP with my data.
The data appears to be on my phone, but no amount of syncing will make it copy to the website. And MFP seem incapable of helping do that. So I can't trust MFP either.
Sorry, but you can't trust anyone. No one can guarantee anything. You need to believe before starting anything. What kind of world do you live in? You logged years ago and "think" you did it right. Either you did it right or you didn't. There's no middle ground. I log everyday (you can look up my diary--it's open). My goal is 1900 cal a day as a 65 yr old female, 5'11. I hit my goal fairly consistently and it's working for me. That's all I need to know. I like things simple--don't overthink everything, with "whatifs". As you're analyzing everything, why don't you just dust off that digital food scale and log accurately for a week? See what happens, maybe you'll be surprised. I hope so.4 -
hi,
first of all i share your same situation!!! My entire life I have been overweight and I've always lost and regained the same 60 pounds. And the medical community are always quick to blame EVERY.SINGLE.ISSUE. on the excess weight. So, I get it.
That said, I second everything maltedtea said, and, came here to add on, are you weighting your foods when you log? Because if you don't weight the food you might as well not log because you want have an accurate count.
you got this. and the fitfam is here to support and help.
good luckSpeaking of which, you said "I also have to accept the possibility that I was self sabotaging by eating non-logged food. Im sure I did a bit."
This is what I'd call couched language (I'm big on the words that people chose).
Either you did log or you didn't log. There's no possibility or grey area here, my friend. And you'd never know if you had 3k, 4k or 10k extra calories over or under for the week...unless you log. Every. Single. Morsel.
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Yes to everyone. at the time, I was logging using scales. I thought that was obvious. I am doing it again starting properly just today. With enforced isolation it seems a good opportunity.
I also know how and when to weight myself. I did do this for many months consistently as I said at the top.2 -
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