Insulin: An undeserved bad reputation James Krieger

mmapags
mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
There have been posts lately in these environs from those who have read Fung and are proponents of his ideas. The science shows that his whole understanding of the role of insulin is "flawed". And that is putting it mildly. Yet, some repeat it as some kind of settled science.

James Krieger wrote an article that is the subject title of this thread where he thoroughly debunks the insulin hypothesis. This was before Fung posted a single book.

Now, 10 years later, he wrote an update and the data proves him out even more than before. There are links to the original article.

https://weightology.net/insulin-still-an-undeserved-bad-reputation-after-10-years/?fbclid=IwAR0_qr9XmN4-EvuY6ZlhmXxdvaVMTw8vfImFa6FvZVNRvXQ3NHq5p3ELlEw

PS: If you don't know who Krieger is, look up his credentials. He may have forgotten more about physiology and nutrition than Fung ever knew.

Replies

  • watts6151
    watts6151 Posts: 905 Member
    I’m up on James work,
    Which is mimicked by
    Israetel, Hofmann, Campbell etc etc

    Bro science has been saying this for decades, especially when cutting as insulin is one of the most anabolic and more importantly the most anitcatabolic
    Hormone in a hypocaloric Diet

  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    edited May 2020
    KrissFlavored wrote: »
    "In another study by the same research group, varying carbohydrate intake from 10 to 80% carbohydrate or 5 to 30% sugar did not significantly impact food intake or body composition. Not only does this refute the idea of insulin being a bad guy, but it also refutes the idea that the type of carbs (sugar in this instance) will have some negative impact on body composition independent of calorie intake."

    "Despite higher insulin levels, the high carb group lost a bit more fat...a direct refutation of the insulin hypothesis."

    "Fat loss was slightly favored in the high carb arms by 16 grams per day, which is right in line with Kevin's two metabolic ward studies"

    "But...But...But...
    I can hear the low-carb-loving/keto-consuming/carnivore-crazy/Atkins-adoring/South Beach-salivating/Protein Power-pushing/Taubes-titillating/Ludwig-lusting/Fung-*Kitten* (not to be confused with fun *Kitten*)/zero-carb/negative-carb/bacon-loving/dripping-dipping zealots screaming right now..."

    Who knew sentences like these could bring so much joy to my life lol..

    Like.. you honestly have no idea how annoying it is at work to have every *kitten* person insist on low carb being the gateway to weight loss

    Or maybe you do lol..

    Oh, I do! lol. The amazing thing about Krieger's original opinion on this is that he thought there had to be some metabolic advantage to keto. So, he set out to prove it and couldn't! It's just amazing to me how many people will believe click bait BS from the Fungs and Bergs of the world, who aren't really qualified to speak with authority on nutrition, but won't believe the kind of evidence based data in Krieger's work.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    edited May 2020
    The title is unfortunate. I thought you were saying Krieger had an undeserved bad rep.


    I am in agreement with you, mmapags.

    I do (or did, not so much any more) have a problem quitting sweets once I start, but I think that may be more to do with the feel-good hormones, not insulin. Different topic altogether, but could partially explain why people do well on keto and atkins since they remove the compulsivity of sugar/excessive grain eating (for a lot of us.)
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    The title is unfortunate. I thought you were saying Krieger had an undeserved bad rep.


    I am in agreement with you, mmapags.

    I do (or did, not so much any more) have a problem quitting sweets once I start, but I think that may be more to do with the feel-good hormones, not insulin. Different topic altogether.

    Ah! Yes, rereading it, I wish I had said "from James Krieger" or "by James Krieger".
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Bump for those that may have missed it.
  • nooshi713
    nooshi713 Posts: 4,877 Member
    KrissFlavored wrote: »
    "In another study by the same research group, varying carbohydrate intake from 10 to 80% carbohydrate or 5 to 30% sugar did not significantly impact food intake or body composition. Not only does this refute the idea of insulin being a bad guy, but it also refutes the idea that the type of carbs (sugar in this instance) will have some negative impact on body composition independent of calorie intake."

    "Despite higher insulin levels, the high carb group lost a bit more fat...a direct refutation of the insulin hypothesis."

    "Fat loss was slightly favored in the high carb arms by 16 grams per day, which is right in line with Kevin's two metabolic ward studies"

    "But...But...But...
    I can hear the low-carb-loving/keto-consuming/carnivore-crazy/Atkins-adoring/South Beach-salivating/Protein Power-pushing/Taubes-titillating/Ludwig-lusting/Fung-*Kitten* (not to be confused with fun *Kitten*)/zero-carb/negative-carb/bacon-loving/dripping-dipping zealots screaming right now..."

    Who knew sentences like these could bring so much joy to my life lol..

    Like.. you honestly have no idea how annoying it is at work to have every *kitten* person insist on low carb being the gateway to weight loss

    Or maybe you do lol..

    I 100% agree. Carbs have been vilified for so long. I have not read Fung but I work in the medical field and have known for years that those theories were wrong. When I was younger I tried all of the low carb diets and felt crappy on all of them.
  • earlnabby
    earlnabby Posts: 8,171 Member
    As a T2Dm, the problem is NOT insulin, but having too much glucose in the bloodstream. Insulin is produced by the pancreas in order to turn that glucose into energy, or store it for future use. If the pancreas does not produce insulin, one much inject it. If the body is resistant to insulin, one must adjust food intake in order to balance everything. Either way, excess glucose is what causes issues
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    KrissFlavored wrote: »
    "In another study by the same research group, varying carbohydrate intake from 10 to 80% carbohydrate or 5 to 30% sugar did not significantly impact food intake or body composition. Not only does this refute the idea of insulin being a bad guy, but it also refutes the idea that the type of carbs (sugar in this instance) will have some negative impact on body composition independent of calorie intake."

    "Despite higher insulin levels, the high carb group lost a bit more fat...a direct refutation of the insulin hypothesis."

    "Fat loss was slightly favored in the high carb arms by 16 grams per day, which is right in line with Kevin's two metabolic ward studies"

    "But...But...But...
    I can hear the low-carb-loving/keto-consuming/carnivore-crazy/Atkins-adoring/South Beach-salivating/Protein Power-pushing/Taubes-titillating/Ludwig-lusting/Fung-*Kitten* (not to be confused with fun *Kitten*)/zero-carb/negative-carb/bacon-loving/dripping-dipping zealots screaming right now..."

    Who knew sentences like these could bring so much joy to my life lol..

    Like.. you honestly have no idea how annoying it is at work to have every *kitten* person insist on low carb being the gateway to weight loss

    Or maybe you do lol..

    I 100% agree. Carbs have been vilified for so long. I have not read Fung but I work in the medical field and have known for years that those theories were wrong. When I was younger I tried all of the low carb diets and felt crappy on all of them.

    What I find sad is that there are those in the medical community who buy into this, too. The surgeon that removed my best friend's gallbladder, for instance. Of course it was not in his field of expertise at all, which did make him susceptible I suppose, but it was rather irritating since I knew that there would be people who would see that he was a doctor and take what he had to say as gospel without realizing that he was over-reaching his field of expertise.
    earlnabby wrote: »
    As a T2Dm, the problem is NOT insulin, but having too much glucose in the bloodstream. Insulin is produced by the pancreas in order to turn that glucose into energy, or store it for future use. If the pancreas does not produce insulin, one much inject it. If the body is resistant to insulin, one must adjust food intake in order to balance everything. Either way, excess glucose is what causes issues

    And even then, the body still needs glucose - its the excess that is the problem. Which I can't get my best friend to understand. She was diagnosed with fatty liver and now declares that all sugar is "poison" to her. *sigh* Of course, she doesn't trust any mainline studies and only trusts these obscure youtube practitioners, and because of her n=1 experience there is no chance of convincing her with sound reason.
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    The title is unfortunate. I thought you were saying Krieger had an undeserved bad rep.


    I am in agreement with you, mmapags.

    I do (or did, not so much any more) have a problem quitting sweets once I start, but I think that may be more to do with the feel-good hormones, not insulin. Different topic altogether, but could partially explain why people do well on keto and atkins since they remove the compulsivity of sugar/excessive grain eating (for a lot of us.)

    I agree with most of this, but I think the real boon for keto is the reduction of the archetype foods we are evolved to seek. So, you get to eat fat. Well, fat by itself can be boring after a while. Now take that fat and mix it with sugar and bam! Hyper consumption. I have had the pleasure of actually having James Krieger as my coach. Man is a data analyzing machine and one generally nice individual. If you are a research nerd like me, I would join the weightology.net breakdown group. (This is not an attempt to sell anything, just a thought for folks who live data and have it made far more digestible. I receive no proceeds from the website.) Just had to get that out of the way so MFP doesn't think I am a salesman.

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