TDEE data and questions based on calculations

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richiechowns
richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
in Goal: Maintaining Weight
Hi All,

Here is a screenshot of 9 weeks of MFP analysis and I'd like to get some thoughts from people on where I should consider setting my maintenance cals or TDEE.

When I initially started on MFP again, I set my goals at weight loss to lose around 4kg, probably a bit too aggressively and so over time I have change my goal to trying to recomp. I understand that with this I may need some more data at recomp levels to see trends, but on the NEAT MFP model I was eating back planned exercise cals, in the most part ignoring the Garmin adjustments for step cals I see on a daily basis (these seem to fluctuate a fair bit!)

Stats today:
Weight: 68.4kg
Height: 71"
BF% =15% (measured with calipers)
Exercise is as standard T25, 25 minutes per day x 5 days a week, with a double on Fri. Now on Gamma phase (more weights).

The TDEE using scooby and a few other websites/tools came out at 2559 average.

I've followed the advice on page 1 of this; https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets#latest

My questions around the calculation on this is that, weight loss is not linear, so how can you set the TDEE when this is fluctuating so much? One week I've lost 1.43lbs, another zero. If I base it on this, my TDEE is 2800 but that is with such a fluctuation each week with a differing goal?

As you will see, in weeks 7 & 8 I was pretty much hitting maintenance and not losing or gaining weight, this week however, when I feel I've actually done less walking and eaten more cals (18k+), I've lost 1.65lbs!

@PAV8888 @heybales this follows on from the zombie thread but with data this time..

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Replies

  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    "My questions around the calculation on this is that, weight loss is not linear, so how can you set the TDEE when this is fluctuating so much?"

    Remember your actual TDEE does vary - it really should be called average TDEE.

    And if you don't average it over a long enough period you will constantly be chasing and reacting to normal fluctuations that you should be ignoring.
    That your weight dropped 1.65 pounds due to one of those fluctuations is of no importance whatsoever and should be ignored.
    (BTW - Trying to measure weight to 0.05 of a pound for a number that is constantly in flux is a concern - I can lose that with a close shave!)

    Pick a number based on your own data to exclude logging accuracy issues, stick to that number for at least a month. If your up and down fluctuations cancel each other out then you have your average TDEE pretty well nailed down. And being nailed down doesn't mean precisely the same number on your scales- it's why people need a weight range.

    How wide is your acceptable range that means you DON'T react to your scale weight by changing your intake?

    Also "nailed down" only means until your circumstances change!
    (My TDEE is far higher in good weather. Most people's TDEE has been affected by lockdown etc. etc.)

    The initial reaction to the scales was more based on a goal change, rapid weight loss, probably with little thought initially was the goal, but the more I've learnt on here, the more I think maintenance and training well is the way and with a slight surplus.

    I've weighed in once a week at the same time, so appreciate the tiny 0.05 difference is something that would change quite quickly, so I am ignoring that as such, I'm thinking 2700 cals for a month could be the way. The only struggle is eating that fairly clean, I'm struggling to fit in all the food 😁. I always tend to clear fat targets and protein as I've found does not have to sit at 40% especially considering that you only use 35g per meal really.

    I should say this work running challenge starts next week, so I'll be needing another 500 or so a day for 4 weeks to cope with that, regretting signing up for it now but it's going to be for charity.
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    Re protein - "I've found does not have to sit at 40% especially considering that you only use 35g per meal really."

    That's not actually true but a common misunderstanding conflating rate of absorption with not being able to use larger doses.
    Your body will react to larger doses by slowing your digestion, the surplus over your hourly rate of absorption simply gets used later, it doesn't go to waste. That's another area (protein timing) you could ease up on the micro management IMHO.

    I don't think nailing down a theoretical and temporary TDEE should influence taking on an exercise challenge, that's making it far too important. For peace of mind maintenance really should be less of a straight jacket.

    Didn't see your answer to previous question - what is your acceptable maintenance range of weight?

    Sorry I missed that question.

    It is a tricky one at this stage, simply because being a long distance runner for so long, I didn't fluctuate a great deal (or weigh myself for that matter) but when I hits upward of 163lb (you can imagine it was mostly through not exercising at all and eating a marathon runners diet), I felt I needed to get down to my racing weight from a time I'd weighed myself about 2 years earlier (149lb)!

    In hindsight, it is more that I'd like to build a bit of a physique but not in the sense of being big/bulky - I think looking at where I'm at now, ironically, 163ish feels about right, but with lower BF and more lean muscle. I wanted to try recomp to see what I'd look like at a lower BF% as is, so 15% now, maybe 12% might be alright (just a bit whimpy!).

    I understand from Scooby that, unless I'm going really heavy, that equates to about 10lb for a year muscle build? So at present I'm 150.8lb based on a 12.2lb weight loss.

    Also apologies for switching units, I tend to do that when I'm reading different posts from kg's to lbs.

    @PAV8888 I'll try to get onto that sheet post work, thanks.
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    Re protein - "I've found does not have to sit at 40% especially considering that you only use 35g per meal really."

    That's not actually true but a common misunderstanding conflating rate of absorption with not being able to use larger doses.
    Your body will react to larger doses by slowing your digestion, the surplus over your hourly rate of absorption simply gets used later, it doesn't go to waste. That's another area (protein timing) you could ease up on the micro management IMHO.

    I don't think nailing down a theoretical and temporary TDEE should influence taking on an exercise challenge, that's making it far too important. For peace of mind maintenance really should be less of a straight jacket.

    Didn't see your answer to previous question - what is your acceptable maintenance range of weight?

    One other thing I didn't mention from your post was the protein aspect. Is optimal 0.8g x per lb LBM, so taking off the weight that is not LBM? If I'm drinking shakes to get additional protein, well it is fine but I do wonder if I'm going too heavy on it and therefore wasting money trying to hit say 25% each day. How it can be 40%, I just don't know, although I guess people are not in the same situation as me being vegan, but tempeh is similar to some meats in protein qty.

    I'm not really timing it, I just eat 3 meals a day with snacks in between.

  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    richiechowns wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    Re protein - "I've found does not have to sit at 40% especially considering that you only use 35g per meal really."

    That's not actually true but a common misunderstanding conflating rate of absorption with not being able to use larger doses.
    Your body will react to larger doses by slowing your digestion, the surplus over your hourly rate of absorption simply gets used later, it doesn't go to waste. That's another area (protein timing) you could ease up on the micro management IMHO.

    I don't think nailing down a theoretical and temporary TDEE should influence taking on an exercise challenge, that's making it far too important. For peace of mind maintenance really should be less of a straight jacket.

    Didn't see your answer to previous question - what is your acceptable maintenance range of weight?

    One other thing I didn't mention from your post was the protein aspect. Is optimal 0.8g x per lb LBM, so taking off the weight that is not LBM? If I'm drinking shakes to get additional protein, well it is fine but I do wonder if I'm going too heavy on it and therefore wasting money trying to hit say 25% each day. How it can be 40%, I just don't know, although I guess people are not in the same situation as me being vegan, but tempeh is similar to some meats in protein qty.

    I'm not really timing it, I just eat 3 meals a day with snacks in between.

    Really protein being optimal is again a range not a number. As you are pretty lean then I'd personally aim for 1lb per lb of LBM but for me that level doesn't cause me to have to eat in a special or restrictive way.
    But as you aren't in a deficit any more then 0.8 per lb of LBM is probably in the Ok range - there's no real reason someone at maintenance, at a good weight and exercising should fear muscle loss.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    I think Pav8888's comment about the figures to track is very useful. Really the only ones for the math.

    If you recognize the Garmin exercise calories won't always be true and read too much in to them, you could split that out just to have history on it.

    Then as sijomial mentions, as seasons and activity levels change, or workouts, you might have an idea of changing needs before you make it too far.

    I liked using 6 wk rolling avg of average weeks. Like not counting a week of being sick, or short-notice drop the workouts busy week, just the normal weeks.
    Also meant if training was ramping up for something, I'd use exercise as extra add on for days it counted - so a combo TDEE/NEAT method.

    Using that method there was a month prior to a race where my expected weight loss to the numbers was just 3% off very good food logging (normally it's not that great).
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    richiechowns wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    Re protein - "I've found does not have to sit at 40% especially considering that you only use 35g per meal really."

    That's not actually true but a common misunderstanding conflating rate of absorption with not being able to use larger doses.
    Your body will react to larger doses by slowing your digestion, the surplus over your hourly rate of absorption simply gets used later, it doesn't go to waste. That's another area (protein timing) you could ease up on the micro management IMHO.

    I don't think nailing down a theoretical and temporary TDEE should influence taking on an exercise challenge, that's making it far too important. For peace of mind maintenance really should be less of a straight jacket.

    Didn't see your answer to previous question - what is your acceptable maintenance range of weight?

    One other thing I didn't mention from your post was the protein aspect. Is optimal 0.8g x per lb LBM, so taking off the weight that is not LBM? If I'm drinking shakes to get additional protein, well it is fine but I do wonder if I'm going too heavy on it and therefore wasting money trying to hit say 25% each day. How it can be 40%, I just don't know, although I guess people are not in the same situation as me being vegan, but tempeh is similar to some meats in protein qty.

    I'm not really timing it, I just eat 3 meals a day with snacks in between.

    Really protein being optimal is again a range not a number. As you are pretty lean then I'd personally aim for 1lb per lb of LBM but for me that level doesn't cause me to have to eat in a special or restrictive way.
    But as you aren't in a deficit any more then 0.8 per lb of LBM is probably in the Ok range - there's no real reason someone at maintenance, at a good weight and exercising should fear muscle loss.

    Great so at 150.8lbs I'd need roughly 128g protein at 1g per lb, I'm busting that anyway, so I'm not concerned.

    Things like Men's Health in the UK, their articles where they suggest 40% really don't help, I think going along the way I am is working then, I'll give it more time and just track things along for the interest.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    On a 4,000 calorie day 40% protein would be 400g - hmmm, sounds challenging!
    :neutral:
  • PhoenixRising1974pr
    PhoenixRising1974pr Posts: 11 Member
    edited June 2020
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    That's why I use weight trend instead of weight for calculations.

    You don't have enough or clean enough data I think; but I will look at it but closely during your overnight in my afternoon.

    Consistency helps.

    Why don't you forget the specific exercises and adjustments and just plot three things:

    Garmin total calories expended for time period; total calories logged as eaten; weight trend change

    Note that in addition to above an accurate weight trend probably requires daily weigh ins or a total of many more.

    Anyway if all we have is 9 weigh ins that's what we have

    You could add them in this spreadsheet

    (Just use weekly figures in place of daily, the averages should still come out the same and establish a (probably changing) "accuracy" level for your Garmin based on your logging)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VDmqNpLPu7sbQSochUJNXdp2F7AN15AGgkvS3zLw1GU/edit?usp=drivesdk

    @PAV888 OK... How do you calculate the calories out on your spreadsheet using MFP, TrendWeight.com, etc?
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,658 Member
    edited June 2020
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    Spreadsheet I linked to above:

    -- everyone should be able to use "File" / Make a Copy" and save a copy of the spreadsheet under their own account without needing to ask further permissions. We would not want to be adding our personal data into the main copy that already comes with some example data courtesy of a marathon running MFP friend--hi JL!.

    --MFP can be used to calculate calories in. At the bottom of the web page food log you can click on View Full Report (Printable) and see one to two months at once (gone are the days when you could CONVENIENTLY see your complete data-set in one report!)

    --I am assuming a TDEE estimation device is in use!
    Fitbit, Garmin, Polar, Samsung or Apple Watch, or even MFP plus manually logged exercises -- whatever YOU use to estimate calories out FOR THE DAY regardless of source.

    That would be what will get validated against your actual weight change.

    --weight change was originally ONLY going to be weight trend (from trendweight in my case); but I also added scale weight because, let's face it, we all sneak a peak at scale weight even when we know we shouldn't!
    The spreadsheet is the off-shoot of me trying for an easy way to get a handle of how logging and estimation errors could be easily lumped together and conceptualized into a single "FITBIT TDEE error".

    Basically, given the way I log and eat and move/exercise and regardless of where the error really is coming from, when my Fitbit says I've spent 3000 Calories.... if I have a 3.33% of TDEE error, I know I can, on average, eat 2900 of them to maintain.

    How consistent has that been for me? Any 60+ days time period over the past 5+ years has not been outside of a range of -1% to +5% TDEE error. I usually eye ball 3% and it seems to work fine for me as a pretty good "rough" estimate of where my maintenance calories for today would be!

    --the number will vary over time with changing modes of exercise and eating.

    --in Richie's case, above, the biggest issue is the in-frequent weigh ins. I haven't really though of it much; but 9 weekly weigh ins are not a lot of data points and they can hide a lot of ups and downs depending on whether the day chosen for the weigh in was a high or low day.

    --but it doesn't have to be perfect and over time you can get more and more precise... if you feel like doing so.

    Note: all the spreadsheet does is averages. I think I use "average" as opposed to considering the actual number of days in any of the calculations, so if you substitute a week's worth of data for a day it should still work. HOWEVER, if it is giving you weird numbers you could just divide the week by 7 (average it yourself) and enter 7 days in a row for your week's results.

    The one thing I never could figure out for "data entry validation" is that the bottom entry (most recent entry) should not contain calories for the day, just your "morning" weigh in and weight trend.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,658 Member
    edited June 2020
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    @richiechowns

    So after going on about my spreadsheet, you've essentially ALREADY done everything you need to do in terms of actionable intelligence :smiley:

    This is how I would view the data you included in your post above

    --I am assuming your scale is set to kg, so I used kg; just change the number to 3500 and the units to lbs to calculate using lbs;
    --since your weight can go up or down, I've used negative numbers for weight loss, whereas positive would signal weight increase
    --you have to enter your garmin numbers
    --the totals and averages will require manual selection of the cells as you enter more data
    --I would consider using weight trend data in addition to scale change data and see which one would work out better long term

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6cZxnFQQl7TVGEQnVqC4_CemmLe_OC-clvG2m05s4/edit?usp=sharing

    again you should be able to copy to your own account and go to town :smiley:
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    @richiechowns

    So after going on about my spreadsheet, you've essentially ALREADY done everything you need to do in terms of actionable intelligence :smiley:

    This is how I would view the data you included in your post above

    --I am assuming your scale is set to kg, so I used kg; just change the number to 3500 and the units to lbs to calculate using lbs;
    --since your weight can go up or down, I've used negative numbers for weight loss, whereas positive would signal weight increase
    --you have to enter your garmin numbers
    --the totals and averages will require manual selection of the cells as you enter more data
    --I would consider using weight trend data in addition to scale change data and see which one would work out better long term

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6cZxnFQQl7TVGEQnVqC4_CemmLe_OC-clvG2m05s4/edit?usp=sharing

    again you should be able to copy to your own account and go to town :smiley:

    @PAV8888 of course I can make a copy, what a doughnut!!

    I'll do that now and have a play during a break today :)
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    @richiechowns

    So after going on about my spreadsheet, you've essentially ALREADY done everything you need to do in terms of actionable intelligence :smiley:

    This is how I would view the data you included in your post above

    --I am assuming your scale is set to kg, so I used kg; just change the number to 3500 and the units to lbs to calculate using lbs;
    --since your weight can go up or down, I've used negative numbers for weight loss, whereas positive would signal weight increase
    --you have to enter your garmin numbers
    --the totals and averages will require manual selection of the cells as you enter more data
    --I would consider using weight trend data in addition to scale change data and see which one would work out better long term

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6cZxnFQQl7TVGEQnVqC4_CemmLe_OC-clvG2m05s4/edit?usp=sharing

    again you should be able to copy to your own account and go to town :smiley:

    I found a window to go through Garmin, I've used the following 'Adjusted Goal' as the TDEE marker (example attached).

    Attached is a snip from the Pav's spreadsheet with the Garmin data filled in....albeit without loads of daily weigh in data.


  • PhoenixRising1974pr
    PhoenixRising1974pr Posts: 11 Member
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    @PAV888 OK... How do you calculate the calories out on your spreadsheet for TDEE if we don't have a device?
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,658 Member
    edited June 2020
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    richiechowns wrote: »
    Attached is a snip from the Pav's spreadsheet with the Garmin data filled in....albeit without loads of daily weigh in data.

    Updated "your" garmin "weekly" spreadsheet with the data you indicated and minor formatting.

    My only concern with the adjusted goal figure you seem to be using is that it would ONLY equal your TDEE if you've told Garmin your intention is to maintain your weight. Otherwise I would expect the number to have a daily deficit or surplus baked into it.

    Your app SHOULD have some spot where you can get a report of Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE), which is the correct figure we're after EVERY time :smile:

    if the figures you're using are, indeed, your TDEE, your weight changes are extremely close to what you would expect based on what you've logged, and I would think that this past week will balance out / smooth out when blended in with other data a week or two from today.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,658 Member
    edited June 2020
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    PhoenixRising1974pr wrote: »
    @PAV888 OK... How do you calculate the calories out on your spreadsheet for TDEE if we don't have a device?

    If you don't have a device your "LOGGED TDEE" would be your MFP maintenance level calories for the day plus any exercise calories that you have logged in MFP.

    To find this, while you're logged into MFP go to: https://www.myfitnesspal.com/exercise/diary/ and click on the little (i) (or find a line that says: MyFitnessPal Calories Burned)

    Alternatively, the number would be "your daily goal" PLUS the deficit you have selected*

    * if your daily goal is 1200 (f) or 1500 (m), your expected deficit may be smaller than your selected deficit because you're hitting MFP's caloric floor. In this case you would have to locate and add your EXPECTED as opposed to your SELECTED deficit.

    The idea behind all this is to figure out how well your total calories in / total calories out (as logged) are corresponding to your weight change as evidenced by your weight trend and / or scale.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,658 Member
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    Another way of viewing all this is @heybales' "Just my TDEE and Deficit Please" spreadsheet.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F3Ba1vGwrSudorS1fF4B0tylxFYZQUl2ziRigb_VfhI/edit#gid=0

    At the bottom he uses your "calories eaten" plus your actual weight change (I suggest using your weight trend change) to come up with what I like to call your "evidence based" TDEE.

    Which is all you would need to eat to maintain regardless of what MFP or a device claim you would.

    My whole thing above is just to compare "logged" TDEE (either from a device or from MFP without the beneift of a correction by a device) to the underlying "evidence based" TDEE so that I can make my eating decisions based on my ever-changing (based on activity) daily goals.

    My brain likes to "off-load" calories out to a device. That's because I believe that an unthinking device is more likely to be a consistent estimator as compared to myself given I that I am more likely to be influenced by my perception of how easy or difficult my activities FELT.

    But it no device exists then the number is just the Total Daily Energy Expenditure (Calories OUT) that MFP recorded for the day. Initial NEAT estimate plus any exercise calories recorded.
  • richiechowns
    richiechowns Posts: 155 Member
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    richiechowns wrote: »
    Attached is a snip from the Pav's spreadsheet with the Garmin data filled in....albeit without loads of daily weigh in data.

    Updated "your" garmin "weekly" spreadsheet with the data you indicated and minor formatting.

    My only concern with the adjusted goal figure you seem to be using is that it would ONLY equal your TDEE if you've told Garmin your intention is to maintain your weight. Otherwise I would expect the number to have a daily deficit or surplus baked into it.

    Your app SHOULD have some spot where you can get a report of Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE), which is the correct figure we're after EVERY time :smile:

    if the figures you're using are, indeed, your TDEE, your weight changes are extremely close to what you would expect based on what you've logged, and I would think that this past week will balance out / smooth out when blended in with other data a week or two from today.

    Hi @PAV8888 I'll have a look around Garmin today/tomorrow but I'm not sure there is anywhere in Garmin you tell it your intentions with regards to weight and maintenance. My assumption is the adjusted goal is taking into account your actual daily activity. For example I walked 4 miles plus yesterday but didn't record it was an activity and my adjusted goal was way over 3k. I'll see it I can find a TDEE report as well. Thanks

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