Myths or Realities
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naguilar1021
Posts: 12 Member
I've been on my journey now for almost 3 months now. Went from 200lbs to 183lbs, dropped a significant amount of bodyfat from 32% to about 22%. Gained a nice amount of muscle along the way as well. Now my question, I've been super consistent with my diet, except on fathers day, low-carbish high protein and fats, do you guys believe in "refeed"days? Do you guys believe that our metabolisms can slow down after a while being in a consistent low carb low calorie diet? Are cheat meals necessary to restart metabolism? Myths or Realities?
2
Replies
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I believe that your body and your hormones need a break to reset after a few months of eating in a deficit. I'd be inclined to change your Guided Setup to 'Maintain current weight' and eat at maintenance for a week or even two weeks. Perhaos do that at the three months stage or when you reach 180lbs. Then, when you resume, consider dropping your goal a little ie if you're currently set to lose 2lb a week, reduce that to 1.5lb or even 1lb a week, depending on how much you still want to lose.6
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Strudders67 wrote: »I believe that your body and your hormones need a break to reset after a few months of eating in a deficit. I'd be inclined to change your Guided Setup to 'Maintain current weight' and eat at maintenance for a week or even two weeks. Perhaos do that at the three months stage or when you reach 180lbs. Then, when you resume, consider dropping your goal a little ie if you're currently set to lose 2lb a week, reduce that to 1.5lb or even 1lb a week, depending on how much you still want to lose.
That's an awesome idea. Definitely will try that.0 -
Biologically, it's pretty much a myth. Psychologically, however, it can really work. Over the long haul, calories consumed versus calories burned determines weight loss. We can only do a fairly good estimates for both those numbers.
Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect on our weight loss journeys!10 -
You might be interested in reading this thread:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks/p15 -
Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.6 -
Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.222741 -
psychod787 wrote: »Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.22274
I haven't see the studies, but i know Lyle McDonald references them in UD2.0 and other books. Not sure if Dr. Norton has any information on that since he is one of the people who has popularized it.
I find value in refeeds but generally in those who are lean. Diet breaks also tend to be valuable for those who have been dieting for extended periods of time.
What I can't explain is i have seen some people increase calories substantially (500-1000 calories) and still not gain weight.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.22274
I haven't see the studies, but i know Lyle McDonald references them in UD2.0 and other books. Not sure if Dr. Norton has any information on that since he is one of the people who has popularized it.
I find value in refeeds but generally in those who are lean. Diet breaks also tend to be valuable for those who have been dieting for extended periods of time.
What I can't explain is i have seen some people increase calories substantially (500-1000 calories) and still not gain weight.
I think you might be referring to the MATADOR study from 2018. Intermittent vs continuous energy restriction. Yes, the intermittent group showed less AT. Though i and others have a few issues with the study. First, AT seems to be very individual. I can post several studies that show a wide range of change between individuals. Second, not a large enough sample size. That actually can compound the 1st issue. The third is, they never tried to flesh out the reasons for the reported changes. Whether it was leptin and ghrelin is not researched. Could there be a mechanism, maybe, but until the study is repeated with a larger sample size, I remain on the bench. I do think a diet break could help. It may increase tdee by increasing NEAT or a temp bump in rmr. Though, as soon as someone goes back into a deficit, leptin will correspondingly drop. It could be a welcome break for some people with large amounts to lose. Though the research suggest that quick initial weight loss vs slower in obese does not make regain more likely. There was also a meta done recently that showed a reduced rmr was not a hindrance to weight loss maintenance. Will post upon request as always.0 -
I don’t know if it’s a fact cheat meals are necessary to restart metabolism, but I know they are absolutely necessary
To restart my good mood and happy smile!10 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.22274
I haven't see the studies, but i know Lyle McDonald references them in UD2.0 and other books. Not sure if Dr. Norton has any information on that since he is one of the people who has popularized it.
I find value in refeeds but generally in those who are lean. Diet breaks also tend to be valuable for those who have been dieting for extended periods of time.
What I can't explain is i have seen some people increase calories substantially (500-1000 calories) and still not gain weight.
I think you might be referring to the MATADOR study from 2018. Intermittent vs continuous energy restriction. Yes, the intermittent group showed less AT. Though i and others have a few issues with the study. First, AT seems to be very individual. I can post several studies that show a wide range of change between individuals. Second, not a large enough sample size. That actually can compound the 1st issue. The third is, they never tried to flesh out the reasons for the reported changes. Whether it was leptin and ghrelin is not researched. Could there be a mechanism, maybe, but until the study is repeated with a larger sample size, I remain on the bench. I do think a diet break could help. It may increase tdee by increasing NEAT or a temp bump in rmr. Though, as soon as someone goes back into a deficit, leptin will correspondingly drop. It could be a welcome break for some people with large amounts to lose. Though the research suggest that quick initial weight loss vs slower in obese does not make regain more likely. There was also a meta done recently that showed a reduced rmr was not a hindrance to weight loss maintenance. Will post upon request as always.
Sorry, i should have expanded. Lyle's UD2.0 book came out considerably early than the MATADOR study. In the book it discusses the relationships of ghrelin and leptin. When dieting, leptin decreases (in leaner individuals) and ghrelin increases. UD2.0 is to help leaner people get more lean. Its essentially a 5 day lower calorie keto diet with glycogen depletion workouts, with 40 hours of ultra high carb, low fat refeed; the refeed days will vary based on category. I believe there has been a good amount of leptin studies done during the 90s. He does note that Leptin, as you noted, drops shortly after you get back in the deficit.
I know Menno Henselmenn has done some interesting work on AT but i believe it closely aligns to what you are saying. Most of the effects are going to be in leaner individuals, but the individual response can vastly differ. In Mennos case, he maintains at 3000 calories (roughly) but in order to lose 1 lb a week, requires him to cut calories to 1800. Is that all AT? Unlikely, but maybe part of that and transient reductions in NEAT from less food.1 -
psychod787 wrote: »Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.22274
Links!
About ghrelin: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925100/
About metabolic adaptation: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2016/11/are-super-obese-ones-who-are.html?m=1#more
More detailed paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oby.22373
Also worth noting from the bottom of the first link you posted:
"No consistent evidence of a disproportionately low resting energy expenditure in long-term successful weight-loss maintainers"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30321282/
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Assuming a person is not eating at a level so low that their body is not getting enough nutrition for an extended period of time: I think the 'need' for a break is mental and will depend on the person.1
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I think that re-feeding has its place. I also think that it becomes more necessary as we become leaner.
More reasonable deficits may be more relevant sooner than that.
While I agree with my smarter, stronger, and taller twin that many studies do not show a difference between faster and slower initial loss from obese, it is my non study based belief that this result is confounded by how the definitions of success were selected and the relatively low overall success rate. Also by length of time to study end, and by the fact that studies offer some advantages in terms of resources offered to participants (follow ups, dietitians, and similar) that are not available in real life to MFP uses.
My contention remains that for most of us who start obese we need to work through a lot of things mentally and physically and these changes require time to happen and to embed enough for us to survive the first few years post diet.7 -
So I just spoke to a local nutritionist and he claims that metabolic adaptation definitely happens and he suggests instead of having a "cheat meal" or anything related, if you are in a calorie deficit (which I am) he suggests eating at maintenance level 1-3 weeks, then back to a deficit. That would give my body/metabolism the necessary time to reset and back working. Thought I share with you guys...I know some of you guys had suggested that...awesome guys, thanks!!!3
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RP’s take
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naguilar1021 wrote: »So I just spoke to a local nutritionist and he claims that metabolic adaptation definitely happens and he suggests instead of having a "cheat meal" or anything related, if you are in a calorie deficit (which I am) he suggests eating at maintenance level 1-3 weeks, then back to a deficit. That would give my body/metabolism the necessary time to reset and back working. Thought I share with you guys...I know some of you guys had suggested that...awesome guys, thanks!!!
A cheat meal would not provide enough to have an impact on the metabolism. In a general sense it would be 2 days from what i have seen. It would be likely beneficial for your mental health. And i am all for including free meals as part of a diet plan.2 -
naguilar1021 wrote: »So I just spoke to a local nutritionist and he claims that metabolic adaptation definitely happens and he suggests instead of having a "cheat meal" or anything related, if you are in a calorie deficit (which I am) he suggests eating at maintenance level 1-3 weeks, then back to a deficit. That would give my body/metabolism the necessary time to reset and back working. Thought I share with you guys...I know some of you guys had suggested that...awesome guys, thanks!!!
So they're suggesting a diet break. Please note that some research suggests that a couple of days of high carbs, relatively low fat at maintenance (re-feed) may offer some uptick on hormones but, again, as mentioned, this becomes more important as you get leaner. And mental de-stress counts too!
The re-feeds and diet break thread above has all the science and non science and a few cat gifs too. Most of the relevant info is covered on the first page.2 -
My contention remains that for most of us who start obese we need to work through a lot of things mentally and physically and these changes require time to happen and to embed enough for us to survive the first few years post diet.
It took me a while to come to the conclusion that this is why I lost 60 pounds in 6 months fairly easily, then gained it back in the next couple of years.
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psychod787 wrote: »Nope, your metabolism won't slow, except as part of the natural slowing from losing weight that can't and shouldn't be reversed.
That said, it seems refeed days can help reset your ghrelin/leptin levels, which are the hormones controlling appetite and satiety and which get reduced during dieting. So there is some advantage to it.
Could you please post the research study on this? I would love to read it.
Yes, A.T. is most likely real. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18842775/ This tends to be a small reduction in rmr beyond what would be predicted for your "new" weight. The real decrease in "metabolism" is a reduction in NEAT and changes in skeletal muscle efficiency. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12609816/ Basically, your muscles burn less energy than would be predicted for your new size. One way to maybe counter act this is weight lifting. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.22274
Links!
About ghrelin: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925100/
About metabolic adaptation: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2016/11/are-super-obese-ones-who-are.html?m=1#more
More detailed paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oby.22373
Also worth noting from the bottom of the first link you posted:
"No consistent evidence of a disproportionately low resting energy expenditure in long-term successful weight-loss maintainers"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30321282/
Thanks for the links! Always appreciated!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925100/ Yes, ghrelin is a hunger hormone. I was asking for a study about refeeds "resetting" leptin and ghrelin lvls. Not sure if this one does.
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2016/11/are-super-obese-ones-who-are.html?m=1#more Unfortunately, this is an opinion piece. It does not mean the author's opinion is wrong, but we have to cautious when using opinion pieces as evidence. Sometimes, not always, authors cherry pick data to back their opinions. Good article though. Read it when it came out.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oby.22373 Dr. Hill and Dr Wyatt, look up to them greatly, but look at the end of the article.
"these data should be interpreted with caution, as the lack of REE measurements prior to
weight loss in this group does not allow us to determine whether REE
may have decreased to a greater extent than expected for the amount of
weight lost within a given individual."
Leibel's work in a metabolic ward does. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673773/
Metabolic ward studies are a gold standard.
also worth noting from the bottom of the first link you posted: ?
Most likely a study that quoted this one.
@psuLemon I know Menno Henselmenn has done some interesting work on AT but i believe it closely aligns to what you are saying. Most of the effects are going to be in leaner individuals, but the individual response can vastly differ. In Mennos case, he maintains at 3000 calories (roughly) but in order to lose 1 lb a week, requires him to cut calories to 1800. Is that all AT? Unlikely, but maybe part of that and transient reductions in NEAT from less food.
Yes, tracks well with the NEAT being the largest component of AT vs the much smaller RMR drop.
@PAV8888 smarter, stronger, and taller twin
But...... not nearly as good looking or charming with the gals as my smaller, needs to lift, just as smart as twin.
2
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