Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
why cant some people realise that to lose weight i i have to be in a calorie deficit??
Replies
-
I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
well we dont actually know what your medical advisors said -we only have a second hand version of that via you.
My long experience of working in medical care has shown me that many patients misunderstand what they are told
Just today somebody said their doctor had told them to stop taking all their medication - there was no record in the patients notes of this and the doctor confirmed he had said no such thing.
12 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
Yes. While there is every possibility there is a miscommunication between you and them, if you are accurately reporting their analysis, then yes, the people do know at least one thing your advisers don't. Like if you purported your medical researchers said "the earth is flat", they'd be just as wrong about that despite their years of medical school. By the same standard, if your advisers are literally saying a body can't lose weight in an actual calorie deficit, they are know at least one thing less than people that say calorie deficits cause weight loss.
Not to mention, for all they learn about very specific forms of biology, plenty of doctors do believe wrong things. There are plenty of doctors that deny evolution despite the fact that without it, it makes no sense that they ever study animal models in addition to humans, or that a test on a chimpanzee is more reliable about what will happen from a treatment than the same done on rats, and both better than a study done in iguanas.
In fact, some of the most prominent voices in the "woo" community are medical doctors, so the answer to the question "Oh, you think you know more than doctors?" can easily be "Yes, I do know more than some of them, at least on this particular subject!"10 -
There are situation where in-depth medical investigations can help a person regain good working internal order. Just because I had the misfortune not to fit into the didactic boxes our system demands does not mean that others will not have similar difficulties.
Food intolerance testing can be very difficult to obtain access too over here. Food intolerances are a growing problematic area for genetic, familial and environmental reasons. Dietary internal disturbance is a primary way for many to hold on to weight because of the "inflammation", for want of a better term for the debris they create. Genetic issues, true rather rare, things like Prada Willy for one and though I look on Cushing's as endocrine in origin it too can be Genetic. Epigenetics is an area of fact which so far has not trickled down to the local medic as yet.
Doctors are equally likely to fall for subjectivity as us ordinary mortals, telling everyone they should eat less and move more when there are food intolerances are likely involved, when a more interested conversation would have shown the base problems to be less than common.
Take for instance the young doctor, who. He, told me the very angry blue boil standing 3/4 of an inch away from my red and swollen forehead, which was painful beyond my belief and closing my eyes, needed, NO treatment because, "You are only concerned about your looks". Totally distraught I went home, got out the sewing machine, to use my anger constructively making a skirt. In his eyes I was over reacting, my regular family doctor had retired. Only to rip the head off said boil, with the sewing machine arm which pulls the thread from the upper reel (at least on all the UK sewing machines I know and own.) A scream and Blood everywhere. Had he lanced it instead of being totally sexist! It could have been far less traumatic. His attitude framed my view of doctors. Or the other male doctor not so young, who knew all female pain was "normal" when on a while, it was actually a cancer after an interim one has ignored the results of a scan, saying, its ok! Though the person doing the scan said it needed more investigation. My point is, there are times to push for support, we can't all fit permitted boxes.
If calorie counting does not work, when you weigh and measure properly, following the guidelines to the letter, then you need a more engaged, more interested and thoughtful Doctor to help, rather than having the, Eat less, Move more, mantra dinned into your head yet again. I've only ever sought help when I could not change things for myself. Ready to answer questions and ask questions, knowing my facts. Time constrains often mean you are being shown the door for being totally "inadequate" when its the system which is wanting. I've met one Doctor I respect in 70 years, he was not on a box ticking exercise. He knew I would not be allowed back to the regional centre, it was he who gave me the knowledge to find what worked for me.
My experiences can't be that unrepresentative of at least some. I had the right to better health, so do the others. I have it, I want nothing less for the others too.
3 -
Prada Willy syndrome does not disprove CICO - it is a syndrome where people's hunger cures are out of whack
( amongst other traits such as intellectual disabilty) - and thus they eat way beyond what they need.
If their access to food is restrained, they maintain weight in the same way everyone else does.
not sure what your abscess anecdote proves - that doctors sometimes get it wrong and are subject to personal bias?
Sure, that can happen.
But it doesnt disprove CICO- it says nothing about it at all.
Everyone has the right to better health - again, that says nothing about CICO.
and of course get help for any medical issues - but the idea that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO does not apply??
No, not so.20 -
trulyhealy wrote: »i was arguing with a grown woman who’s done slimming world and lost weight and we had an argument about how you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight and she wasn’t having it.
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
I was unfriended but a woman who said calories have nothing to do with losing weight
She told me that a deficit put you in "starvation mode" (which is a myth) ...............
I told her to check out the Minnesota Experiment and she called me a few choice names and unfriended me...…..
YES! You have to eat less than you burn to lose weight...………. seems simple enough, right?
9 -
If she is losing weight by eating at a surplus then she is either exercising too much or not aware of how much she is eating. Both are not sustainable and she will be prone gain some weight back.0
-
Why does it bother you that someone doesn't agree with you? I can think of lots of other things more worthy of my stress.10
-
trulyhealy wrote: »i was arguing with a grown woman who’s done slimming world and lost weight and we had an argument about how you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight and she wasn’t having it.
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
Well, Slimming World would lose out on the money they make off of her if she was to realize that weight loss is extremely simple. And they use all kinds of little tools to keep their clients boggled. She has obviously fallen for it hook line and sinker, but people like her are the reason that diets don't work - especially long term. Since she has NO idea how she is losing weight, she will have no idea how to keep it off once she has reached her goal. This also benefits Slimming World - the most important revenue for any company is REPEAT CUSTOMERS.7 -
There are situation where in-depth medical investigations can help a person regain good working internal order. Just because I had the misfortune not to fit into the didactic boxes our system demands does not mean that others will not have similar difficulties.
Food intolerance testing can be very difficult to obtain access too over here. Food intolerances are a growing problematic area for genetic, familial and environmental reasons. Dietary internal disturbance is a primary way for many to hold on to weight because of the "inflammation", for want of a better term for the debris they create. Genetic issues, true rather rare, things like Prada Willy for one and though I look on Cushing's as endocrine in origin it too can be Genetic. Epigenetics is an area of fact which so far has not trickled down to the local medic as yet.
Doctors are equally likely to fall for subjectivity as us ordinary mortals, telling everyone they should eat less and move more when there are food intolerances are likely involved, when a more interested conversation would have shown the base problems to be less than common.
Take for instance the young doctor, who. He, told me the very angry blue boil standing 3/4 of an inch away from my red and swollen forehead, which was painful beyond my belief and closing my eyes, needed, NO treatment because, "You are only concerned about your looks". Totally distraught I went home, got out the sewing machine, to use my anger constructively making a skirt. In his eyes I was over reacting, my regular family doctor had retired. Only to rip the head off said boil, with the sewing machine arm which pulls the thread from the upper reel (at least on all the UK sewing machines I know and own.) A scream and Blood everywhere. Had he lanced it instead of being totally sexist! It could have been far less traumatic. His attitude framed my view of doctors. Or the other male doctor not so young, who knew all female pain was "normal" when on a while, it was actually a cancer after an interim one has ignored the results of a scan, saying, its ok! Though the person doing the scan said it needed more investigation. My point is, there are times to push for support, we can't all fit permitted boxes.
If calorie counting does not work, when you weigh and measure properly, following the guidelines to the letter, then you need a more engaged, more interested and thoughtful Doctor to help, rather than having the, Eat less, Move more, mantra dinned into your head yet again. I've only ever sought help when I could not change things for myself. Ready to answer questions and ask questions, knowing my facts. Time constrains often mean you are being shown the door for being totally "inadequate" when its the system which is wanting. I've met one Doctor I respect in 70 years, he was not on a box ticking exercise. He knew I would not be allowed back to the regional centre, it was he who gave me the knowledge to find what worked for me.
My experiences can't be that unrepresentative of at least some. I had the right to better health, so do the others. I have it, I want nothing less for the others too.
You said you it's impossible for you to lose weight. It is impossible for you NOT to as long as you eat in a deficit day after day. It might be DIFFICULT (not impossible) for you and your doctor to find this number, but it exists.10 -
has anyone ever seen a photo of a person from a POW camp - and that person is not extremely underweight???
Now I am not suggesting anyone aim for that - but given the huge numbers of people interrred in such places - does it not strike you as likely at least some would have conditions making weight loss impossible, if such conditions exist?
and yet there were none.
Now it is possible your condition is so rare that nobody out of hundreds of thousands of people in POW camps and famines in 3rd world countries has ever had it and so therefore none of them did not lose weight - but I somehow doubt it.8 -
7 -
paperpudding wrote: »Prada Willy syndrome does not disprove CICO - it is a syndrome where people's hunger cures are out of whack
( amongst other traits such as intellectual disabilty) - and thus they eat way beyond what they need.
If their access to food is restrained, they maintain weight in the same way everyone else does.
If anything, the related disorder of Pica - eating nonfood objects - is closer to defying CICO. Sure, rocks have no calories, but sure, if you eat a pound of them, you're going to weight a pound more until you have a very unpleasant bathroom trip, stomach pump, or surgery. Or if eating dirt, the potential parasites could definitely make a difference between calories in your mouth and calories into your actual system.4 -
That as well as not all medical professionals give good advice.
About a month ago, I found out that someone who was an ROTC cadet with me as an undergrad and went on to Medical School is now on QuackWatch for some questionable medical advice offered to clients.
The anti-vax, anti-mask, etc is not limited to the uneducated. There are plenty of educated people who also buy into such pap.
In general, not commenting on any specific advice here, just because Doctor with Credentials advocates something doesn't mean it's good advice.paperpudding wrote: »I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
well we dont actually know what your medical advisors said -we only have a second hand version of that via you.
My long experience of working in medical care has shown me that many patients misunderstand what they are told
Just today somebody said their doctor had told them to stop taking all their medication - there was no record in the patients notes of this and the doctor confirmed he had said no such thing.
5 -
When one has Hashimoto's, use mfp which for my height allows 1200 as lowest safe calorie limit it was impossible for me to loose weight. I needed to improve the many food intolerances and other symptoms which were causing additional damage to my health from the originally dismissed then inadequately, ineffectively treated Hashimoto's which had caused my body so much damage over the years. There are many different forms of autoimmunity with differing levels of autoimmunity within the community, mine was dire. The range of foods I could eat without increasing my symptoms was minimal.
You may not like it but some of us do have difficulties because our bodies are so damaged for reasons other than self intended abuse. Eating Less and moving more does not always cut it. I knew there had to be more to my life than what was on offer with the practice I had been with for years.
Having taken other advice with full testing I changed away from standard t4 which in this country (uk) contains dairy as one of the binders in pill form which is one of my diagnosed issues, in liquid form it contains paraben another of my issues. (paraben is a food preservative and is hardly ever on a food contents list). I lost and kept off 7 stone for many years. FYI. I did not need to count calories, the weight came off because my body was then working as it should.4 -
When one has Hashimoto's, use mfp which for my height allows 1200 as lowest safe calorie limit it was impossible for me to loose weight. I needed to improve the many food intolerances and other symptoms which were causing additional damage to my health from the originally dismissed then inadequately, ineffectively treated Hashimoto's which had caused my body so much damage over the years. There are many different forms of autoimmunity with differing levels of autoimmunity within the community, mine was dire. The range of foods I could eat without increasing my symptoms was minimal.
You may not like it but some of us do have difficulties because our bodies are so damaged for reasons other than self intended abuse. Eating Less and moving more does not always cut it. I knew there had to be more to my life than what was on offer with the practice I had been with for years.
Having taken other advice with full testing I changed away from standard t4 which in this country (uk) contains dairy as one of the binders in pill form which is one of my diagnosed issues, in liquid form it contains paraben another of my issues. (paraben is a food preservative and is hardly ever on a food contents list). I lost and kept off 7 stone for many years. FYI. I did not need to count calories, the weight came off because my body was then working as it should.
Nothing you are saying disproves CICO or eat less, move more. Whether or not you were able to lose weight at 1200 calories cannot be determined unless your food was being controlled under laboratory conditions. It is common even with logging to be off 20 percent or more.
For the sake of argument if you were unable to lose weight at 1200 it still doesn't disprove anything because it would just mean in your unique condition you would need a medically supervised VLCD to lose weight. There is no amount of damage to your body that can make it create energy from thin air. If you take in less food energy than you need to sustain and move yourself you absolutely must used stored energy to cover the deficit. There is no way around it.
I am glad you were able to get the help you needed and it resulted in weight loss. I hope as you tell your story to others it serves as a hopeful message not one that makes them doubt the true science of weight loss.9 -
Obviously there is a simplistic view of the depth and breadth of damage to someone's life that undiagnosed, untreated, then ineffectively treated Hashimoto's can cause a persons body. Every system in my body was affected, because the endocrine system is supposed to work in unison. When I go into town I see others with similar, probably dismissed difficulties. For me it actually took comprehensive endocrine system support for me to still be here, others are not so fortunate. I'd been told there was no treatment for me by my local NHS providers, they could not put me into any of their permitted boxes. At Regional NHS Immunology, higher up the NHS hierarchy, they told me what I needed, yet the local funding practice refused me that care!
I've heard recently, VLCD supervised regimes are about to be offered or are under consideration for some diabetics over here. Under any measures they would use, I and others like me, did not, could not, would not have fulfilled their requirements to be considered let alone accepted. I was and still am not diabetic nor are others with similar issues. Nor are we freaks, nor snowflakes. As I wrote in my first post on this thread, "there are people in this world who need to repair damage to the bodies systems", viewed as a whole before they have a chance of regaining their "health", epitomised for the general public as the Holy Grail of Loosing Excess weight.
Truthfully all I wanted was to be able to do was to live the active life I knew was possible. In the end, the weight did not matter, I'd accepted I was as I was the size I was. I wanted to be able to breath, to have stamina to have fun. Not to need to throw up on smelling someone's fowl laundry residue, perfume or aftershave, if not being convulsed into coughing bouts by the feted air in a concert or school halls for grandchildren's performances, I sometimes had those reactions even in the open air too. I wanted to play with the children be part of their lives. I wanted as others do, to LIVE.
All most of the population understands is weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, NOT the need for a good quality of life. I'm speaking for the others who are as I was, who have more Life affirming goals of better health which are often withheld from them, (at least over here) for lack of proper medical support, people for whom losing weight is the last thing their systems are able to cope with given the present state of their endocrine system and/or implications of other autoimmune conditions, a body needs to work properly before it can behave normally.
If you have a properly functioning body which conforms, be thankful.2 -
If eating less and moving more was that simple and worked, no one training for a marathon would be overweight, and ive seen plenty of overweight runners. I was one, living on calorie deficit, running, working out, doing ultrathons. Its not sustainable. You'll lose weight in the beginning, but you'll gain it back unless you luve your life in a calorie deficit. Many people actually under eat. CICO works, but yiu need to have a healthy metabolism and no underlying health issues for it to work properly. I've undereaten for the last couple years and have consistently gained weight. Now I'm with a trainer that has me on a reverse diet, adding in 500 calories a day.1
-
lorimiller18 wrote: »If eating less and moving more was that simple and worked, no one training for a marathon would be overweight, and ive seen plenty of overweight runners. I was one, living on calorie deficit, running, working out, doing ultrathons. Its not sustainable. You'll lose weight in the beginning, but you'll gain it back unless you luve your life in a calorie deficit. Many people actually under eat. CICO works, but yiu need to have a healthy metabolism and no underlying health issues for it to work properly. I've undereaten for the last couple years and have consistently gained weight. Now I'm with a trainer that has me on a reverse diet, adding in 500 calories a day.
Actually the problem is you did not know your numbers.
You knew estimated numbers you used for math.
But not your real numbers.
You can mess up the CO part by the level of CI you attempt to do - and while you could have been burning many calories on the running your body can adjust to the foolishness of too much deficit and lower the CO for other aspects.
Just because you didn't have correct numbers doesn't mean the facts aren't true.
You were eating more than you were burning if you were gaining FAT weight.
But many reasons to gain water weight which many people have misunderstandings about.
You can have very terrible metabolism (by that I mean not where it could be because body has adapted) and still eat low enough you will lose fat weight.
You'll also be massively stressing out your body - but it will lose fat. And muscle.
Sounds like you did that - hence eating more. Eventually you'll be in good spot to lose weight reasonably.
7 -
All most of the population understands is weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, NOT the need for a good quality of life. I'm speaking for the others who are as I was, who have more Life affirming goals of better health which are often withheld from them, (at least over here) for lack of proper medical support, people for whom losing weight is the last thing their systems are able to cope with given the present state of their endocrine system and/or implications of other autoimmune conditions, a body needs to work properly before it can behave normally.
If you have a properly functioning body which conforms, be thankful.
that seems a complete strawman to me - all most of the population understands is not weight loss, weight loss, weight loss at all.
Almost everybody understands the need for good quality of life, separate to one's weight.
The medical system where you live may or may not provide good care for your medical issues - but that in no way disproves CICO nor means you could not lose weight if you ate less than you burned.
Your claim to special snowflake status - it is just impossible for me to lose weight because xyz special reasons - seems very tenuous to me.9 -
Obviously there is a simplistic view of the depth and breadth of damage to someone's life that undiagnosed, untreated, then ineffectively treated Hashimoto's can cause a persons body. Every system in my body was affected, because the endocrine system is supposed to work in unison. When I go into town I see others with similar, probably dismissed difficulties. For me it actually took comprehensive endocrine system support for me to still be here, others are not so fortunate. I'd been told there was no treatment for me by my local NHS providers, they could not put me into any of their permitted boxes. At Regional NHS Immunology, higher up the NHS hierarchy, they told me what I needed, yet the local funding practice refused me that care!
I've heard recently, VLCD supervised regimes are about to be offered or are under consideration for some diabetics over here. Under any measures they would use, I and others like me, did not, could not, would not have fulfilled their requirements to be considered let alone accepted. I was and still am not diabetic nor are others with similar issues. Nor are we freaks, nor snowflakes. As I wrote in my first post on this thread, "there are people in this world who need to repair damage to the bodies systems", viewed as a whole before they have a chance of regaining their "health", epitomised for the general public as the Holy Grail of Loosing Excess weight.
Truthfully all I wanted was to be able to do was to live the active life I knew was possible. In the end, the weight did not matter, I'd accepted I was as I was the size I was. I wanted to be able to breath, to have stamina to have fun. Not to need to throw up on smelling someone's fowl laundry residue, perfume or aftershave, if not being convulsed into coughing bouts by the feted air in a concert or school halls for grandchildren's performances, I sometimes had those reactions even in the open air too. I wanted to play with the children be part of their lives. I wanted as others do, to LIVE.
All most of the population understands is weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, NOT the need for a good quality of life. I'm speaking for the others who are as I was, who have more Life affirming goals of better health which are often withheld from them, (at least over here) for lack of proper medical support, people for whom losing weight is the last thing their systems are able to cope with given the present state of their endocrine system and/or implications of other autoimmune conditions, a body needs to work properly before it can behave normally.
If you have a properly functioning body which conforms, be thankful.
I am not downplaying what you have gone through. In the context of this thread though it doesn't change anything. Even while you were suffering your heart beat, your lungs filled with air, and the rest of your organs maintained your life. Presumably you moved around some as well. All of this requires energy which had to come from somewhere.
If you were too ill to lose weight in a normal healthy manner that is another issue. It doesn't mean that CICO doesn't work. It just means that at the time it may not have been advisable for you to do it. It also doesn't mean it was impossible.
It is a comfort to know that once you determine your caloric needs that eating less forces weight loss. There are a lot of people still out there suffering. They may not suffer to the same degree you have suffered but that doesn't make their suffering go away. They need hope. They already have a lot of doubt. They need to believe if they keep putting one foot in front of the other they will move forward towards something better. One of the hardest things to get people to do is to trust the process.
I have never known enough of the population well enough to know what they understand about weight loss. Making assumptions about what they "know" is folly in my opinion. I know from my Larger Losers group here at MFP that quality of life is EXTREMELY important to people who have a lot to lose. It was extremely important to me. My life was a prison of fat. I was in constant pain. Everything was a challenge including just lying in bed to sleep at night. I also had a convulsive cough that was easily set off. Even the slight variance in air pressure inside a vehicle could get it started. It was so bad that it scared people who heard it and it more than occasionally ended in vomit.
7
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 901 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.2K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions