Is BMI an accurate way to know how much I should weigh?
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frankwbrown wrote: »frankwbrown wrote: »...
Sure, BMI is good for a lot of people. But why rely on a metric that only considers height and weight? Why not try, e.g. the Navy's method of estimating body fat percentage? It uses gender, height, weight, waist circumference, hip circumference (for women), and neck circumference. All easy to do. Just my opinion.
I don't know what I said in the above quote that prompted several people to click Disagree.
Do you disagree that "BMI is good for a lot of people"?
Do you disagree with my suggestion to try the Navy method? Or that it's "easy to do"?
My problem with BMI is that in order to cover most people, it has to have a fairly broad range of BMI categorized as Normal. It is flawed logic to think this only results in some "outliers" appearing to be overweight (or underweight). Those that are "outliers" would include not only those who are normal but fall outside the normal BMI range, but also those who are not normal but appear to be, i.e. too fat but have a normal BMI, or too skinny but have a normal BMI.
I knew a woman years ago that clearly had a self-image problem (probably had anorexia). I wonder if her BMI did or would have told her she's in the underweight category. Hopefully so.
So disagree as you will, but I don't care much for BMI, and as Shakespeare said in Much Ado About Nothing, it is an "opinion that fire cannot melt out of me. I will die in it at the stake."
Digression from OP, but: No point in worrying over disagrees, at least unless/until there are a bunch on one post, anyway (and maybe even then, if it makes no sense on reconsideration). Sometimes people hit the "disagree" accidentally when thumb-scrolling on a phone; some people disagree with pretty much any post on the opposite side of any hot-button topic (like BMI); some people lack reading comprehension and misinterpret; posts that mention "disagree" tend to draw disagrees because people consider themselves jokesters; sometimes if one hacks off a person on some other thread (or earlier in the current one) they'll disagree on any post they see from you until they get over their tantrum; more.
None of it worth consideration, IMO, for anyone with reasoned convictions and adequate ego-strength. If they can't use their words to explain, and the back-thread provides no insight . . . might as well let it go, or it can drive a person crazy. 😉
For clarity: I didn't disagree with your PP, click-wise or otherwise. I do agree with Jane's perspective on it, though: Don't understand why people are so wrought about BMI, unless they don't like their own number and somehow take it personally. It's just a screener, not intended to be individually definitive. When insurance companies or the like use it (without a better individualized fallback measure) in rate-setting or some other matter of consequence, that's worth getting angry about. Otherwise, who cares?5 -
frankwbrown wrote: »@janejellyroll
The OP said (emphasis mine):
I understand the roll BMI is meant to play, and that it is not the be all and end all of determining body health. No method is that, although some are better than others. But given what the OP said in opening this thread, It seems misplaced for some to be defending BMI rather than advising the OP to look for other measures. Thus, my comments.nonachalke wrote: »I looked up my BMI last night and it says I’m overweight, so obviously I’m freaking out. But is it accurate? I don’t want to just lose weight, I want to get toned and strong, I like muscle on me, but how do I know how much I should weigh?!
People are defending BMI as a population-level guide. If one's BMI is outside the normal range, it's worth investigating whether or not one is overweight. Given how normalized excess weight is in our society, it's likely that there are people who *see* themselves as normal weight when they're actually overweight, which is why I'm not as sanguine as some people on this thread with the "Well, if you look okay to yourself, I'm sure you're fine."
All of us can think of people who see themselves as fat when they're really perfectly fine, but it's also pretty common for people to insist that they're just big boned or have dense tissue or they're just overweight because of all their muscle. Which one is OP? I have no way of knowing. What I wouldn't do is tell someone who was overweight on the BMI chart that I'm sure they have nothing to worry about.5 -
frankwbrown wrote: »frankwbrown wrote: »...
Sure, BMI is good for a lot of people. But why rely on a metric that only considers height and weight? Why not try, e.g. the Navy's method of estimating body fat percentage? It uses gender, height, weight, waist circumference, hip circumference (for women), and neck circumference. All easy to do. Just my opinion.
I don't know what I said in the above quote that prompted several people to click Disagree.
Do you disagree that "BMI is good for a lot of people"?
Do you disagree with my suggestion to try the Navy method? Or that it's "easy to do"?
My problem with BMI is that in order to cover most people, it has to have a fairly broad range of BMI categorized as Normal. It is flawed logic to think this only results in some "outliers" appearing to be overweight (or underweight). Those that are "outliers" would include not only those who are normal but fall outside the normal BMI range, but also those who are not normal but appear to be, i.e. too fat but have a normal BMI, or too skinny but have a normal BMI.
I knew a woman years ago that clearly had a self-image problem (probably had anorexia). I wonder if her BMI did or would have told her she's in the underweight category. Hopefully so.
So disagree as you will, but I don't care much for BMI, and as Shakespeare said in Much Ado About Nothing, it is an "opinion that fire cannot melt out of me. I will die in it at the stake."
Digression from OP, but: No point in worrying over disagrees, at least unless/until there are a bunch on one post, anyway (and maybe even then, if it makes no sense on reconsideration). Sometimes people hit the "disagree" accidentally when thumb-scrolling on a phone; some people disagree with pretty much any post on the opposite side of any hot-button topic (like BMI); some people lack reading comprehension and misinterpret; posts that mention "disagree" tend to draw disagrees because people consider themselves jokesters; sometimes if one hacks off a person on some other thread (or earlier in the current one) they'll disagree on any post they see from you until they get over their tantrum; more.
None of it worth consideration, IMO, for anyone with reasoned convictions and adequate ego-strength. If they can't use their words to explain, and the back-thread provides no insight . . . might as well let it go, or it can drive a person crazy. 😉
For clarity: I didn't disagree with your PP, click-wise or otherwise. I do agree with Jane's perspective on it, though: Don't understand why people are so wrought about BMI, unless they don't like their own number and somehow take it personally. It's just a screener, not intended to be individually definitive. When insurance companies or the like use it (without a better individualized fallback measure) in rate-setting or some other matter of consequence, that's worth getting angry about. Otherwise, who cares?
And for the record, I do oppose anyone using BMI as a single point of determining data without taking anything else into account (I know you weren't saying otherwise, just wanted to make that clear).1 -
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azalea4175 wrote: »Liftsalotat5 wrote: »Getting a bod pod is the way to go in order to understand how much of your body weight is fat. Height/weight ratios are pretty worthless. IMO, anyway. I only pay $40 for a bod pod test and it shows me every 6-8 weeks how much fat I’ve lost and how much lean muscle mass was gained. What good is losing 15 pounds if 10 of those are muscle mass? I yo-yo’d a lot with losing muscle mass whenever I lost weight until I started using that testing method.
Where does one find a "bod pod"? I am pretty sure such a thing is not available to us....have I mentioned I live practically at the end of the earth in Maine?
Google Bod Pod Maine and see what you come up with.1 -
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azalea4175 wrote: »Liftsalotat5 wrote: »Getting a bod pod is the way to go in order to understand how much of your body weight is fat. Height/weight ratios are pretty worthless. IMO, anyway. I only pay $40 for a bod pod test and it shows me every 6-8 weeks how much fat I’ve lost and how much lean muscle mass was gained. What good is losing 15 pounds if 10 of those are muscle mass? I yo-yo’d a lot with losing muscle mass whenever I lost weight until I started using that testing method.
Where does one find a "bod pod"? I am pretty sure such a thing is not available to us....have I mentioned I live practically at the end of the earth in Maine?
It really depends on the area. I've never managed to live anywhere that a reasonably priced bidpod was within a 50 mile radius.
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azalea4175 wrote: »Where does one find a "bod pod"? I am pretty sure such a thing is not available to us....have I mentioned I live practically at the end of the earth in Maine?
Check with universities and/or professional athletic organizations in your area. They often will have some means of body composition testing.
I was looking into getting a bodpod-based assessment, and realized I'd have to travel some distance for that. Then I learned of a company that had mobile DEXA units. I was able to meet one of those vans ~64 miles away. I did that on Sept 30th, and I'm having a 2nd scan on Dec 20th. I feel doing this every 3 months or so is worthwhile for me personally, at least until I am down to the weight I want to be.
A much cheaper alternative to DEXA or BodPod is getting a weight scale that measures body fat. They won't be as accurate, but the decent ones aren't any worse than BMI. I've seen them range in price from less than $30 to over $300. Many support bluetooth so you can capture your measurements in an app. I purchased a Withings Body+ for $79 and have been very happy with it. It takes me 2 minutes to copy my weight, body fat %, fat mass, lean mass, etc. into a Google sheet.
I understand many will say I'm going overboard and that BMI and common sense is all you need. To those I say, "You do your thing, and I'll do mine."
I fully admit that as a retired programmer, I tend to obsess a bit about data.
This is a chart that is updated daily when I enter each day's data.
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frankwbrown wrote: »azalea4175 wrote: »Where does one find a "bod pod"? I am pretty sure such a thing is not available to us....have I mentioned I live practically at the end of the earth in Maine?
Check with universities and/or professional athletic organizations in your area. They often will have some means of body composition testing.
I was looking into getting a bodpod-based assessment, and realized I'd have to travel some distance for that. Then I learned of a company that had mobile DEXA units. I was able to meet one of those vans ~64 miles away. I did that on Sept 30th, and I'm having a 2nd scan on Dec 20th. I feel doing this every 3 months or so is worthwhile for me personally, at least until I am down to the weight I want to be.
A much cheaper alternative to DEXA or BodPod is getting a weight scale that measures body fat. They won't be as accurate, but the decent ones aren't any worse than BMI. I've seen them range in price from less than $30 to over $300. Many support bluetooth so you can capture your measurements in an app. I purchased a Withings Body+ for $79 and have been very happy with it. It takes me 2 minutes to copy my weight, body fat %, fat mass, lean mass, etc. into a Google sheet.
I understand many will say I'm going overboard and that BMI and common sense is all you need. To those I say, "You do your thing, and I'll do mine."
I fully admit that as a retired programmer, I tend to obsess a bit about data.
This is a chart that is updated daily when I enter each day's data.
Have you compared a DEXA scan to the Withings scale? We have an older scale and it isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell regarding getting a reading similar to DEXA scan.
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Yes. Here is a comparison:Theoldguy1 wrote: »Have you compared a DEXA scan to the Withings scale? We have an older scale and it isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell regarding getting a reading similar to DEXA scan.
A = Withings Body+ (9/30 at 6:10 am);
B = DEXA scan (9/30 at 11:30 am)
body fat: A = 49% , B = 44.5%
weight (lb): A = 304.9, B = 305.0
fat mass (lb): A = 150.8, B = 135.6
lean mass (lb): A = 154.1, B = 169.4 (159.9 excluding bone mass)
water mass (lb): A = 125.8, B = n/a
bone mass (lb): A = 7.6, B = 9.5
BMI: A = 40.4
Bioelectrical impedance isn't that accurate, especially when only feet are involved (vs feet and hands).
I use it primarily to confirm that I'm losing fat mass and not lean mass.
Some doctors at Cedars-Sinai developed an alternative to BMI. It's called Body Fat Mass Index.
Relative Fat Mass Index:
Men: 64 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
Women: 76 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/relative-fat-mass.html
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If you don't have a lot of muscle, then it's okay. But you could also be very "skinny/fat" and be within the BMI level for your height and weight.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Exactly. I am 225 lbs and my bmi is 33 but when I was at 170 lbs, I looked like a bobblehead. This definitely isn't a one size fits all type of scenario.1 -
You don't need to be on the level of an “elite” bodybuilder, if you've been lifting for a year or more you will develop a lot of muscle mass. Most of your gains will occur in the first year assuming you eat right and train hard. If you have gained 20lbs of muscles in your first year, then BMI is unreliable.
As i've said, I have a 32.5 inch waist at a BMI of 24.2, if I gain 4 more pounds i'm officially in the overweight category. And that's just me doing bodyweight exercises for the past months, it doesn't take much
And i'm not even going to delve into the subject of gender and different ethnicities.
Exactly!!!! I agree 400%1 -
DBGittings wrote: »You don't need to be on the level of an “elite” bodybuilder, if you've been lifting for a year or more you will develop a lot of muscle mass. Most of your gains will occur in the first year assuming you eat right and train hard. If you have gained 20lbs of muscles in your first year, then BMI is unreliable.
As i've said, I have a 32.5 inch waist at a BMI of 24.2, if I gain 4 more pounds i'm officially in the overweight category. And that's just me doing bodyweight exercises for the past months, it doesn't take much
And i'm not even going to delve into the subject of gender and different ethnicities.
Exactly!!!! I agree 400%
To me, the claim that anyone who just lifts for a year is going to gain enough muscle weight to skew their BMI seems like it undercuts the real work that many people are doing to add muscle.
Most people aren't going to add twenty pounds in a year from just lifting.9 -
It may be more than a year for some people but the point is its not hard to gain muscle mass assuming you're fairly young and have normal levels of testosterone. Stop focusing on the one year part, gaining muscle mass is not that hard for most men.
I've been around young people who lifts, they put muscle mass on without even trying.
If you're over 40, it's a different ball game.1 -
Here we go with the disagree spam, have you noticed that I said a year OR MORE in the post he just quoted? It might take more than a year, but look at the bigger point. Gaining muscles while young is relatively easy, even if it's just 10-15lbs of muscles it's enough to put you “slightly” out of the normal range. Meaning a bmi of 26-27.
And for some reason people are fixated on bmi, when I mention waist to height ratio or other measures people start spamming disagree.1 -
Question about waist to height ratio. How do you guys measure your waist? Fully relaxed mine is 36". Fully relaxed with all the air blown out it is 35.5". Flexed (not sucked in) it's 33.5" What to do...? I weigh 178lbs at 5'10". According to BMI I am overweight.
Note: when I weigh 175lbs all measurements come down 1/2 inch. For my height, I think 174lbs is the cut off for normal bmi...2 -
First thing in the morning, I measure right at the belly button and fully relaxed with the air blown out. As long as you measure your waist relaxed and you don't flex or suck in.
Edit : It's also good to point out that is you do weighed ab exercises, or you do hypertrophy based exercises for abs your waist size might increase in the process.1 -
Question about waist to height ratio. How do you guys measure your waist? Fully relaxed mine is 36". Fully relaxed with all the air blown out it is 35.5". Flexed (not sucked in) it's 33.5" What to do...? I weigh 178lbs at 5'10". According to BMI I am overweight.
Note: when I weigh 175lbs all measurements come down 1/2 inch. For my height, I think 174lbs is the cut off for normal bmi...
I've had this done by different nurses in a doctor's office several times. The measurement is taken fully relaxed.2 -
It may be more than a year for some people but the point is its not hard to gain muscle mass assuming you're fairly young and have normal levels of testosterone. Stop focusing on the one year part, gaining muscle mass is not that hard for most men.
I've been around young people who lifts, they put muscle mass on without even trying.
If you're over 40, it's a different ball game.
I've been going to gyms for 40+ years, all age ranges in most of the places I've gone. There are not that many people that are really muscular. This is at the gym. 60% of adults do not resistance training at all. Look around next time you go to the beach, how many males young or otherwise look muscular?
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I figured some of this would boil down to young(ish) men generalizing from personal experience - in a way we alll tend to do. (I'm not picking on young men as the only ones who do this sort of thing, but the bias toward fast muscle gain potential rarely turns up in elderly women, say. 😆)
OP is female. It's very likely that there's a good weight for her somewhere inside the normal BMI range. (Likely = high statistical probability.) For sure? No. Best method to decide on a specific weight? Probably not. A weight she personally would prefer to be at for a variety of perfectly sensible reasons? Not necessarily.
It sounds like she's probably new to strength exercise. That makes it very, very unlikely that she has enough muscle mass *now* to fall high in the normal BMI range, just from that. Possible? Maybe, like if a farm girl or something equivalent. But unlikely.
On the plus side, she appears to be young (compared to me 😆), so her odds of mass gain with the proper program should be better rather than worse. Good stuff.
Twenty pounds of mass in a year, even with a perfect program? Not very likely for a woman, even a young one. Possible? Maybe. Probability that 20 pounds of mass on a young woman, relative beginner to strength training, would mean she could find no sensible, healthy weight anywhere in the normal BMI range? Hmm. Possible, but probably middling probability, still. I admit that last is a guess. For sure, the probability is non-zero. (Which is not the same thing as saying that OP's best weight with 20 pounds of muscle is certainly within the normal BMI range. That's not what that probability statement, in the form I made it, means.)7 -
My experience differs from yours. I live in Canada, i've visited 10+ gyms and it's very common to see really muscular people. I started lifting really young and i've seen the progress of many young lifters, it didn't take long for them to build a considerable amount of muscle mass. Yes they lift heavy and eat a lot of food, but it's really not that difficult.
In general, we have lower levels of obesity particularly morbid obesity.0 -
Gaining muscles while young is relatively easy, even if it's just 10-15lbs of muscles it's enough to put you “slightly” out of the normal range. Meaning a bmi of 26-27.
That assumes they [apparently a man, based on your reference to testosterone] started with average or better muscle mass for a man already, and one gains faster if one is new to lifting. The idea that any man who adds 10-15 lb of muscle mass must be out of the normal BMI range doesn't make sense.
I would agree that waist to height or calipers or other BF estimates are good supplements IF you think that you are at a good weight above the normal BMI, but it seems like way more people assume they don't fit the normal BMI, even when they are still well above it, than is likely.
Mostly I don't get why this is some huge topic. If an individual thinks it doesn't fit them, there are certainly ways to estimate body fat, and in any case being somewhat into the overweight but not obese range when otherwise active and with no negative test results tends not to be a health issue statistically (with this varying based on ethnic background).5 -
I'm talking about the average man, I speak in generalities. It's not an absolute statement.
Also the point is why go straight to bmi instead of using other measures that are just as valid?0 -
frankwbrown wrote: »
Yes. Here is a comparison:Theoldguy1 wrote: »Have you compared a DEXA scan to the Withings scale? We have an older scale and it isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell regarding getting a reading similar to DEXA scan.
A = Withings Body+ (9/30 at 6:10 am);
B = DEXA scan (9/30 at 11:30 am)
body fat: A = 49% , B = 44.5%
weight (lb): A = 304.9, B = 305.0
fat mass (lb): A = 150.8, B = 135.6
lean mass (lb): A = 154.1, B = 169.4 (159.9 excluding bone mass)
water mass (lb): A = 125.8, B = n/a
bone mass (lb): A = 7.6, B = 9.5
BMI: A = 40.4
Bioelectrical impedance isn't that accurate, especially when only feet are involved (vs feet and hands).
I use it primarily to confirm that I'm losing fat mass and not lean mass.
Some doctors at Cedars-Sinai developed an alternative to BMI. It's called Body Fat Mass Index.
Relative Fat Mass Index:
Men: 64 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
Women: 76 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/relative-fat-mass.html
So - since we've digressed the bejeepers out of this thread already - why not: What result does the RFM calculation yield, for you?
I'm curious, because the result it gives for me - especially if I measure my "waist" at just above the top of my pelvic bones as directed in the article, rather than at natural waist - is . . . improbable, IMO. I understand that the article says RFM is "roughly equal to your body fat percentage." Maybe they define "roughly" differently than I do?
I'm as capable as the next person of having pleasant delusions about my body composition, but the "Navy calculator" says 23%, BIA scale says 23.3%, visual (my own biased eyes, photos like those on an earlier page in the thread) would be mid-twenties % (high teens upper body look, 25-30 lower body look, roughly), BMI 20.6.
RFM, using natural waist = 29. (OK, maybe that's roughly roughly. Very roughly.)
RFM, using top of hip bone as instructed in article = 34. Huh?
I'm not truly bizarre in body geometry, either, I swear. Definitely within the range of normal human females.3 -
I'm talking about the average man, I speak in generalities. It's not an absolute statement.
Also the point is why go straight to bmi instead of using other measures that are just as valid?
The OP is female. It is highly unlikely she is so muscular that she is a bmi outlier. She is not able to put on muscle mass in the manner you have been suggesting. You can't generalize from young men to a woman of unknown age.9 -
frankwbrown wrote: »
Yes. Here is a comparison:Theoldguy1 wrote: »Have you compared a DEXA scan to the Withings scale? We have an older scale and it isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell regarding getting a reading similar to DEXA scan.
A = Withings Body+ (9/30 at 6:10 am);
B = DEXA scan (9/30 at 11:30 am)
body fat: A = 49% , B = 44.5%
weight (lb): A = 304.9, B = 305.0
fat mass (lb): A = 150.8, B = 135.6
lean mass (lb): A = 154.1, B = 169.4 (159.9 excluding bone mass)
water mass (lb): A = 125.8, B = n/a
bone mass (lb): A = 7.6, B = 9.5
BMI: A = 40.4
Bioelectrical impedance isn't that accurate, especially when only feet are involved (vs feet and hands).
I use it primarily to confirm that I'm losing fat mass and not lean mass.
Some doctors at Cedars-Sinai developed an alternative to BMI. It's called Body Fat Mass Index.
Relative Fat Mass Index:
Men: 64 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
Women: 76 – (20 x height/waist circumference) = RFM
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/relative-fat-mass.html
So - since we've digressed the bejeepers out of this thread already - why not: What result does the RFM calculation yield, for you?
I'm curious, because the result it gives for me - especially if I measure my "waist" at just above the top of my pelvic bones as directed in the article, rather than at natural waist - is . . . improbable, IMO. I understand that the article says RFM is "roughly equal to your body fat percentage." Maybe they define "roughly" differently than I do?
I'm as capable as the next person of having pleasant delusions about my body composition, but the "Navy calculator" says 23%, BIA scale says 23.3%, visual (my own biased eyes, photos like those on an earlier page in the thread) would be mid-twenties % (high teens upper body look, 25-30 lower body look, roughly), BMI 20.6.
RFM, using natural waist = 29. (OK, maybe that's roughly roughly. Very roughly.)
RFM, using top of hip bone as instructed in article = 34. Huh?
I'm not truly bizarre in body geometry, either, I swear. Definitely within the range of normal human females.
It's almost as if this suggests that ANY one metric can be off for a certain percentage of people (or can be mismeasured by some people) and it's best to consider several and think critically about the ones that give unexpected results. 4 -
and even most muscular fit young men are not far out of BMI range - a point I made earlier.
This 'but young muscly men disprove BMI charts' seems nonsense to me.
Yes they may be slightly out of range - ie have BMI of 27 ish, but unlikely to be well over the range unless elite bodybuilder or some obvious outlier.
rather than vague unsubstantiated claims of "many men I know" - test this theory against known men of known statistics.
For example Kyle Hartigan - I realise most of you will never have heard of him but I chose him because he has been the full back for AFL football team I follow and his stats are public record.
Full back is not the most running position so fair to assume he will be less lean runner type and more strength body type than other players.
Also fair to assume professional sports players are fit and do gym work as well as general training.
He is 194 cm tall and weighs 98 kg - gives a BMI of 26
Anyone can do this excercise with any sports player whose stats are easily found on google6 -
Also - context
Yes young fit muscly men can have BMI sightly over the range and not be carrying excess fat. if you are such a one and have a BMI of 27 ish - Highly likely this is so.
Post menopausal asian woman (hypothetical example) who does little activity with BMI of 27ish - highly unlikely.
Paper pudding -real life example. 50 year old woman lightly active and no gym work.
I'm sure both my doctor and myself and any casual observer could see my then BMI of 28 was not due to outlier level of muscle mass or any other exceptional reason - but plain old overweight.5 -
I wasn't talking about very muscular men, I gave a conservative exemple of someone who put on 10-15lbs of muscles. I already said after a year OR MORE you can gain more than that.
Also what is the threshold for someone to be well over the range of healthy bmi?
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yes - and i gave a real life example, and explained my rationale for that example. it is easily checked via google, unlike vague unsubstantiated "many people I know"
feel free to do likewise.
I have no idea how much muscle someone could realistically put on - but still highly unlikely they will be far out of BMI range by doing so.
not sure what point you are making really.5
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