Not discussed enough......
Replies
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I can barely walk. And I am someone who has been told more times than I care to remember that I need a better attitude. Simply for being realistic. Including by some really crappy doctors who just saw my weight, made a bunch of assumptions, did nothing for me - which included ignoring very real symptoms that have now made me even more disabled now than I had been before. When if they had (kitten. Is that how we do it here?) took 20 seconds and actually listened to me I would not be dealing with now for the rest of my life.
One mistake you’re making is assuming you know enough about someone based on a few forum comments to judge that they have a bad attitude. Or that the bad attitude isn’t due to something that is very real.
Attitude is important. This we agree on.
But there are other factors. Some of which really are not always under our control. That’s realistic, not a bad attitude. That’s what you don’t seem to be able to hear.
What I am saying is that if you make it all about attitude you’re definitely going to alienate some people who really have tried as hard as they are able.
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How do you define a "bad attitude" ... I've already said that a bit of anger or a lot of stress help me to lose weight. Is that a "bad attitude"?
Complacency, on the other hand, seems to assist me to maintain my weight. Is that a "bad attitude"?
As for things out of our control ...
Exercise helps us to lose weight, but it is not necessary to lose weight.
Food options can help us lose weight, but we can make do with whatever is available.
Medications can make weight loss a little bit more difficult, but we can overcome that.
However, I do have a situation which is a little bit out of my control ... and I'm trying to figure out ways around it.5 -
I want to thank you for starting up such an interesting debate. I cannot disagree with your many years experience and first hand experience of people with physical struggles that you have helped change their lives for better. I would like to comment though as this is an interesting discussion.
Attitude is not a single thing, the mind has the ability to have a relaxed attitude, positive attitude, negative attitude, indifferent attitude and threatening attitude towards many external and internal 'things' all in the same mind space at the same time.
These are my words, I am not stating anyone has directly made this point in this thread - I do not think that someone either has a good attitude or is consigned to a life of self pity and misery. I believe the mind is more complex and that people who are stuck in a rut and struggling are not there simply because of attitude. Even calling out attitude as major obstacle may be over simplifying things for those who have spent decades living the life they live and do not know there is different paths we can all take every day. How do you tell someone with mental health problems linked to obesity they simply need to sort out their attitude and all will be better.
So, it would be fair to say you have witnessed many people with a great attitude towards something that specifically changed their lives for better. These same people held other attitudes towards things at the same time as displaying the great attitude you witnessed. This life change may have built momentum in to other areas of the individuals life and has a positive impact in a wider sense. I can understand that, I lose weight, I run, I have better mental health, I am more active, I improve my overall health, I get fitter, my family love the changes in me..... then one day the wheels fall off, what happened to my attitude over night, did I change as a person, I have lost momentum, I am gaining weight etc, etc. This is a very familiar story on MFP. But at one time all these people (myself included) had a great attitude to weight loss and were willing to make life long changes. What went wrong, what was missing? This is what I am interested in, because if we answer this then we help hundreds or thousands of people understand that the wheels can fall off and they will face tough points in the journey that a good attitude simply won't be enough to get them through.
If I tell my kids the secret in life is to be happy, and then remind them that the key to getting past every obstacle is to 'be happy' I am not really doing my job as a parent. I am not sure if telling them to have a great attitude towards everything is giving them the right tools to succeed in life, it is one of the tools, but not the only tool. You are educating the people you help, I think this is the important message, that working with the right educator in any field of life has huge benefits and if the individual is focused, driven and wants to make changes then it is the prefect recipe for change.
The psychology industry would come under intense scrutiny if they tried to address every mind and behavior issue through the prism of that individual just needs a good attitude. I'm making this throwaway comparison as an example of how others could interpret a focused view on only attitude.1 -
It WILL be harder with people who progress slowly due to injury, ability, etc. And for them, it would be the easiest to give IF NOT for an attitude of tenacity, diligence, and perseverance. Many times in these forums, I see threads where people who are much heavier than average create excuses as to why they may never get to a normal weight so they concede before even trying. A defeatist attitude won't get one to where they need to. One has to just keep plugging away even with all the deterrents they may face. I personally would rather train someone who does it that way even if their results come much slower. Because in the end, they really appreciate themselves for being strong through. People that can lose fast or anytime they want aren't the ones who impress me.
I would argue that tenacity, diligence and perseverance are individual character traits, learned though nature and nurture. Liking them to a mindset is more accurate, calling them an attitude is off the mark I think. Like all mindsets they are subject to change due to hormones, chemicals, mental health, stress, alcohol, sugar intake, will power, kids behavior, life, favorite team doing well in favorite sport, partners happiness, access to financial funds, mood, individual will, collective will etc, etc, etc.
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I really think the OP has good intentions with this topic. It IS true that we can have all the knowledge and tools available and at our disposal but neither will help us get fit and improve our health if we don't use them. Somehow, we have to flip a switch within us to apply the knowledge, use the tools to make positive changes in our health.
We somehow need to find a way to keep that switch flipped. It is easy to keep that switch flipped when our hard work is reinforced with the results we are looking for.
That doesn't always happen and it isn't necessarily the fault of the person trying. There are a myriad of things outside an individual's control that can impact this.
I think it is appropriate to recognize and acknowledge that this process IS more difficult for some than others. Without the reinforcement of quick results, it is easy to get discouraged. Imagine working hard at a job for a whole week and expecting a big paycheck and only getting $1.
I think those of us who have it a bit easier would do well to acknowledge that and offer support to those who are struggling and getting discouraged rather than telling them they need changed their attitude. That might be the right thing to say to someone you know well and know just needs a kick in the pants but, for many people, that is not the right approach to take.
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Honestly, I think the crux of what the original post is about is not giving in to all of the obstacles and quitting. The “attitude” being referred to is not about having a constant happy disposition but perseverance in the face of the challenges and difficulties and continuing to pick ourselves up and try again when we stumble.
I did not read anything else into the post that pointed that attitude was the ONLY thing that matters or that everyone is supposed to be happy and positive all the time.6 -
Imagine working hard at a job for a whole week and expecting a big paycheck and only getting $1.
Unfortunately that does describe losing weight, building muscle, increasing endurance etc. all too well.
I can cycle an hour a day every day of the week, and burn a whole 2800 calories ... and that's not even a pound in the 1 lb = 3500 calories conversion.
I can lift weights all week, and have nothing but sore muscles to show for it.
I can cycling 50 km/day all week, and still may not be able to cycle 200 km in one ride.
It takes time ... and the big paycheck doesn't come for months or even years. If you stick with it.
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Imagine working hard at a job for a whole week and expecting a big paycheck and only getting $1.
Unfortunately that does describe losing weight, building muscle, increasing endurance etc. all too well.
I can cycle an hour a day every day of the week, and burn a whole 2800 calories ... and that's not even a pound in the 1 lb = 3500 calories conversion.
I can lift weights all week, and have nothing but sore muscles to show for it.
I can cycling 50 km/day all week, and still may not be able to cycle 200 km in one ride.
It takes time ... and the big paycheck doesn't come for months or even years. If you stick with it.
EXACTLY! This is why I believe that people who are getting discouraged need encouragement and support rather than be told to "suck it up". That's just my opinion.
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I don't disagree here. Though I'm an optimist, I'm also a realist. I could train and and have the most positive feeling in the world that I could dunk a basketball.........and that likely won't ever happen based on my height and leaping ability. When my mom was in the hospital with pneumonia and broken ribs, I wasn't negative, but I wasn't positive she was going to make it through it either. So I hear where you're coming from.I want to thank you for starting up such an interesting debate. I cannot disagree with your many years experience and first hand experience of people with physical struggles that you have helped change their lives for better. I would like to comment though as this is an interesting discussion.
Attitude is not a single thing, the mind has the ability to have a relaxed attitude, positive attitude, negative attitude, indifferent attitude and threatening attitude towards many external and internal 'things' all in the same mind space at the same time.
Well I believe how we think about things develops over time and many get consigned to it. If someone always believes they'll never succeed, it does carry over to just about every aspect in their life. Now I'm mostly referring to people who don't have any mental illness, but to people who are sound of mind but because they haven't found success in their life somewhere, they may also believe that they can't succeed at weight loss. Finding at what may be holding them back and showing them encouragement in small successes can really do wonders. I have clients who I've had for more than 7 years still training with me not because they have to, but because I apparently help to bring the positive factor out in them. They still deal with negative things in their daily lives I'm sure.These are my words, I am not stating anyone has directly made this point in this thread - I do not think that someone either has a good attitude or is consigned to a life of self pity and misery. I believe the mind is more complex and that people who are stuck in a rut and struggling are not there simply because of attitude. Even calling out attitude as major obstacle may be over simplifying things for those who have spent decades living the life they live and do not know there is different paths we can all take every day. How do you tell someone with mental health problems linked to obesity they simply need to sort out their attitude and all will be better.
IMO I believe what happens is complacency. Many times when one has a goal, then reaches it it becomes "now what do I do?" There are also people that can do the same thing year in an year out, but one day they injure themselves and can't do what their routine is. Now where they used to burn so many calories a day and can't do it, but still continue to eat the same way OR more, weight gain happens and then self doubt, fear, depression, etc. can set in. Depending if it's recognized and how it's handled, some make adjustments while others go the opposite direction. Part of what I do with former clients is just to sent a quick "how you doing?" note to them occasionally just to see if they've fallen off the wagon and need direction again. I personally believe that we should always have a small goal to strive for. It doesn't ever have to be epic. Just one of improvement in any aspect of one's life they desire.So, it would be fair to say you have witnessed many people with a great attitude towards something that specifically changed their lives for better. These same people held other attitudes towards things at the same time as displaying the great attitude you witnessed. This life change may have built momentum in to other areas of the individuals life and has a positive impact in a wider sense. I can understand that, I lose weight, I run, I have better mental health, I am more active, I improve my overall health, I get fitter, my family love the changes in me..... then one day the wheels fall off, what happened to my attitude over night, did I change as a person, I have lost momentum, I am gaining weight etc, etc. This is a very familiar story on MFP. But at one time all these people (myself included) had a great attitude to weight loss and were willing to make life long changes. What went wrong, what was missing? This is what I am interested in, because if we answer this then we help hundreds or thousands of people understand that the wheels can fall off and they will face tough points in the journey that a good attitude simply won't be enough to get them through.
Thanks. I do believe in spreading knowledge and help around. Knowledge isn't really anything great unless you share it right?If I tell my kids the secret in life is to be happy, and then remind them that the key to getting past every obstacle is to 'be happy' I am not really doing my job as a parent. I am not sure if telling them to have a great attitude towards everything is giving them the right tools to succeed in life, it is one of the tools, but not the only tool. You are educating the people you help, I think this is the important message, that working with the right educator in any field of life has huge benefits and if the individual is focused, driven and wants to make changes then it is the prefect recipe for change.
People are complex. I know that. I've seen many people who are great in the gym, perfect in eating, and have great attitudes while there, but fail with communication with people or have crummy marriages (a lot of my clients are former divorcees getting in shape for dating again). Where one's attitude might be great in one arena, it may not be in another. My whole purpose for this thread is directly related to weight loss/gain/maintenance because that's what we do here. And with all the opining I've done over the years, I've dealt with people with many different attitudes. What I will say here is that the most helpful people on this forum are pretty positive. They look to always helping others although sometimes it may be construed as negative feedback by the person asking (IE: when a person is losing weight eating 800 calories a day and then being told that they aren't eating enough).The psychology industry would come under intense scrutiny if they tried to address every mind and behavior issue through the prism of that individual just needs a good attitude. I'm making this throwaway comparison as an example of how others could interpret a focused view on only attitude.
My hope here is that people that are struggling with weight loss or not hitting goals, don't develop an attitude of defeat and that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
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You can't succeed if you don't: a-) start, b-) try, c-) keep going.
I think that's all this really is and it isn't weight loss specific. I'm a recovering (some days are better than others) perfectionist. Go big or go home. Do it well or don't bother doing it at all. If you (i) am not first, you (I) am last. No gray area, no between, in anything. I was like this up until probably the last... 5-6 years of my life, and I'm in my mid 40s.
This is a CRAPPY ATTITUDE for accomplishing ANY DANGED THING EVER. It's self-defeating and it is miserable. It leads directly to being discouraged and quitting.
How I got over that is a whole different post no one here cares about, because it had nothing at all to do with weight loss. The point is that if I went into weight loss before I'd gotten my head right about this kind of stuff I would have quit 2 months in.
I'm not saying it's easy; it isn't. I'm not saying that everyone has that particular hurdle; they don't. I'm not saying that people don't have reason to struggle; they do.
But there is some truth in the OP and that truth is basically that you have to do the mental work to succeed at basically anything that is long term self-improvement and that's exactly what weight loss is.
You have to know yourself, be objective enough to see where YOUR problems are and work out (with support from a professional or just friends or even internally) how to either work through or around them.
Is that attitude? I dunno. I'm not a 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps/suck it up' person at all.
But quitting and succeeding ARE mutually exclusive, regardless of the reason you quit.5 -
Or someone who may feel they've done all they can see this and ask themselves "is there something else I can do?"MargaretYakoda wrote: »I can barely walk. And I am someone who has been told more times than I care to remember that I need a better attitude. Simply for being realistic. Including by some really crappy doctors who just saw my weight, made a bunch of assumptions, did nothing for me - which included ignoring very real symptoms that have now made me even more disabled now than I had been before. When if they had (kitten. Is that how we do it here?) took 20 seconds and actually listened to me I would not be dealing with now for the rest of my life.
One mistake you’re making is assuming you know enough about someone based on a few forum comments to judge that they have a bad attitude. Or that the bad attitude isn’t due to something that is very real.
Attitude is important. This we agree on.
But there are other factors. Some of which really are not always under our control. That’s realistic, not a bad attitude. That’s what you don’t seem to be able to hear.
What I am saying is that if you make it all about attitude you’re definitely going to alienate some people who really have tried as hard as they are able.
Because there always is. And if that information is given to them and they start succeeding, don't you think their attitude could change about how they feel from prior?
I'm not saying it's all just about attitude. I've had people that were positive, upbeat, enthusiastic, etc. but lacked consistency and discipline and flat out failed. And I've had people who came in with a lot of doubt, but were steadfast in their commitment to the process and succeed. One doesn't have to be like me in attitude. They just have to have the attitude that they have the ability to succeed. That's the intention here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Or someone who may feel they've done all they can see this and ask themselves "is there something else I can do?"MargaretYakoda wrote: »I can barely walk. And I am someone who has been told more times than I care to remember that I need a better attitude. Simply for being realistic. Including by some really crappy doctors who just saw my weight, made a bunch of assumptions, did nothing for me - which included ignoring very real symptoms that have now made me even more disabled now than I had been before. When if they had (kitten. Is that how we do it here?) took 20 seconds and actually listened to me I would not be dealing with now for the rest of my life.
One mistake you’re making is assuming you know enough about someone based on a few forum comments to judge that they have a bad attitude. Or that the bad attitude isn’t due to something that is very real.
Attitude is important. This we agree on.
But there are other factors. Some of which really are not always under our control. That’s realistic, not a bad attitude. That’s what you don’t seem to be able to hear.
What I am saying is that if you make it all about attitude you’re definitely going to alienate some people who really have tried as hard as they are able.
Because there always is. And if that information is given to them and they start succeeding, don't you think their attitude could change about how they feel from prior?
I'm not saying it's all just about attitude. I've had people that were positive, upbeat, enthusiastic, etc. but lacked consistency and discipline and flat out failed. And I've had people who came in with a lot of doubt, but were steadfast in their commitment to the process and succeed. One doesn't have to be like me in attitude. They just have to have the attitude that they have the ability to succeed. That's the intention here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Again.
No.
Sometimes there really isn’t anything else left to try.
I am saying this as a disabled person. There really are some instances where there’s nothing left to try. Or if there is, it’s out of reach.
If I couldn’t afford my NuStep? I’d be in trouble. Especially considering the medical neglect I’ve experienced from doctors who only saw me as fat and lazy.
And it’s not a bad attitude to acknowledge it.
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Then we differ in opinion. I wish you good luck though. Hope you find your solution.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Or someone who may feel they've done all they can see this and ask themselves "is there something else I can do?"MargaretYakoda wrote: »I can barely walk. And I am someone who has been told more times than I care to remember that I need a better attitude. Simply for being realistic. Including by some really crappy doctors who just saw my weight, made a bunch of assumptions, did nothing for me - which included ignoring very real symptoms that have now made me even more disabled now than I had been before. When if they had (kitten. Is that how we do it here?) took 20 seconds and actually listened to me I would not be dealing with now for the rest of my life.
One mistake you’re making is assuming you know enough about someone based on a few forum comments to judge that they have a bad attitude. Or that the bad attitude isn’t due to something that is very real.
Attitude is important. This we agree on.
But there are other factors. Some of which really are not always under our control. That’s realistic, not a bad attitude. That’s what you don’t seem to be able to hear.
What I am saying is that if you make it all about attitude you’re definitely going to alienate some people who really have tried as hard as they are able.
Because there always is. And if that information is given to them and they start succeeding, don't you think their attitude could change about how they feel from prior?
I'm not saying it's all just about attitude. I've had people that were positive, upbeat, enthusiastic, etc. but lacked consistency and discipline and flat out failed. And I've had people who came in with a lot of doubt, but were steadfast in their commitment to the process and succeed. One doesn't have to be like me in attitude. They just have to have the attitude that they have the ability to succeed. That's the intention here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Again.
No.
Sometimes there really isn’t anything else left to try.
I am saying this as a disabled person. There really are some instances where there’s nothing left to try. Or if there is, it’s out of reach.
If I couldn’t afford my NuStep? I’d be in trouble. Especially considering the medical neglect I’ve experienced from doctors who only saw me as fat and lazy.
And it’s not a bad attitude to acknowledge it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Then we differ in opinion. I wish you good luck though. Hope you find your solution.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Or someone who may feel they've done all they can see this and ask themselves "is there something else I can do?"MargaretYakoda wrote: »I can barely walk. And I am someone who has been told more times than I care to remember that I need a better attitude. Simply for being realistic. Including by some really crappy doctors who just saw my weight, made a bunch of assumptions, did nothing for me - which included ignoring very real symptoms that have now made me even more disabled now than I had been before. When if they had (kitten. Is that how we do it here?) took 20 seconds and actually listened to me I would not be dealing with now for the rest of my life.
One mistake you’re making is assuming you know enough about someone based on a few forum comments to judge that they have a bad attitude. Or that the bad attitude isn’t due to something that is very real.
Attitude is important. This we agree on.
But there are other factors. Some of which really are not always under our control. That’s realistic, not a bad attitude. That’s what you don’t seem to be able to hear.
What I am saying is that if you make it all about attitude you’re definitely going to alienate some people who really have tried as hard as they are able.
Because there always is. And if that information is given to them and they start succeeding, don't you think their attitude could change about how they feel from prior?
I'm not saying it's all just about attitude. I've had people that were positive, upbeat, enthusiastic, etc. but lacked consistency and discipline and flat out failed. And I've had people who came in with a lot of doubt, but were steadfast in their commitment to the process and succeed. One doesn't have to be like me in attitude. They just have to have the attitude that they have the ability to succeed. That's the intention here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Again.
No.
Sometimes there really isn’t anything else left to try.
I am saying this as a disabled person. There really are some instances where there’s nothing left to try. Or if there is, it’s out of reach.
If I couldn’t afford my NuStep? I’d be in trouble. Especially considering the medical neglect I’ve experienced from doctors who only saw me as fat and lazy.
And it’s not a bad attitude to acknowledge it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
OK. We definitely differ in opinion.
And if you had listened to me you would have known that I’m doing fine on my health and weight loss journey.
I do hear what you’re saying. I am not completely dismissing the role of attitude. I’m just saying it isn’t everything.
Taking a slightly different tack: Budgeting.
I use a program called YNAB. It’s brilliant because it always grounds the person in their financial reality.
On financial forums sometimes people will ask a question that indicates they’re in a real desperate financial state.
Usually the advice is to cut back this, and cut back that, etc. All good advice, generally.
But sometimes there isn’t anything left to cut. It’s just a reality for some. Especially disabled people.
The solution isn’t to just have a positive attitude (although yes, it helps). There might not be a solution. The solution really might be bankruptcy. Or some other really super drastic move, like living in your car (been there, done that)
And when a person is in a desperate situation like that? No amount of telling someone they have a negative attitude is going to help. There’s only so many restaurant meals and extravagant items a person can cut from their budget.
Similarly with diets. And it’s very important to encourage people who are in this position, not tell them their attitude is a problem.
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Adding to my above comment: Some of the weight I am currently carrying comes from the time I was living in my car and relying on community meals to survive. It’s often a LOT of pasta or potatoes. Which aren’t the devil if eaten in moderation. But combined with my balance disorder? Really really didn’t help. And there wasn’t very much I could do about it at the time. For real.
How I got out of that situation was pure luck. Nothing else.3 -
Attitude is important but in the beginning, it’s common to feel like “I can’t do this!” What worked for me was first creating a habit. Once I created a habit and started to feel better, then my attitude shifted in a positive direction!!! This varies by person. So if someone is struggling with being positive, try this approach and just keep going!!!5
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