Vegan issues
Replies
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
I know you mean well, but if someone has a serious medical condition like iron deficiency CAST IRON WILL NOT HELP. I'm anemic despite cooking with cast iron pans all my life. While you might get a little extra iron this way, that's only if you are using the pan in non-standard ways.3 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »A cast iron pan will help boost your iron, I believe.
I just wanted to send you well-wishes in finding the cause so you can correct what's going on. And also to thank you for bringing this up and sharing because my dd is completely vegan so it gives me concern for her. I'll have to see if she takes any vitamins or supplements.
Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
Save your money - see my last post.0 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
I know you mean well, but if someone has a serious medical condition like iron deficiency CAST IRON WILL NOT HELP. I'm anemic despite cooking with cast iron pans all my life. While you might get a little extra iron this way, that's only if you are using the pan in non-standard ways.
This is fair. I did mean the suggestion as “in addition to” and not as the sole solution to low iron.3 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
There's conflicting reports over whether or not cooking with cast iron will leech extra iron into your food or even whether it's a healthy thing if it does. On the bright side, if you scroll over the nutrients, like iron, in Cronometer it will show you what foods are high in that nutrient. Using those foods, combined with a women's multivitamin, would probably be the most sure route until you can see a doctor.
Oh I think it is a great little app, it has been an education. I have used multivitamins before but I found that the one I used didn't have half the amount of "supplement" as if I was to have brought them separately, I that makes sense, so I have just bought them individually.
Don't supplement with a stand-alone iron supplement without your doctor's advice, as they tend to have several multiples of the RDA, and your body does not flush excess iron the way it does water-soluble vitamins.
What does Cronometer say about your vitamin C consumption? Your body needs vitamin C to help it use iron. And you don't have to worry about excess vitamin C, as it's water-soluble.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
I would absolutely love to have my own chickens but for different reasons than to eat thier eggs, I'd probably sell the eggs and play with the chickens, they would be great fun to have around, they are so intelligent. Unfortunately where I live I wouldn't be allowed to own them.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
There's conflicting reports over whether or not cooking with cast iron will leech extra iron into your food or even whether it's a healthy thing if it does. On the bright side, if you scroll over the nutrients, like iron, in Cronometer it will show you what foods are high in that nutrient. Using those foods, combined with a women's multivitamin, would probably be the most sure route until you can see a doctor.
Oh I think it is a great little app, it has been an education. I have used multivitamins before but I found that the one I used didn't have half the amount of "supplement" as if I was to have brought them separately, I that makes sense, so I have just bought them individually.
Don't supplement with a stand-alone iron supplement without your doctor's advice, as they tend to have several multiples of the RDA, and your body does not flush excess iron the way it does water-soluble vitamins.
What does Cronometer say about your vitamin C consumption? Your body needs vitamin C to help it use iron. And you don't have to worry about excess vitamin C, as it's water-soluble.
I only downloaded the app yesterday and inserted my food and vitamin c was 424% so I'd say a good amount. I just wanted to get the ball rolling as it is going to take a good few weeks for the GP to refer me to have the blood test and then they possibly could say no to me having a test. I am just going by my previous history, just for reference my iron was 37%, 6.6 out of 18mg, not so good.1 -
I knew a vegan who wasn’t supplementing B12 and became deficient. I have also known a few with iron deficiency. However, I know many vegans and most don’t have these issues. Most patients I see in the ER with anemia are people with a regular diet, by far. I was almost entirely plant based for a while and didn’t have any issues. Your problems could be due to many things aside from diet. It would be good if your doctor could check basic labs along with thyroid panel, vitamin D, B12, folic acid levels, and whatever else they feel would be useful. Please update us!6
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I knew a vegan who wasn’t supplementing B12 and became deficient. I have also known a few with iron deficiency. However, I know many vegans and most don’t have these issues. Most patients I see in the ER with anemia are people with a regular diet, by far. I was almost entirely plant based for a while and didn’t have any issues. Your problems could be due to many things aside from diet. It would be good if your doctor could check basic labs along with thyroid panel, vitamin D, B12, folic acid levels, and whatever else they feel would be useful. Please update us!
Originally way back when I first became vegan and I subtle little things happen I put it down to stress, getting older, children, just life, I didn't even think of it until I had my blood checked and that's when the b12 and iron deficiencies was raised which was a shock. I was a long time vegetarian before so didn't think anything of it.
It is entirely up to my doctor if I have bloods taken but I will try pushing for it. As I said before I had an iron infusion and was tested it came back normal and was told they didn't need to do anymore, it's going to be normal after having an infusion.
I will definitely update, I'm just a bit miffed I have to wait 2 weeks for a telephone appointment with my doctor 🤨2 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
There's conflicting reports over whether or not cooking with cast iron will leech extra iron into your food or even whether it's a healthy thing if it does. On the bright side, if you scroll over the nutrients, like iron, in Cronometer it will show you what foods are high in that nutrient. Using those foods, combined with a women's multivitamin, would probably be the most sure route until you can see a doctor.
Oh I think it is a great little app, it has been an education. I have used multivitamins before but I found that the one I used didn't have half the amount of "supplement" as if I was to have brought them separately, I that makes sense, so I have just bought them individually.
Don't supplement with a stand-alone iron supplement without your doctor's advice, as they tend to have several multiples of the RDA, and your body does not flush excess iron the way it does water-soluble vitamins.
What does Cronometer say about your vitamin C consumption? Your body needs vitamin C to help it use iron. And you don't have to worry about excess vitamin C, as it's water-soluble.
I only downloaded the app yesterday and inserted my food and vitamin c was 424% so I'd say a good amount. I just wanted to get the ball rolling as it is going to take a good few weeks for the GP to refer me to have the blood test and then they possibly could say no to me having a test. I am just going by my previous history, just for reference my iron was 37%, 6.6 out of 18mg, not so good.
What did your protein come out as?0 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
There's conflicting reports over whether or not cooking with cast iron will leech extra iron into your food or even whether it's a healthy thing if it does. On the bright side, if you scroll over the nutrients, like iron, in Cronometer it will show you what foods are high in that nutrient. Using those foods, combined with a women's multivitamin, would probably be the most sure route until you can see a doctor.
Oh I think it is a great little app, it has been an education. I have used multivitamins before but I found that the one I used didn't have half the amount of "supplement" as if I was to have brought them separately, I that makes sense, so I have just bought them individually.
Don't supplement with a stand-alone iron supplement without your doctor's advice, as they tend to have several multiples of the RDA, and your body does not flush excess iron the way it does water-soluble vitamins.
What does Cronometer say about your vitamin C consumption? Your body needs vitamin C to help it use iron. And you don't have to worry about excess vitamin C, as it's water-soluble.
I only downloaded the app yesterday and inserted my food and vitamin c was 424% so I'd say a good amount. I just wanted to get the ball rolling as it is going to take a good few weeks for the GP to refer me to have the blood test and then they possibly could say no to me having a test. I am just going by my previous history, just for reference my iron was 37%, 6.6 out of 18mg, not so good.
What did your protein come out as?
Protein was 81.5 out of 107.1g, 76% not great but not to bad I don't think I'm not sure?0 -
oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »Oh that is interesting, I will invest in one of those.
Thank you, that is so kind, hopefully if the GP allows me to have a blood test things might seem clearer. I hope your dd is not experiencing any of the issues I have been having but I have to say after a bit of searching this morning I have come across a great little app called Cronometer where you put your food in pretty much like here but it brings up every single nutritional value and I was absolutely shocked how much I have been lacking, however much I thought I was eating healthy, which I have been, it has just highlighted I needed more, a lot more, such a handy, great app, you can even put the supplements you take in in it.
There's conflicting reports over whether or not cooking with cast iron will leech extra iron into your food or even whether it's a healthy thing if it does. On the bright side, if you scroll over the nutrients, like iron, in Cronometer it will show you what foods are high in that nutrient. Using those foods, combined with a women's multivitamin, would probably be the most sure route until you can see a doctor.
Oh I think it is a great little app, it has been an education. I have used multivitamins before but I found that the one I used didn't have half the amount of "supplement" as if I was to have brought them separately, I that makes sense, so I have just bought them individually.
Don't supplement with a stand-alone iron supplement without your doctor's advice, as they tend to have several multiples of the RDA, and your body does not flush excess iron the way it does water-soluble vitamins.
What does Cronometer say about your vitamin C consumption? Your body needs vitamin C to help it use iron. And you don't have to worry about excess vitamin C, as it's water-soluble.
I only downloaded the app yesterday and inserted my food and vitamin c was 424% so I'd say a good amount. I just wanted to get the ball rolling as it is going to take a good few weeks for the GP to refer me to have the blood test and then they possibly could say no to me having a test. I am just going by my previous history, just for reference my iron was 37%, 6.6 out of 18mg, not so good.
What did your protein come out as?
Protein was 81.5 out of 107.1g, 76% not great but not to bad I don't think I'm not sure?
That isn't too bad. 107g is probably a good target to work towards.0 -
I knew a vegan who wasn’t supplementing B12 and became deficient. I have also known a few with iron deficiency. However, I know many vegans and most don’t have these issues. Most patients I see in the ER with anemia are people with a regular diet, by far. I was almost entirely plant based for a while and didn’t have any issues. Your problems could be due to many things aside from diet. It would be good if your doctor could check basic labs along with thyroid panel, vitamin D, B12, folic acid levels, and whatever else they feel would be useful. Please update us!
This is a very good point. Just as some doctors when they see an obese patient default to thinking any health issue is due to obesity, to the point of not testing for other things that they would test for in a healthy-weight patient with the same symptoms, I suspect some may assume when they see a vegan patient that any medical issue is due to the diet, to the point of not testing for other things that they would test for in a meat-eating patient with the same symptoms.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I knew a vegan who wasn’t supplementing B12 and became deficient. I have also known a few with iron deficiency. However, I know many vegans and most don’t have these issues. Most patients I see in the ER with anemia are people with a regular diet, by far. I was almost entirely plant based for a while and didn’t have any issues. Your problems could be due to many things aside from diet. It would be good if your doctor could check basic labs along with thyroid panel, vitamin D, B12, folic acid levels, and whatever else they feel would be useful. Please update us!
This is a very good point. Just as some doctors when they see an obese patient default to thinking any health issue is due to obesity, to the point of not testing for other things that they would test for in a healthy-weight patient with the same symptoms, I suspect some may assume when they see a vegan patient that any medical issue is due to the diet, to the point of not testing for other things that they would test for in a meat-eating patient with the same symptoms.
It is true! My mum who eats meat has iron and b12 deficiencies and gets tested regularly and b12 shots every month and has numerous test to see why she is deficient but like you said go and say you're vegan that's it it's your diet and just test the basic or not at all, just pop an iron pill and you'll be right. It's so frustrating so other than saying nothing about being vegan I'm just going to get no blood test or just the basic iron and b12.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
I know you mean well, but if someone has a serious medical condition like iron deficiency CAST IRON WILL NOT HELP. I'm anemic despite cooking with cast iron pans all my life. While you might get a little extra iron this way, that's only if you are using the pan in non-standard ways.
I've read that if you're using a pan that is properly seasoned, then you're not going to get very much iron from it at all. I don't know if there any studies on the topic, but I personally wouldn't count on getting any iron from this cooking method.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
I know you mean well, but if someone has a serious medical condition like iron deficiency CAST IRON WILL NOT HELP. I'm anemic despite cooking with cast iron pans all my life. While you might get a little extra iron this way, that's only if you are using the pan in non-standard ways.
I've read that if you're using a pan that is properly seasoned, then you're not going to get very much iron from it at all. I don't know if there any studies on the topic, but I personally wouldn't count on getting any iron from this cooking method.
From experience, I suspect that's true.
I'm a cast-iron-pan lover, believer in keeping them properly seasoned. "Seasoned" IME amounts to a coating. A well-seasoned pan doesn't rust - at least not quickly - as a non-seasoned pan will.
Cooking high-acid liquid-y foods in the pan can break through the seasoning, probably release some iron (iron pans + acid foods are a more iron-releasing combo, abstractly, vs. non-acid foods). Washing the pans with soap or using harsh scrubbers (like Brillo or steel wool, etc.) will remove the coating, or keep it so thin that there's breakthrough during cooking.
If there's iron wanted to be had from cooking in cast iron, then keeping it well-scrubbed and using it for high-acid foods (like tomato sauce) would be the way to maximize the effect. It will also eliminate the non-stick advantage of cast iron, and the pans are very likely to rust between uses.
There's got to be an easier, better way to get dietary iron.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I assume the implication is that if chicks are more or less equally male and female, but buyers overwhelmingly want females, the males tend to be dealt a cruel fate?4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I assume the implication is that if chicks are more or less equally male and female, but buyers overwhelmingly want females, the males tend to be dealt a cruel fate?
Good point. I took "them" to be referring to the hens (chickens) for some reason, but in re-reading, roosters does seem to be the natural antecedent.0
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