Frozen Shoulder — Getting Back into Intensive Workouts
Replies
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Alinouveau2 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »
I find that odd advice. I know a guy that is a pretty famous Physical Therapist. He's worked out frozen shoulders in one or two sessions. But one of the things that makes it harder (according to him, at least) is lack of movement. The more someone doesn't move the shoulder, it seems the more "frozen" it gets. And this guy has worked on a ton of very famous athletes, including pros in football, baseball and basketball (like some of the top athletes in the world). To be honest, I don't trust everything surgeons say.
This guy, I'm referring to, has several licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy).
I’m in PT school right now, and learned about this recently. First off, every case is different. Secondly, it’s true that if you don’t move it, the more frozen it will become, however, once it’s frozen you can’t thaw it be the body has to go through the process on its own. In the thawing phase is where PT can do the most good, but even then you have to increase the ROM without causing damage. If someone can “work out” a frozen shoulder in a session or two then it wasn’t really a frozen shoulder.
I don't know of anyone else that can do what this guy can do. He has saved many careers, including a former Cy Young runner up (and starting pitcher in an All-Star game) and worked on an NBA MVP, as well as working on the guy that just won the Badwater 135. Everyone in the professional sports world knows of this guy. And what he does is very unique.
What I've learned about medical professionals is if they can't personally do it, it's "impossible". They keep the realm of possibility into whatever they personally can charge for.
I really can't believe nobody else can do what he does. I have gone to a very well known PT who is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. He sees clients (all the way from the pro/Olympic athletes to the regular Joe's) 3-4 days a week, he has an intern most of the time working with him, learning his methods
The other days he writes, does seminars, etc. passing on his methods. Can't believe the guy you're talking about is keeping his knowledge under a basket and not training others.
He is not a traditional PT. He's has around 15 licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy). He uses the Niel-Asher Technique, according to his website. But I've also been to many others that specialize in ART and can't do what he does. And this guy is barely even on the internet. He worked with the entire UK basketball team the year they won the National Championship and had like 6 NBA players. Word spread from there. He also worked with a Reds pitcher that had back issues for two years and got him back on the mound at a high level. After that, he didn't need to advertise or be on the internet.
What it comes down to is there are two veins of physical therapists. One for athletes and those that have a great deal of pain tolerance and those for everyone else.
I'm going to agree with the last statement.
I've had 6 shoulder operations and both thumb joints replaced, all by the same doctor and all using his in-house rehab facility. I was told by a friend before the first surgery to ask the PT to rehab you as close as they can to an athlete or someone whose career depended on the particular body part working well, i.e. screw the pain and be aggressive as you can with the rehab without doing harm.
I told this to the PT the first time and he said sure thing, let's get after this. He said he was quite a bit more aggressive with me than typical because pain didn't seem to bother me. Said my recovery as a 50+ year old was like the college athletes he worked with.
I had a shoulder repaired in 2019. My surgeon is the one for our local pro sports teams and I guess because I like to be athletic and was considered young he gave me a very aggressive rehab protocol. My PT would shake her head saying how can he expect this...I fell behind one week and then just made it my job to work at it and when I was going for my 3 month check up my PT sent me away saying he should be pleased.... he was and I got cleared to go back to all my sports (I had already given myself permission for one).
If you can tolerate an aggressive recovery protocol then it does make life way easier but you do have to be willing to work. No PT is a magician and can magically repair something in a couple of treatments...even for an athlete.
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »Alinouveau2 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »
I find that odd advice. I know a guy that is a pretty famous Physical Therapist. He's worked out frozen shoulders in one or two sessions. But one of the things that makes it harder (according to him, at least) is lack of movement. The more someone doesn't move the shoulder, it seems the more "frozen" it gets. And this guy has worked on a ton of very famous athletes, including pros in football, baseball and basketball (like some of the top athletes in the world). To be honest, I don't trust everything surgeons say.
This guy, I'm referring to, has several licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy).
I’m in PT school right now, and learned about this recently. First off, every case is different. Secondly, it’s true that if you don’t move it, the more frozen it will become, however, once it’s frozen you can’t thaw it be the body has to go through the process on its own. In the thawing phase is where PT can do the most good, but even then you have to increase the ROM without causing damage. If someone can “work out” a frozen shoulder in a session or two then it wasn’t really a frozen shoulder.
I don't know of anyone else that can do what this guy can do. He has saved many careers, including a former Cy Young runner up (and starting pitcher in an All-Star game) and worked on an NBA MVP, as well as working on the guy that just won the Badwater 135. Everyone in the professional sports world knows of this guy. And what he does is very unique.
What I've learned about medical professionals is if they can't personally do it, it's "impossible". They keep the realm of possibility into whatever they personally can charge for.
I really can't believe nobody else can do what he does. I have gone to a very well known PT who is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. He sees clients (all the way from the pro/Olympic athletes to the regular Joe's) 3-4 days a week, he has an intern most of the time working with him, learning his methods
The other days he writes, does seminars, etc. passing on his methods. Can't believe the guy you're talking about is keeping his knowledge under a basket and not training others.
He is not a traditional PT. He's has around 15 licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy). He uses the Niel-Asher Technique, according to his website. But I've also been to many others that specialize in ART and can't do what he does. And this guy is barely even on the internet. He worked with the entire UK basketball team the year they won the National Championship and had like 6 NBA players. Word spread from there. He also worked with a Reds pitcher that had back issues for two years and got him back on the mound at a high level. After that, he didn't need to advertise or be on the internet.
What it comes down to is there are two veins of physical therapists. One for athletes and those that have a great deal of pain tolerance and those for everyone else.
I'm going to agree with the last statement.
I've had 6 shoulder operations and both thumb joints replaced, all by the same doctor and all using his in-house rehab facility. I was told by a friend before the first surgery to ask the PT to rehab you as close as they can to an athlete or someone whose career depended on the particular body part working well, i.e. screw the pain and be aggressive as you can with the rehab without doing harm.
I told this to the PT the first time and he said sure thing, let's get after this. He said he was quite a bit more aggressive with me than typical because pain didn't seem to bother me. Said my recovery as a 50+ year old was like the college athletes he worked with.
I had a shoulder repaired in 2019. My surgeon is the one for our local pro sports teams and I guess because I like to be athletic and was considered young he gave me a very aggressive rehab protocol. My PT would shake her head saying how can he expect this...I fell behind one week and then just made it my job to work at it and when I was going for my 3 month check up my PT sent me away saying he should be pleased.... he was and I got cleared to go back to all my sports (I had already given myself permission for one).
If you can tolerate an aggressive recovery protocol then it does make life way easier but you do have to be willing to work. No PT is a magician and can magically repair something in a couple of treatments...even for an athlete.
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
It depends on the phase you are in. In the hurtful phase (where you can't sleep at night because every little move wakes you up), you can get cortico-steriods infiltrations (not sure if that is a correct translation - English is not my first language) and they help a ton with pain if applied correctly. I don't think that the choice of PT or not, is taken on basis of the patient being pain intolerant or not as the manipulations can be done a few days after an infiltration, but rather on the healing capacity of the facia. I don't think that if you can take the pain, the whole ordeal will be over more rapidly.
In the third phase - the thaw - that's were PT can come in. In that phase the pain has subsided unless you push through. The latest studies (which I didn't read, but my surgeon did) show that if aggressive PT is used at that stage it actually doesn't guarantee a shorter recovery time, on the contrary. Given the experience that I had with the first one, and the confirmation of other patients and of the surgeon and the PT I spoke to, I'm glad to have taken the patience route. I now have enough ROM to basically do 80% of what I want to do, and I get around the other 20% with shortcuts (except planking and push-ups), but I don't have to spend hours in the PT's office every week, fearing I'll pass out.
In the end, every patient needs to find what works for them, as long as it is well informed.
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We agree on everything likely except the steroid/cortisone injections. I'm not a fan of those. One of those ruined my wife's foot permanently. She has foot pad atrophy caused by a bad cortisone injection when a doc was having a bad day.
I know they help some a lot. Actually, ironically, that's what got my wife started on her Fibromyalgia relief -- cortisone injections to free up her tender pain points. From there we were all natural relief but those got her through the early days.0 -
I have found increasing my potassium and magnesium to be very helpful. In addition to stretches I keep it warm throughout the night and reduce inflammation with Ginger daily.0
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MikePfirrman wrote: »
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
I’m sorry, but a frozen shoulder is not a fascia problem. You cannot fix a frozen shoulder by addressing fascia. There is a surgical procedure that can be done called “manipulation under anesthesia” where you can go to an orthopedic surgeon and they put you under, then forcibly move the arm through the complete ROM, but that’s done very rarely.
Protocol may vary based on the patient, PT and physician, but in the freezing stage all you can do is try to limit the impairment. In the frozen stage, do all you can to maintain your ROM, and in the thawing stage, as mentioned probably half a dozen times above in this thread, is where ROM can be restored and improved.
PTs work according to evidence based practice, and current evidence dictates frozen shoulder treatment as well as the timeline.2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Alinouveau2 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »
I find that odd advice. I know a guy that is a pretty famous Physical Therapist. He's worked out frozen shoulders in one or two sessions. But one of the things that makes it harder (according to him, at least) is lack of movement. The more someone doesn't move the shoulder, it seems the more "frozen" it gets. And this guy has worked on a ton of very famous athletes, including pros in football, baseball and basketball (like some of the top athletes in the world). To be honest, I don't trust everything surgeons say.
This guy, I'm referring to, has several licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy).
I’m in PT school right now, and learned about this recently. First off, every case is different. Secondly, it’s true that if you don’t move it, the more frozen it will become, however, once it’s frozen you can’t thaw it be the body has to go through the process on its own. In the thawing phase is where PT can do the most good, but even then you have to increase the ROM without causing damage. If someone can “work out” a frozen shoulder in a session or two then it wasn’t really a frozen shoulder.
I don't know of anyone else that can do what this guy can do. He has saved many careers, including a former Cy Young runner up (and starting pitcher in an All-Star game) and worked on an NBA MVP, as well as working on the guy that just won the Badwater 135. Everyone in the professional sports world knows of this guy. And what he does is very unique.
What I've learned about medical professionals is if they can't personally do it, it's "impossible". They keep the realm of possibility into whatever they personally can charge for.
I really can't believe nobody else can do what he does. I have gone to a very well known PT who is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. He sees clients (all the way from the pro/Olympic athletes to the regular Joe's) 3-4 days a week, he has an intern most of the time working with him, learning his methods
The other days he writes, does seminars, etc. passing on his methods. Can't believe the guy you're talking about is keeping his knowledge under a basket and not training others.
He is not a traditional PT. He's has around 15 licenses in ART (Active Release Therapy). He uses the Niel-Asher Technique, according to his website. But I've also been to many others that specialize in ART and can't do what he does. And this guy is barely even on the internet. He worked with the entire UK basketball team the year they won the National Championship and had like 6 NBA players. Word spread from there. He also worked with a Reds pitcher that had back issues for two years and got him back on the mound at a high level. After that, he didn't need to advertise or be on the internet.
What it comes down to is there are two veins of physical therapists. One for athletes and those that have a great deal of pain tolerance and those for everyone else.
I'm going to agree with the last statement.
I've had 6 shoulder operations and both thumb joints replaced, all by the same doctor and all using his in-house rehab facility. I was told by a friend before the first surgery to ask the PT to rehab you as close as they can to an athlete or someone whose career depended on the particular body part working well, i.e. screw the pain and be aggressive as you can with the rehab without doing harm.
I told this to the PT the first time and he said sure thing, let's get after this. He said he was quite a bit more aggressive with me than typical because pain didn't seem to bother me. Said my recovery as a 50+ year old was like the college athletes he worked with.
I had a shoulder repaired in 2019. My surgeon is the one for our local pro sports teams and I guess because I like to be athletic and was considered young he gave me a very aggressive rehab protocol. My PT would shake her head saying how can he expect this...I fell behind one week and then just made it my job to work at it and when I was going for my 3 month check up my PT sent me away saying he should be pleased.... he was and I got cleared to go back to all my sports (I had already given myself permission for one).
If you can tolerate an aggressive recovery protocol then it does make life way easier but you do have to be willing to work. No PT is a magician and can magically repair something in a couple of treatments...even for an athlete.
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
Have you had frozen shoulder? I can't imagine how you could even work that out in one or two sessions. I had numerous (like 20+) incredibly painful sessions of massage, physio, and chiropractic - and it still took over a year (closer to two) to regain full mobility and be pain free. It's not "one or two sessions of bad pain" - like it is almost unbearable pain. Think of the worst pain you have ever experienced. I don't consider myself "pain intolerant", (I have delivered three 10 lb babies drug free, and had two herniated discs) but frozen shoulder is just on another level entirely.
I have heard of people being put under and having it "forced" free, but doing that awake? I don't see how that is possible.1 -
Sladah10...I saw your post and had to share with others what worked for me. I suffered from frozen shoulder issues for about a year. My shoulder was almost useless and I had incredible constant pain especially at night while trying to sleep. I went to specialists, had x-rays, cortisone shots and PT from Ortho-one in Columbus Ohio. ...and nothing worked to relieve the pain and movement issues.
Then I discovered shoulder exercises that used only stretch bands. After using very simple raising and lowering and outward movements using bands/resistance stretching techniques my shoulder finally started to relieve itself after about two weeks. I did about 15 minutes of stretching about 4 times a day. After about a month I had about 80% motion and about 25% normal strength and only moderate pain. After about two months of more band self therapy adding more more exercises I was making incredible gains in strength and almost had no pain!! I did mostly exercises i found on youtube for frozen shoulder. One program I found was actually called TB12 (Tom Brady evidently uses bands for strength training and has developed a program using only bands). I followed some of those range of motion techniques using just one stretchy band. The band I used was the Gaiam brand orange colored one similar to this one listed below. Crazy as this sounds this $12 stretch band saved my shoulder and my peace of mind as frozen shoulder is a mysteriously debilitating condition that is almost inexplicable and difficult to remedy by many experts in the field.
https://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Resistance-Cord-Attachment-Heavy/dp/B01ICBQLLU/ref=sr_1_26?dchild=1&keywords=gaiam+stretch+band&qid=1628526930&sr=8-26
After about six months of band training and moderate weight training using dumbells and bench presses I am happy to say I am back to 100% and shoulder pain free. Another side note that I think may have helped remedy the shoulder issue may have been adjusting pillows and support during sleep. I added a 2" mattress pad and I started using memory foam pillows for proper head support and chest support as I am a side sleeper. Sleeping on your side can possibly pinch nerves in the shoulder depending on your arm position; this may have exacerbated my frozen shoulder issue or even caused it in the first place. Before going to sleep, I specifically place a pillow directly under my pectoral muscle and the upper rib cage area to relieve the pressure on the affected shoulder.
To maintain shoulder strength I continue to do the band exercises. in addition, I do hanging exercises from monkey bars or simply a pullup bar. I do about 10 minutes of assisted foreward grip pull ups and unassisted reverse grip pull ups. 3 sets total. I also do some modified yoga type stretches similar to "downward dog" where you actually are on all fours in a pushup position with the buttox pointing toward the ceiling then moving down to the cobra position. I do this about 10 times with some leg kicks and it keeps the shoulder blade area strong and stretched.
Good luck to all of those who are dealing with this frustrating condition. As stated by many each case is very different and will take time to resolve, Be patient,optimistic, and open minded as it can a combination of trying both physical and mental components to reverse and remedy the condition.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
I’m sorry, but a frozen shoulder is not a fascia problem. You cannot fix a frozen shoulder by addressing fascia. There is a surgical procedure that can be done called “manipulation under anesthesia” where you can go to an orthopedic surgeon and they put you under, then forcibly move the arm through the complete ROM, but that’s done very rarely.
Protocol may vary based on the patient, PT and physician, but in the freezing stage all you can do is try to limit the impairment. In the frozen stage, do all you can to maintain your ROM, and in the thawing stage, as mentioned probably half a dozen times above in this thread, is where ROM can be restored and improved.
PTs work according to evidence based practice, and current evidence dictates frozen shoulder treatment as well as the timeline.
This isn't the guy that I know, but it's a decent article. Not going to argue with you, but the guy I know goes to a large athletic conference every year and finds anyone he can find with frozen shoulders and works it until they get full ROM usually in a couple of hours.
https://stuart-hinds.com/blogs/performance-therapy/my-journey-with-the-nat
This is the same technique he uses. Again, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »
This isn't the guy that I know, but it's a decent article. Not going to argue with you, but the guy I know goes to a large athletic conference every year and finds anyone he can find with frozen shoulders and works it until they get full ROM usually in a couple of hours.
https://stuart-hinds.com/blogs/performance-therapy/my-journey-with-the-nat
This is the same technique he uses. Again, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Thanks for sharing the article. That’s an intriguing story. I’m still skeptical, especially since after you mentioned Niel Asher Technique, I spoke with one of my professors and he brought up that while people use it, there hasn’t been a lot of actual research done to support the treatments.
Like I said earlier, PT should be based on evidence based practice, but there’s also clinical judgment that must be used as well. If I see a patient with frozen shoulder, I may consider looking into this more.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »
And what I said is the guy I know unfreezes the shoulder. He doesn't fix it completely. He's a fascia specialist. But in order to rehab the shoulder, you first have to be able to move it and the shoulder joint is thickened and hard. That part of it is what he addresses and gets full ROM back in a couple of sessions. From there, it's still massive hard *kitten* work.
It's just a different approach to let's wait 6 months to a year for the shoulder to "unfreeze" on its own, which from what I was told, is what PTs seem to do now in a lot of cases in which the patient is pain intolerant. Again, which to me as someone that's had a severe frozen shoulder, seems absurd. It's assuming that there's no pain to leave the shoulder immobile. There's a ton of pain with an immobile shoulder when you sleep. You roll on it, you hit it. It's incredibly painful still. I'd rather go through one or two sessions of bad pain to make it mobile quicker than wait on it "thawing" for a year.
I’m sorry, but a frozen shoulder is not a fascia problem. You cannot fix a frozen shoulder by addressing fascia. There is a surgical procedure that can be done called “manipulation under anesthesia” where you can go to an orthopedic surgeon and they put you under, then forcibly move the arm through the complete ROM, but that’s done very rarely.
Protocol may vary based on the patient, PT and physician, but in the freezing stage all you can do is try to limit the impairment. In the frozen stage, do all you can to maintain your ROM, and in the thawing stage, as mentioned probably half a dozen times above in this thread, is where ROM can be restored and improved.
PTs work according to evidence based practice, and current evidence dictates frozen shoulder treatment as well as the timeline.
This isn't the guy that I know, but it's a decent article. Not going to argue with you, but the guy I know goes to a large athletic conference every year and finds anyone he can find with frozen shoulders and works it until they get full ROM usually in a couple of hours.
https://stuart-hinds.com/blogs/performance-therapy/my-journey-with-the-nat
This is the same technique he uses. Again, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I am really curious about this. Upthread you said that your guy can work out frozen shoulder in "one or two sessions", and here you are saying he gets full ROM in a couple of hours. But this article states that the original woman had some pain relief after four sessions, and that he treats frozen shoulder patients for "at least 10 sessions" (and how good it that been for his business.)
The article I can believe because the natural progression of frozen shoulder is that it gradually thaws and range of motion returns, so if you start treatment at that time in the process you are going to have an increase in ROM. So over 10 sessions you are going to get improvement.
Idk I don't want to argue either, but given my experience with frozen shoulder and just what I have learned about the physiology of it I don't understand how it is feasible to release the adhesion and scar tissue, and eliminate inflammation, in two hours. Like how is that physically possible? You literally have to tear the adhesion and physically stretch the capsule, which is why they do it under anaesthesia. I would wonder if these people being treated actually have full on frozen shoulder with adhesion.
The reason I wonder this is that when my second shoulder started to freeze I got it treated soon enough (with physio and cortisone shots) that it never got as bad as the first. I guess I would have been diagnosed with frozen shoulder in that one as well, and it was pretty painful, but it was NOT the same thing as first frozen shoulder I had with adhesion. That was almost unbearable bordering on "want to kill yourself" pain - at the worst of it I couldn't move my arm sideways even an inch away from my body.
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