Kinda Sounding This Out: Protein and Calories

springlering62
springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
in Goal: Maintaining Weight
I think maybe I just need some ears to talk this through, and get some input from trusted MFP’ers.

I am 5’7”, age 59, female, currently 133. I am retired so no job related activity, but would consider myself extremely active. I start every morning on my stationary bike, walk and/or run a appx 3 miles every morning and evening, work with a trainer a couple times a week, and average nine or ten vigorous mat classes a week. I walk or bike almost everywhere.

I’ve been in maintenance since January or February, after intentionally adding back a few pounds because I was scary thin.

I just love staying in motion. I can’t sit still very long.

Anyway, I’ve been averaging about 140gr/day of protein and 2300-2500 calories.

My trainer and the phone-consultation dietician my health plan offered me have independently suggested I increase both calories and protein. I’m trying to average 2500-2600 per day now, and they want me to increase protein to about 200gr/day.

Even increasing my calories, my weight is staying steady. In fact, if anything, it appears to be steadier, which is blowing my mind.

But the protein confuses me.

I know there’s some discussion here that people don’t need that much, that the body will flush or can even reject or not handle(?) excess protein well, and I’ve discussed this with both and both tell me independently that with my level of activity, I need it.

I’ve only been doing the increased protein for a few days. It’s difficult to get that much protein even with that many calories at my disposal.

I’ve added more chicken, cheeses, tuna, chaffles, edamame on my salad, every darn thing I can think of. I’m clawing to hit 200, and feel like I can’t “afford” all the lovely fruit I used to enjoy, because I’m spending so many calories on protein.

I found myself looking at beef jerky in disgust a little while ago, and that has normally been a treat.

It’s so much protein that I almost feel gross, because I’m so full.

I’m also having a bit of a mind *kitten* that I’m eating nearly 100% of my exercise calories back and it’s not affecting my weight. I’m used to having a large number of calories reassuringly banked at the end of every day, and being in the red so often boggles my mind, even though I know my weight is holding steady.

I am totally out of my comfort zone this week, and need a good talking to.

Talk to me about increasing calories and mad levels of protein?




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Replies

  • wunderkindking
    wunderkindking Posts: 1,615 Member
    There's something to be said for eating a lot of protein and some of that has to do with, yeah, activity and age as above.

    Incidentally, a lot of my activity is short duration but high intensity (ie: run through the woods like I'm being chased by a bear but only for maybe 10 minutes, max), and the rest is low intensity, high duration (hours and hours of hiking or paddleboarding). For the first I can do the 'quick shot of carbs' or even not especially eat to fuel it, but the second I HAVE to have a pretty hard hit of protein to go with the carbs to have sustained energy. So, if I were living life with your activity level, yeah, I'd probably need more protein proportional to my overall calories to feel my best. I'd also probably have to drink it, because I can only get so much of it into my food and 'so much' tends to be about 100/110 grams.

    A lot of the talk here re: protein is focused on satiety or trying to grow or keep muscle, but it's also just a longer lasting source of energy for me. Still need the carbs with it (I get gross feeling if I cut those, even short term, too), but protein seems to keep me going longer/better.
  • cupcakesandproteinshakes
    cupcakesandproteinshakes Posts: 1,133 Member
    Can you ask your trainer and dietician why they have made those recommendations? And go back to them explaining the difficulties you are having.

    High protein is suggested for older women but if it’s not suiting you then I think you need to say. I’m assuming you trust these professionals.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    Well, I'm not an expert. I am also retired, a little heavier than you (female 140-145 @ 5'7") I don't have the high activity you do. I do light resistance work for 10 minutes a day, and I walk on hilly unpaved terrain for an hour and a half per day. Other than that it's just around the house type work. No gardening.

    I've been maintaining on 2300-2600 (net) for over ten years. My protein tends to fall in around 110-130. I like my fruit and vegetables. I guess I could hit 200g with some rearranging of my meals. Maybe. I do have both plant and whey-based protein powders on hand and I use about one scoop per day. If I increased that? Maybe. It's about 20g per scoop. I like them both for different flavors and nutrition profiles. I have to watch my salt so it wouldn't be possible for me to increase up to 200g without supplements. I see that your salt intake is super high so apparently it's not an issue for you. That would be a problem for me.

    I would probably try it for a while if I were as active as you are for all the reasons. Or maybe I'd cut back on some of that activity? I don't know - you're a Beast!!
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »
    Can you ask your trainer and dietician why they have made those recommendations? And go back to them explaining the difficulties you are having.

    High protein is suggested for older women but if it’s not suiting you then I think you need to say. I’m assuming you trust these professionals.

    My trainer says I lose muscle faster, particularly in my arms, than anyone she’s ever known. She says she could see the loss when I got back from a two or three week gym absence due to mild Covid. (I continued walking extensively in the - very empty- federal cemetery and doing some online yoga during most of that period.) She says more protein would help me retain upper body muscle longer.

    I mentioned to the dietician that I am particularly spindly in upper body, and that was the first thing she suggested as well.

    The trainer I trust implicitly. She’s been training and judging for decades, has trained body builders and lifters, has studied extensively. The dietician is new to me, and due to phone consults, hasn’t got a clue what I look like. She’s going explicitly by my description of myself and my diet.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Well, I'm not an expert. I am also retired, a little heavier than you (female 140-145 @ 5'7") I don't have the high activity you do. I do light resistance work for 10 minutes a day, and I walk on hilly unpaved terrain for an hour and a half per day. Other than that it's just around the house type work. No gardening.

    I've been maintaining on 2300-2600 (net) for over ten years. My protein tends to fall in around 110-130. I like my fruit and vegetables. I guess I could hit 200g with some rearranging of my meals. Maybe. I do have both plant and whey-based protein powders on hand and I use about one scoop per day. If I increased that? Maybe. It's about 20g per scoop. I like them both for different flavors and nutrition profiles. I have to watch my salt so it wouldn't be possible for me to increase up to 200g without supplements. I see that your salt intake is super high so apparently it's not an issue for you. That would be a problem for me.

    I would probably try it for a while if I were as active as you are for all the reasons. Or maybe I'd cut back on some of that activity? I don't know - you're a Beast!!

    I guess I’ll look up some protein shakes. I’ve got some Naked whey that I supplement baked goods with but it doesn’t blend well, so I probably need something specific for drinks.

    I was worried about the salt, too, til I realized, all my mat classes are hot classes, plus I often run a mile or so before or between classes to warm up or stay warm. I’m already sweating profusely by the time I roll out my mat, and can easily lose several pounds of water weight after the short run and pulling double hot classes. I figure I’m losing a ton of salt via sweat, because sometimes I crave it and will eat a few grains. I also use Nuun tablets to supplement electrolytes.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    springlering62 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Well, I'm not an expert. I am also retired, a little heavier than you (female 140-145 @ 5'7") I don't have the high activity you do. I do light resistance work for 10 minutes a day, and I walk on hilly unpaved terrain for an hour and a half per day. Other than that it's just around the house type work. No gardening.

    I've been maintaining on 2300-2600 (net) for over ten years. My protein tends to fall in around 110-130. I like my fruit and vegetables. I guess I could hit 200g with some rearranging of my meals. Maybe. I do have both plant and whey-based protein powders on hand and I use about one scoop per day. If I increased that? Maybe. It's about 20g per scoop. I like them both for different flavors and nutrition profiles. I have to watch my salt so it wouldn't be possible for me to increase up to 200g without supplements. I see that your salt intake is super high so apparently it's not an issue for you. That would be a problem for me.

    I would probably try it for a while if I were as active as you are for all the reasons. Or maybe I'd cut back on some of that activity? I don't know - you're a Beast!!

    I guess I’ll look up some protein shakes. I’ve got some Naked whey that I supplement baked goods with but it doesn’t blend well, so I probably need something specific for drinks.

    I was worried about the salt, too, til I realized, all my mat classes are hot classes, plus I often run a mile or so before or between classes to warm up or stay warm. I’m already sweating profusely by the time I roll out my mat, and can easily lose several pounds of water weight after the short run and pulling double hot classes. I figure I’m losing a ton of salt via sweat, because sometimes I crave it and will eat a few grains. I also use Nuun tablets to supplement electrolytes.

    I put whey in my morning oats, in Greek yogurt, in coffee drinks, in smoothies. I like the plant based protein for just mixing with water for a protein/plant nutrient low cal hit. The plant based ones have salt, you might find that helpful. Easy to get 30g quickly with plant nutrients that you'll like.
  • Retroguy2000
    Retroguy2000 Posts: 1,847 Member
    edited October 2021
    springlering62 wrote: »
    My trainer says I lose muscle faster, particularly in my arms, than anyone she’s ever known. She says she could see the loss when I got back from a two or three week gym absence due to mild Covid. (I continued walking extensively in the - very empty- federal cemetery and doing some online yoga during most of that period.) She says more protein would help me retain upper body muscle longer.
    That doesn't make any sense to me. Let's assume for a moment your trainer somehow managed to know exactly how much of your covid related body change was due to muscle mass lost vs water weight vs bodyweight change generally from a change in exercise and presumably diet. Let's say they did somehow manage to nail that correctly. You aren't going to get covid regularly, so if your pre-covid amount was working for you, then it will still be working for you. No need for a permanent 40% boost from already high levels.

    Here are some random Google results. There are tons of similar reports, based on data. You're 60 kilos, previously taking in 140g protein which is 2.33g per kg bodyweight, and that's already at the very high end of recommended ranges.

    Results from the PROT-AGE Study Group suggested that physically active people over age 65 get at least 1.2 g of protein/kg of body weight. Wright recommends older weight lifters strive for 1.5 g of protein/kg of body weight per day.

    Around 50 years of age, we need to increase the protein in our diets to one gram per kilogram of our body weight to maintain muscle mass. People that exercise regularly also need to eat more protein than the recommended daily intake.

    According to current EFSA recommendations, you need 0.83 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight and day as an adult, regardless of your age.6 The US recommended daily intake is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body mass per day.7

    Recent research indicates that the elderly need more than that for health and physical function, somewhere between 1 to 1.3 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight and day, especially if they exercise and are physically active in general.8

    When you are young, you need around 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight and day for optimal gains.9 Nothing bad happens if you eat more than that, but don’t expect to gain any more muscle mass from doing so either. Adding even more protein to such an already large amount does not give you an advantage when it comes to building muscle.

    If you are elderly, that amount might not be enough to promote maximal gains. Unfortunately, the available research is lacking in many areas. It might be a good idea to shoot for a whopping 2.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight and day if your goal is to build as much muscle mass as possible.
  • drrcherry
    drrcherry Posts: 1 Member
    You are in good shape but to answer your prtein request if you want to increase it then try
    1. Twenty four hour femented greek yogurt..you have to make it yourself. Foll of good gut bacteria too.
    2. Home made hummus. use good ingredients..olive oil, lemon, garlic.

    You are clearly fit. To keep the challenge and interest going use weights. Squats dealifts, bench and overhead press.bgood for bones and muscle.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    Thank you @sijomial and @wunderkindking. You’re both very insightful and reassuring.

    I didn’t pre-log yesterday and felt out of control, because I was cooking several pounds of bacon to freeze, making a pizza from scratch, making a double batch of chaffles for snacks, and shredding chicken for the dog, plus we’d been to the grocery store, where I took an hour reading labels for things I don’t usually buy, to see if they’d be protein candidates. (I have looked at the spreadsheet as a starting point, but many of the foods I’m finding in the store don’t return the protein levels I’d hoped for based on the spreadsheet.)

    I prelogged this morning, and reached an acceptable protein level without having figured dinner in yet. (I’m cooking for one tonight and depends if I feel like cooking or takeout.)

    I am in the unfortunate habit of eating mostly the same snacks, breakfasts, and lunches. Dinner is where I change it up. So I have rejigger my meal
    plan. .
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    Thank you @Retroguy2000 and @drrcherry

    I already lift weights, in addition to the other things I do. I don’t record weightlifting to my diary as exercise because IMHO it’s so stop and go to change plates etc, it’s more for strength than calorie burn.

    I’m thinking with the quantity of movement I do, higher levels might be a good idea to at least try.

    My trainer has about forty years or so experience judging and training both lifters and bodybuilders. If she says she saw a difference, I trust her.

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,203 Member
    Congratulations! Unfortunately, you may've reached the zone of n=1 response, genetic lottery, where personal science fair experiments - in your goal specifics, possibly loooong ones - Really Matter.

    You're a demographic unicorn: Late bloomer, super active, etc. (How many of you-type are there? Not many, in the wild. Not much relevant research.)

    I get that your trainer is amazing (and tuned into your demographic), so the recommended strategy may be worth a multi-month experiment. I think Examine.com is a good source for n=many. But you're not many, you're one.

    If you can reach 200g *happily*, by incremental tweaking . . . if it were me, with your goals, dedication, focus, omnivore, leggings (key factor 😉) - I'd try it. For 6 months, maybe? Spread it across the day (limited research seems to suggest useful, esp if older)? See what happens?

    Me, at 5'5", mid-120s, veg, different goals - I'm good at 100g+ . . . but our genetics, goals differ.

    Cheering for you, hoping for (continued) greatness . . . keep us posted, maybe, eh?

  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    "springlering62 wrote:

    My trainer says I lose muscle faster, particularly in my arms, than anyone she’s ever known. She says she could see the loss when I got back from a two or three week gym absence due to mild Covid. (I continued walking extensively in the - very empty- federal cemetery and doing some online yoga during most of that period.) She says more protein would help me retain upper body muscle longer.

    I mentioned to the dietician that I am particularly spindly in upper body, and that was the first thing she suggested as well.

    The trainer I trust implicitly. She’s been training and judging for decades, has trained body builders and lifters, has studied extensively. The dietician is new to me, and due to phone consults, hasn’t got a clue what I look like. She’s going explicitly by my description of myself and my diet.

    Makes sense to me.
    Personally, I've always (over 40+ years of training) seemed to lose muscle quicker than my demographic who could take far longer training breaks without obvious muscle loss than I could. Fortunately, I also seemed to gain faster than my demographic when I could train consistently.

    The COVID related gym closure/reopening cycles reproduced the same issue, when I was only cycling for exercise, I fairly rapidly started to look like a cyclist and people noticed the upper body change without prompting.
    Would add the caveat it seems to have not a lot to do with my diet and all about the training/training breaks. When I was badly injured and immobile my muscle loss was spectacular and rapid despite a considerable calorie surplus.

    But I would take the advice and run the experiment. The inconvenience of a dietary change to me would be outweighed by the potential upsides. It's not like you are committed for life after all.
  • Cheesy567
    Cheesy567 Posts: 1,186 Member
    Great advice above. Just a couple thoughts. Egg whites can be a good protein source- if you don’t like them alone, try them in ratio to whole eggs for your omelettes and chaffles.

    If increasing your protein from 140 to 200 is too difficult at once, why not go stepwise, make a goal of 160 for a week or two, then 180, then 200? Gives you more time to adjust your palate, shopping habits, cooking habits, etc.

    HalfSize Me website has some high protein cooking recipes you might enjoy, pancakes and whatnot that are often pumpkin based with some protein powders.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,203 Member
    edited October 2021
    springlering62 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the advice. Been averaging 200 or so for a week now.

    Good lord, talk about satiation……and, um, regularity. 😙 which is a good thing, because there’s a noticeable bloat by bedtime.

    I finally caved and bought some chocolate protein powder to help keep the numbers up.

    I’ve been making into a simple smoothie with a serving of yogurt and cashew milk, and a ton of ice. After the first couple days (and a liberal dose of zero cal chocolate chip mint syrup), the chalky taste faded , smoothie now satisfying like a thick milkshake, and I’m actually enjoying it as a snack. That’s about 40gr right there and it is crazy, crazy filling.

    I enjoy the smoothie but then spend the next three hours chilled to the bone, wrapped in a sweater and a blanket, nursing a cup of hot tea, or deliberating taking a hot shower for no reason other than to warm up. And it’s 70 freaking degrees outside. This is only going to get worse.

    Even with yet another bump in calories and increasing protein from 150 to 200, my weight has stayed static, in fact, has dropped into the lowest end of my preferred range again, so as I do any time I drop into that range, I’m going to indulge this evening. I also noticed my loose extra belly skin is tighter this morning. I’m sure that’s just time and that a week worth of increased protein hasn’t caused that (or I’d double down!!!)

    There’s nothing so fascinating as our own weight and lumps. It’s like being your own Science Fair project. It’s just so interesting tweaking things. I’m my own Dr Hyde.

    @AnnPT77 you have such a knack for making people feel so good! Unicorn, indeed! Hahaha!!!!

    Consider that the right hot smoothie would be a nice, creamy Winter soup? 😉 Maybe peanut butter protein powder, a little squash or sweet potato if you like those (micros!), some of the cashew milk or some coconut milk? I think you like sweets more than savories, and I'm more the reverse, but still . . . there are options.

    ETA: Unicorn comma sparkly comma rainbow-colored. BTW one of my RL "friends" has deleted a comment I made in a FB group we both belong to, I think because it made her feel bad, so your opinion of me isn't universal, to say the least. 🤣 (In brief: Someone commented on our boat going faster than their boat. I stated specifically how fast our boat was actually going. (It wasn't what I'd call fast.))
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    @AnnPT77 you read me right. I am a sweets and bread freak. That’s why I gained weight.

    If I don’t have a trickle of sweet snacks all the live long day, I will climb the walls.

    But that soup sounds interesting. Though not with the chocolate protein powder I have.
  • mylittlerainbow
    mylittlerainbow Posts: 822 Member
    You guys astound me with your daily protein achievements! I set my goal for 100 for the day, since my personal trainer told me 80-100 (but then she said she'd settle for 60 for me since I'm a vegetarian), but I can hardly ever get there even with supplementation. I can't even conceive of getting to 200 grams of protein in a day and how many calories that might be! My limit is 1400 in a day.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,203 Member
    mylittlerainbow wrote: »
    You guys astound me with your daily protein achievements! I set my goal for 100 for the day, since my personal trainer told me 80-100 (but then she said she'd settle for 60 for me since I'm a vegetarian), but I can hardly ever get there even with supplementation. I can't even conceive of getting to 200 grams of protein in a day and how many calories that might be! My limit is 1400 in a day.

    FWIW: As a vegetarian myself, I'm inclined to think vegetarians need relatively *more* protein (because our sources are more likely to be less complete in essential amino acid profile), though I admit it can be harder to get. IIRC, @mylittlerainbow, you are quite petite compared to me, so I'm explicitly not commenting on your specific goal.

    Me, I'm comfortable at 1g per pound of estimated lean body mass daily, more if I can fit it in - I'm also shooting for 100 but as a minimum . . . but I'm not nearly as active as @springlering62 (and have slightly different experiences with exercise response, or so I fondly think): I'm also explicitly not making a judgement about her higher goal. In fact, I'm eagerly interested in what she observes going forward with this experiment!

    I gratefully have a higher calorie goal than yours, @mylittlerainbow, though I think I'm also bigger (5'5", mid-120s pounds) - eating at 1850 + exercise, mostly, which is a bit under actual maintenance (calorie banking for occasional indulgences), so 2200-2500 usually, more occasionally. I feel like enjoying savories benefits me on the protein front, as there are more savory protein sources than sweet ones.

    Although guavas . . . ?!?
  • cupcakesandproteinshakes
    cupcakesandproteinshakes Posts: 1,133 Member
    mylittlerainbow wrote: »
    You guys astound me with your daily protein achievements! I set my goal for 100 for the day, since my personal trainer told me 80-100 (but then she said she'd settle for 60 for me since I'm a vegetarian), but I can hardly ever get there even with supplementation. I can't even conceive of getting to 200 grams of protein in a day and how many calories that might be! My limit is 1400 in a day.

    Yes but OP is a highly active older woman who strength trains regularly. Your protein needs vary according to your personal circumstances and health needs.
  • Pipsqueak1965
    Pipsqueak1965 Posts: 397 Member
    I'm a 56 year ol 46 kg woman who does a bit of strength training - I get around 70g protein a day, and I need the protein powder to hit that. I don't really go much on meat, but I'm gradually recomping on what I eat (around 1600 Cal's a day I guess - sedentary job).
  • Pipsqueak1965
    Pipsqueak1965 Posts: 397 Member
    And I thought that you couldn't absorb more than around 30g protein at a time?
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    Pipsqueak1965 wrote: »
    And I thought that you couldn't absorb more than around 30g protein at a time?

    @Pipsqueak1965
    That's a very common myth but a myth all the same.
    Partly it's confusing rates of absorbtion (more takes longer, it doesn't get wasted), partly to do with levels for raising MPS (which isn't the only use for protein).
    There can be advantages for several repeated smaller doses compared to bigger but fewer doses but that's different to can't absorb/use it.

    Quite apart from you at 46kg compared to someone who could easily be far, far larger.
  • wunderkindking
    wunderkindking Posts: 1,615 Member
    edited October 2021
    mylittlerainbow wrote: »
    You guys astound me with your daily protein achievements! I set my goal for 100 for the day, since my personal trainer told me 80-100 (but then she said she'd settle for 60 for me since I'm a vegetarian), but I can hardly ever get there even with supplementation. I can't even conceive of getting to 200 grams of protein in a day and how many calories that might be! My limit is 1400 in a day.

    My oikos pro greek yogurt (25 grams) + chocolate whey powder (30 grams) + 8 ounces of 2% milk (8 grams) + 8 ounces of almond milk (like... 1 or two) comes out to 63 grams of protein for 400 calories - and more than 1/2 my daily protein goal. My usual standard is 'anything that has 10% as many grams of protein as calories is pretty good, so this is excellent.

    That's basically typical breakfast and is a HUGE protein hit in one go that keeps me full a long time. Also tastes like drinking chocolate cheesecake.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,437 Member
    It’s getting easier. I find myself with 194gr of protein already pre-logged.

    And 500+ calories still left over.

    I am literally a kid in a candy shop. Woot!
  • sheahughes
    sheahughes Posts: 133 Member
    I totally just googled that mint choc syrup because mmmmm mint choc and it is $24 AUD minimum per 750ml bottle! Sheeeesh it better be good ha ha
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    sheahughes wrote: »
    I totally just googled that mint choc syrup because mmmmm mint choc and it is $24 AUD minimum per 750ml bottle! Sheeeesh it better be good ha ha

    You can make your own for $3. :) I haven't bought a chocolate syrup in years because of the palm oil, and I like my own homemade syrups a lot better for a lot less $$$.

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