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What amount of money is a “livable wage”?
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So subjective because people have different ideas of "livable". Do you HAVE to have a home? Do you need a TV?
I know someone who lives off $15,000 a year cause they live in a one bedroom rent and only eats ramen and vegetables regularly. No luxuries and works out daily.
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In California, 75K, but 100k is much better. It is expensive here.
For example, I live in an average sized house in my neighborhood and my house payment and property taxes are $2700 a month, gas is $5 a gallon, I take quick showers and my water bill is $220 a month despite having no pool, and if I didn’t have solar my electric bill would be $500 a month like some of my neighbors.
I’m not living a luxury life either. My house is still mostly unfurnished, I drive a 12 year old car, and dont eat at fancy places. I don’t shop much either.
It is insane the cost of living here. Most people can’t afford their own place. A lot of adults live with their parents forever. Sometimes two families live in a single family home. When I was in college and after, 4 of us girls rented a tiny two bedroom apartment. I couldn’t afford my own apartment until after I became a physician assistant at age 28. I don’t live in Los Angeles either. I live an hour outside which is more *affordable*. If I lived in LA, I could not afford a home on my 6 figure wages. Nope. If I did happen to find one, it would be a 100 year old shack that’s falling apart.
Why do I stay? Family and weather. I could not tolerate a place that snowed or froze or a place with high humidity.
A huge factor in why things are so unaffordable is the high taxes. Our government sucks.
The total tax burden ($ per capita or as a % of income) is generally high in CA, we are around #8 to #10 nationally, but I wouldn't call it out as the primary cause of the high costs of living. The biggest pain point is the housing costs. In my area, a two bedroom apartment is $2500 and up and the median housing cost is now over $750k.
The DC metro area was even worse for housing costs and you didn't even get the benefit of the great year round weather.
Source: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-local-tax-burden-rankings/#Burdens
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May I join in? As an Australian, I am currently on a comfortable, livable wage of approximately $58000 taxable AUD per year plus about $13000 of Family Tax Benefit per year (non-taxable). When I was unemployed, I was receiving $13-18000 of Government benefits per year. Our income taxes (30% for me, applicable on taxable amounts over $18000 per year) pay for our public health care; primary and secondary education and can either fully fund or partially fund university degrees or tertiary (trade) qualifications depending on yearly income. I think the current exchange rate is about $0.75 cents US to $1 Australian?
I have enough income to cover my monthly expenses now that I am employed (I earn taxable $25 per hour full time, now) and my employer contributes compulsory 12% of my pre-tax wage to my superannuation account (your 401K?). If I want to see a dentist sooner than the public one can fit me in (long wait list) I can either go to the university dentistry school for free (FTB benefit) or pay a private dentist. I can see any doctor who bulk-bills to our Medicare scheme for free (paid for by taxes). My prescriptions cost $7 as they are covered by the pharmaceutical benefits scheme. If I have an emergency I just go to the nearest emergency department/hospital and will be treated for no cost.
My car registration and mandatory 3rd party insurance is less than $1000 per year, my additional insurance (covers at fault/basically everything) is $1000 per year but will go up when my learner driver gets his provisional license. My contents insurance is about $1250 per year (flood/cyclone area) for $50000 worth of contents.
My electricity costs me approximately $140 per fortnight (renting, no solar) and that is because we are two power hungry people. Rent for a smallish but quite comfortable 2 bedroom ground floor unit with two courtyards and private laundry/carport is $210 per week.
Finally, my 17 year old son works at a fast food place and makes $15 per hour plus Saturday/Sunday penalty rates which push his wage up to $25-30 per hour.
If I didn't spend as much as I earned it wouldn't take me long to build a nice nest egg to buy my own property. I'm currently paying down debts so I can put the current debt payments in to savings for a house of my own.7 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »In California, 75K, but 100k is much better. It is expensive here.
For example, I live in an average sized house in my neighborhood and my house payment and property taxes are $2700 a month, gas is $5 a gallon, I take quick showers and my water bill is $220 a month despite having no pool, and if I didn’t have solar my electric bill would be $500 a month like some of my neighbors.
I’m not living a luxury life either. My house is still mostly unfurnished, I drive a 12 year old car, and dont eat at fancy places. I don’t shop much either.
It is insane the cost of living here. Most people can’t afford their own place. A lot of adults live with their parents forever. Sometimes two families live in a single family home. When I was in college and after, 4 of us girls rented a tiny two bedroom apartment. I couldn’t afford my own apartment until after I became a physician assistant at age 28. I don’t live in Los Angeles either. I live an hour outside which is more *affordable*. If I lived in LA, I could not afford a home on my 6 figure wages. Nope. If I did happen to find one, it would be a 100 year old shack that’s falling apart.
Why do I stay? Family and weather. I could not tolerate a place that snowed or froze or a place with high humidity.
A huge factor in why things are so unaffordable is the high taxes. Our government sucks.
The total tax burden ($ per capita or as a % of income) is generally high in CA, we are around #8 to #10 nationally, but I wouldn't call it out as the primary cause of the high costs of living. The biggest pain point is the housing costs. In my area, a two bedroom apartment is $2500 and up and the median housing cost is now over $750k.
The DC metro area was even worse for housing costs and you didn't even get the benefit of the great year round weather.
Source: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-local-tax-burden-rankings/#Burdens
Yes, housing costs are an issue but so are taxes. My friends in Florida and Texas take home an extra 10% per year. Our state taxes are very high not to mention the high taxes on gas and other things. Everything is more expensive including food.
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So subjective because people have different ideas of "livable". Do you HAVE to have a home? Do you need a TV?
I know someone who lives off $15,000 a year cause they live in a one bedroom rent and only eats ramen and vegetables regularly. No luxuries and works out daily.
This is too complicated
I can get a 40" TV for under $200 or spend $3,000 on a 77" TV. Both give me equal access to entertainment and news.
Do I pack my lunch or eat out frequently?
Is my car 10k used or a $35k new purchase? Both can be reliable transport.
Do I go to 24hr Fitness, or use a deluxe gym with a personal trainer. Both can keep you fit.
Do I car camp or fly to Cabo for my 2 wk vacation? Both work as a break/vacation.
For the same basic standard of living, our expectations/habits greatly impact how much $$ is required to get there.2 -
Liveable or comfortable?
Where I live, 1500/month net, canadian dollars, would be more than enough to live for a single person: you can find a decent apartment at ~700 rent, public transport is ~100 a month and good enough not to need a car, healthcare is free and that leaves 700 for bills, food and miscellaneous expenses. You could probably trim that down to 1200 and still survive.
As for living comfortably, that's much more subjective.2 -
"Liveable" as defined by most of us with internet access, is absolutely spoiled to much of the world. So take your cost of living adjusted standard, and reduce it in every way, shape and form to basic food, clothing and shelter. Even in a high cost of living area for many people it would be a LOT less than people think.
I think even in developed countries the standards of wants vs needs has changed quite a bit over the years. We are spoiled to the point we forget that we don't NEED cell phones, or a lot of other things, we just WANT them. But you can hear people complain about bills when they drop a few weeks pay on a cell phone without a second thought.
As for us, it would be a fairly low number. We both have essentially free health insurance due to military service, and have had no mortgage for quite a while. If I took out all the wants, we could probably live on less than $1,000 a month, keeping all the creature comforts we have now.2 -
I remember seeing photos of all the possessions in a person's home placed outside. In some countries that'd be merely cooking utensils, few clothes. In the U.S. that'd be incredibly different.
Just something to think about. Our wants vs. our basic needs.2 -
robertw486 wrote: »"Liveable" as defined by most of us with internet access, is absolutely spoiled to much of the world. So take your cost of living adjusted standard, and reduce it in every way, shape and form to basic food, clothing and shelter. Even in a high cost of living area for many people it would be a LOT less than people think.
I think even in developed countries the standards of wants vs needs has changed quite a bit over the years. We are spoiled to the point we forget that we don't NEED cell phones, or a lot of other things, we just WANT them. But you can hear people complain about bills when they drop a few weeks pay on a cell phone without a second thought.
As for us, it would be a fairly low number. We both have essentially free health insurance due to military service, and have had no mortgage for quite a while. If I took out all the wants, we could probably live on less than $1,000 a month, keeping all the creature comforts we have now.
I think cell phones and internet access are moving from luxury items to near necessity. In most situations, you need internet access to apply for a job, or apply for unemployment or government assistance, for instance. It has become difficult (not impossible) to do things like banking and paying bills without internet access.
And, in order to access the internet, you need a device of some sort, such as a cell phone, tablet, or computer.
Yes, there are libraries that have free computers and internet, but you have to be available during library hours to use them. You can't keep going back to the library to check your e-mail to see if you have been offered a job. If you are caring for children or elderly family members, it is even harder.
Everyone could figure out a way to get by without a cell phone or internet, but our current society (in the "first world" anyway), has shifted toward assuming you have these things and making it very difficult for people who don't/can't.8 -
So, yeah, "livable wage" has a cultural context.
If someone living a nomadic life in a yurt in Mongolia can get along fine with a few pots, a lot of blankets, and no cash income, that's great. It has no bearing on what's livable for a family in the densely-populated parts of LA or NYC in the USA.
If someone like me - who grew up in the country, knows how to garden-preserve food-sew and more can get along on $X a month (especially if things like "paid off mortgage" are in the picture), it has no bearing on someone who doesn't (yet) have those skills, or access to the resources (land, canning jars, whatever) necessary to utilize them.
When I was growing up, where I was growing up, there weren't even solid building or habitability codes in a lot of places. Now, you're not even allowed to put a nicely-kept apartment-sized 2-bedroom mobile home in that same area. (My parents lived in a 16' travel trailer for the better part of a year, with me as a baby, while building their house . . . which my dad, his brother, and an occasional army of cousins coming in for pouring cement or raising walls, in return for a potluck meal and promises of reciprocation when needed. You can't do that trailer thing anymore.)
We, in the relatively well-off developed world are very fortunate in global and historical terms, yup. If we're defining "livable" in global terms for philosophical chit-chat reasons, that's one thing. If we're talking practical or public-policy reasons for discussing it, it has to be defined in terms of the relevant social context. I still think that in the US that means things like whether minimum wage will get you a basic apartment it's legal to live in, adequate health insurance, basic nutrition, and the necessities to participate in civic life and the school system . . . which does, these day, usually imply things like phones and internet access.6 -
For ME and me alone~
Livable: $75,000 per year
Life is good: $130,000
Fantasy: $250,000+2 -
In a historical context, in 1950 the median family income was roughly $3K annually and the median home price was $7,500. For further context, this was usually one person working, and it wasn't some high powered white collar career...the breadwinner was typically blue collar men. So the median home price was roughly 2.5x the median family income (one wage earner).
By 2010 the median family income had risen to roughly $50K but was also more typically two people working. The median home price was roughly $222K. So at this point the median home price is almost 4.5x the median wage with an additional person working.
By 2021 the median family income had risen to roughly $80K (two income) with a median home price of roughly $375K; roughly 4.7x the median income for a two income family.
I don't know what the exact figure would be, but I do think there's a difference between a livable wage and a survival wage. A livable wage would suggest more than mere survival. It is clear that wages have not kept pace with rising costs. My grandfather married and bought his first house with a baby on the way in 1950. He made $.75/hour plus tips as a gas station attendant, equivalent to a wage of around $8.61 today. My grandmother also didn't work. I don't know of anyone who can buy a home with $8.61 per hour these days, particularly on a single income. My area has a relatively low cost of living and one would be hard pressed to even find an apartment to rent in a decent area of town where they don't have to fear for their lives on $8.61 per hour.
I work for the judiciary in my state and we have determined a livable wage for our entry level clerks with little or no higher education to be $18/hr. These are considered to be white collar, entry level positions requiring no higher education or background in the field. That's about $37.5K annually. Most of them have families and that puts them about $10K over the poverty line for a family of four. To match the 2.5x median income to median home cost in 1950, the median income would have to be roughly $150K...and on average that would be a single family income.7 -
Living wage in my area has been calculated to be $22/hr. Average house price is $1.1 million, average rent for a one bedroom apartment is about $1800/month.
It really depends where you live.2 -
Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.1
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bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.
Depends on how you live.1 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.
Depends on how you live.
So you think people should just be impoverished to the point of mere survival in a first world country because people in other countries are impoverished? Gotcha...don't forget to tip your waiter making $2.13/hr.
Again, a survival wage is different than a livable wage. Average rent here is $1,117 for a small apartment. Go much lower than that and you're looking in the ghetto and bound to get killed.5 -
That last sentence feels very exotic to me...cwolfman13 wrote: »(...) Again, a survival wage is different than a livable wage. Average rent here is $1,117 for a small apartment. Go much lower than that and you're looking in the ghetto and bound to get killed.
Anyway, the reason many itt have focused on survival is that it's fairly objective: shelter, food, clothing and a modicum of creature comforts to maintain mental and physical health.
When you go beyond that, things quickly become quite subjective: for instance, and to echo what SuzySunshine said, I would consider owning a computer and having internet access almost a necessity as it's necessary for my job and any I'd care to do, even just to apply for, whereas I wouldn't see owning a car as any sort of priority... I'm pretty sure many would see it otherwise.2 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
I don't live in Haiti. I can't buy or rent a home at Haiti prices.7
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