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What determines how your life will be?
ReenieHJ
Posts: 9,724 Member
in Debate Club
I hope this can remain nonpolitical so it stays but lately I've been thinking a lot about how our lives turn out, what it takes individually to 'make something of ourselves' versus 'blaming our childhood/environment, etc., etc.'
Is our success rooted in our family's ties, origins, family's successes, or does coming from poverty, abuse, etc., create a more challenging and/or impossible likelihood of being successful in life. I guess another question would be what is your definition of success?
I've been lucky enough to know people that were raised in less than fortunate circumstances yet rise above all their challenges to be happy. But I also know a couple people who choose to blame the world, and their childhood, for every single thing that happens to them.
One celebrity that comes to mind right off, is Oprah Winfrey. But I know there are many many who have risen above and beyond, despite rough childhoods.
Just interested in people's perspective is all.
How far does our beginning in life go towards creating who we are? And what other factors do you feel come into play?
Is our success rooted in our family's ties, origins, family's successes, or does coming from poverty, abuse, etc., create a more challenging and/or impossible likelihood of being successful in life. I guess another question would be what is your definition of success?
I've been lucky enough to know people that were raised in less than fortunate circumstances yet rise above all their challenges to be happy. But I also know a couple people who choose to blame the world, and their childhood, for every single thing that happens to them.
One celebrity that comes to mind right off, is Oprah Winfrey. But I know there are many many who have risen above and beyond, despite rough childhoods.
Just interested in people's perspective is all.
How far does our beginning in life go towards creating who we are? And what other factors do you feel come into play? 2
Replies
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From The Brookings Institution:
"In addition to the thousands of local and national programs that aim to help young people avoid these life-altering problems, we should figure out more ways to convince young people that their decisions will greatly influence whether they avoid poverty and enter the middle class. Let politicians, schoolteachers and administrators, community leaders, ministers and parents drill into children the message that in a free society, they enter adulthood with three major responsibilities: at least finish high school, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children.
Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class (defined as earning around $55,000 or more per year). There are surely influences other than these principles at play, but following them guides a young adult away from poverty and toward the middle class."
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/6 -
Anyone CAN achieve success, but some have considerable advantages over others. I think we all know what those factors are. Not that the disadvantages can't be overcome with a lot of work and also some luck, but the obstacles are immense for some.
I can best sum it up with my real life conversations with my co-workers. I work in a large, diverse, mid-western U.S. city, Chicago. I often ask my co-workers about how they got here, what was their path? I hear two distinct stories...this is kind of a compilation of what I hear:
1. I was born in (affluent suburb), Dad is a (lawyer/CEO/dentist), Mom is a stay-at-home Mom. I went to (private high school), played (travel sport of choice). I attended (Big Ten University), and then got a middle-management job here because my Dad is friends with the CEO. (Seriously, a large number of my co-workers are friends and family members of upper management).
2. I was born in (Lower-middle class city neighborhood). My parents both worked a lot, so we were on our own most of the time. I went to (public high school), then (community college). I worked a lot of jobs along the way....retail, fast food, construction, to pay for school and housing and food. I applied for a ton of jobs in my field and finally got in here at the lowest level and pay grade.
The second person was not abused in childhood, did not grow up in squalor, or have any considerable "trauma". They were just born into different circumstances and did not have everything handed to them. They had to work much harder for success.
Race and gender are also considerable factors.6 -
I didn't have a particularly "rough" childhood or anything, but we were pretty poor when I was growing up and my family didn't have any particular connections to help with a leg up.
I started working at a young age. When I was in rural Nebraska, I had a walking paper route at the age of 10 and also mowed lawns in the summer and spent a season detaasseling corn. I moved to New Mexico when I was 13 and it was a little harder in the city, but I did random yard work for neighbors and people at church. When I was 15 I got my permit to work and started working at a roller skating rink and later a movie theater until I graduated high school.
I joined the military out of high school as I didn't really feel ready for college and didn't really know what I wanted to do or be. When I left the military I started back to school at a community college; I worked full time and took classes at night. It was slow going with only being able to take a couple of classes per semester. When I finally got to the point of having to transfer to university to finish my education, I went to part time work during the school year to better focus on getting school over and done. I did have to take out some student loans to accomplish this and supplement working less, but I kept it to the bare minimum that I could.
I graduated when I was 30 and consolidated all of my loans with an educational loan foundation at a low interest rate. As an accounting graduate I started working as a staff auditor with a CPA firm. I also married my long term girl friend at this time. My wife and I also decided to delay having children to focus on building our careers and just enjoy some "us time" and being newly weds. I worked for the firm for 6 years and worked my way up to a senior associate. At that point, my wife was pregnant with our first and we both thought it was time to move on from public accounting given the hours I had to work and the amount of time on the road I had to spend. She didn't want to feel like she was raising our children on her own, and I didn't want to miss out on them growing up.
For any newly graduated accounting major I would highly recommend spending some time in public accounting as a financial auditor. It is an absolute grind, but you learn many more aspects of financial accounting than if you were to just go work for a private business and get stuck in the A/P department for years. Given the nature of being a financial auditor, I also made a lot of connections with people in various industries, so it was also great for networking. That networking is how I happened upon the opportunity to be where I am now and have been for the last 11 years as a Controller/CFO.
It was all very much worth the effort, the long hours, and the 25 weeks per year on the road. I'm still married to my beautiful wife and we have two outstanding young boys of 9 and 11 and those are the most important things in my life. We also both do well financially which is a delicious gravy, but not necessarily how we define our success.6 -
It comes down to personality traits and genetics. The phrase anyone can succeed is funny, someone with an IQ of 85 can never become a lawyer no matter how hard he tries. Intellectual capabilities are not evenly distributed in the population.4
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I think our environment and how we were raised most definitely has an impact on how successful we are. I think how we are parented may have an even more important role than physical circumstances of our upbringing. It influences how healthy we are (physically and mentally) and character traits tied to success such as perseverance/resilience, empathy, self-control, curiosity, and integrity. These traits are just as important (if not more so) more important than doing "well" academically. Of course, people who are born and raised in more advantageous circumstances (and in that I also include ethnicity and even gender) may automatically have more opportunities for so-called better education, better-paying jobs, not to mention better housing etc., that we often equate with an outward appearance of "success."
What people who come from what most might consider more disadvantaged backgrounds have vs. those who don't is plenty of opportunities to build and cultivate resilience. Resilience is a hugely important trait when it comes to not only "success," but mental health as well. That's not saying that it wasn't and isn't way harder for those who have many more obstacles to overcome than those who don't, and I think it's ok for those people to acknowledge how hard it is/was. I also think it's understandable why people who come from more disadvantaged backgrounds to struggle more with things like better education, better-paying jobs, health (weight included) and addiction, for example. However, I think kind of the opposite of resilience is getting stuck in that "woe is me" attitude and blaming everything and everyone and not making attempts to move ahead.4 -
It comes down to personality traits and genetics. The phrase anyone can succeed is funny, someone with an IQ of 85 can never become a lawyer no matter how hard he tries. Intellectual capabilities are not evenly distributed in the population.
The phrase "anyone can succeed" doesn't mean "anyone can succeed at every specific profession".
I will never be a champion marathon runner, no matter how hard I work. I don't have the genetics.
As you point out, not everyone has the mental capabilities to do every job.
Some people have permanent physical limitations that disqualifies them from certain professions.
But, is that how you are measuring "success"? If I can't achieve my dream of being a lawyer, then I'm not successful?
Maybe for some people, being a bagger at a grocery store is "success" because that is the top limit of their capabilities and they have to work hard to achieve it.6 -
I believe it's subjective because "success" means different things to people. For some it's money, some relationships, some meeting a lifelong goal (say climbing Mt. Everest), etc.
While I believe that anyone can achieve what they want that's reasonable, HOW hard it is for them varies. For some it comes easy and for others, they may struggle.
I worked in sales organizations where all they thought about was money and that was the sign of their success. I worked long hard hours and really didn't enjoy that much, but did it for 12 years because I thought money defined me.
Later, I decided to go after my passion........health and fitness. And that's what I do today. I LOVE MY JOB. The hours I put in don't seem hard or crazy even though I may work 45 hour a week or more. I'm not rich doing it, but I live within my means and am quite happy. Stress is super low and I come to work enthusiastic every day. How many people can really say they totally love what they do for a living?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I also think we have to differentiate between personal success and professional success.
I know too many people who have achieved great professional success, but they admit that their personal life is a disaster.
They would still describe themselves as "successful" because they have a good job, a lot of money, and a big house.
But, if it were me, I wouldn't consider my LIFE as a success unless I was healthy, happy, and engaged in good relationships.3 -
A distinction no one seems to have made so far is whether we're talking individually or statistically.
To give a non-political (at least for the past 1400 years) example of the difference, the empress Theodora started life as an... entertainer, to sanitize it for mfp (a child entertainer from a modern perspective, to be specific) and became arguably the most powerful woman of her time... but I hope I don't need to justify that, statistically speaking, your birth was rather an important thing back in the 6th century...0 -
It comes down to personality traits and genetics. The phrase anyone can succeed is funny, someone with an IQ of 85 can never become a lawyer no matter how hard he tries. Intellectual capabilities are not evenly distributed in the population.
I have seen numerous stories of adults with Down Syndrome (who would be considered "intellectually disabled" by measuring their IQ's) who are successful in terms of owning their own businesses, getting married, modeling and working in professions that they love. Seems like they succeeded at doing what they wanted to do, despite having low IQ's. Having a high IQ doesn't guarantee any kind of professional success either, especially if they struggle with skills not measured by a standard IQ test (which is actually relatively common in those with measured high IQ's).1 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »It comes down to personality traits and genetics. The phrase anyone can succeed is funny, someone with an IQ of 85 can never become a lawyer no matter how hard he tries. Intellectual capabilities are not evenly distributed in the population.
Having a high IQ doesn't guarantee any kind of professional success either, especially if they struggle with skills not measured by a standard IQ test (which is actually relatively common in those with measured high IQ's).
I never said it did.
I was talking about professional because the defnition of success is so vague it has yet to be defined here. So my post was about professional success.0 -
I know a lot of the values I have toward education, money and work came from my parents in childhood. As soon as it became apparent that I was going to do well academically the message was "you are going to university". There were no other options. I was taught to save from a very young age (half my allowance had to go in the bank). There were no handouts, I started working part-time when I was 14, even earlier if you count babysitting. I had to pay for my own university education although my parents could easily afford it. I did drop out halfway through first year because I was questioning whether I was there because I genuinely wanted to be there, or because I'd heard it all my life. I got a full-time job and quickly figured out that I did want something different for the rest of my career so I did go back and finish university. I worked my *kitten* off back then, part-time job year round then added a full-time job in summers. I was thrilled to graduate and just work one job, Monday to Friday. Since I work for a large organization there are a number of roles I'm qualified for and eventually I found my niche. I LOVE MY JOB. I could have moved up the ranks and, years ago, I was being nudged up the ranks, but I didn't enjoy the work. I didn't like that feeling of dreading every workday. So I've stayed where I am. Maybe I'm seen as "less successful" because I'm not up there in management now but my happiness is more important to me. And, because of the value of saving that was instilled in me, I'm in a financial position where I don't need the higher-paying job.
I don't know where kids who never see the possibilities for their future acquire ambition though. If your family doesn't value education, why would you be motivated to put in the effort at school? If hardly anyone in your family even finished high school, how are you ever going to dream of post-secondary education? And sure, maybe those kids will grow up to be content with the job they end up in, when they could have been happier and more fulfilled had they had the opportunity to go in a different direction.6 -
Most peoples 'success' is determined by what other people think.
Likes on a social media page and what your job title and relationship status is.
Not forgetting your bank balance and how much 'stuff' you own.
Validation is 'success'
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I believe it's subjective because "success" means different things to people. For some it's money, some relationships, some meeting a lifelong goal (say climbing Mt. Everest), etc.
While I believe that anyone can achieve what they want that's reasonable, HOW hard it is for them varies. For some it comes easy and for others, they may struggle.
I worked in sales organizations where all they thought about was money and that was the sign of their success. I worked long hard hours and really didn't enjoy that much, but did it for 12 years because I thought money defined me.
Later, I decided to go after my passion........health and fitness. And that's what I do today. I LOVE MY JOB. The hours I put in don't seem hard or crazy even though I may work 45 hour a week or more. I'm not rich doing it, but I live within my means and am quite happy. Stress is super low and I come to work enthusiastic every day. How many people can really say they totally love what they do for a living?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That, right there, would be part of how I'd define success. Loving what you do and doing what you love. Making enough money to pa the bills with a bit left over would help as well. Having the love and respect of family and friends makes life worth living. But it all needs to come together and be the glue that defines success. I guess in a nutshell success could be defined as contentment with your life.2 -
Walkywalkerson wrote: »Most peoples 'success' is determined by what other people think.
Likes on a social media page and what your job title and relationship status is.
Not forgetting your bank balance and how much 'stuff' you own.
Validation is 'success'
Interesting point. I think a certain amount of validation helps create a circle of support to motivate or inspire a person but really isn't or shouldn't be what it currently has come to be, to define success.
We pay way too much attention to things that don't matter in our lives, such as all the media influencers, etc. But more towards validation from loved ones. And even then, we need to know(for ourselves) where to draw that line. 1 -
Walkywalkerson wrote: »Most peoples 'success' is determined by what other people think.
Likes on a social media page and what your job title and relationship status is.
Not forgetting your bank balance and how much 'stuff' you own.
Validation is 'success'
Interesting point. I think a certain amount of validation helps create a circle of support to motivate or inspire a person but really isn't or shouldn't be what it currently has come to be, to define success. We pay way too much attention to things that don't matter in our lives, such as all the media influencers, etc. But more towards validation from loved ones. And even then, we need to know(for ourselves) where to draw that line.
Validation in the form of social media is addictive.
I'm not judging anyone that uses it as like you say a tool to motivate or inspire - but it's mostly ego boosting bragging that usually only has a small element of truth in it.
Every time I Google someone I know well their online persona is usually hugely exaggerated.
They're always really 'successful' in their bios.
If we were to have honest social media then most people would just be ordinary - and that's OK!
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my idea of success is not being the most senior or top position in my proffession or having the most money or the most things.
It is doing a job I like and that I am good at and do my best in and having a loving family and friends and contributing to my community and having a happy productive life.
those things are influenced by our upbringing too - a loving supportive family and the support and mental capacity to have occupational options in life and money handling skills - makes it easier to have this success than somebody who has poor relationship models and impacts of childhood trauma, for example
But I don't consider somebody who is CEO of a big company to be more successful than somebody who works in a low paying job that they like and do well and both or neither could have successful personal lives.3 -
LORD JESUS is all the success i need! Everything else is vain and doesn't matter. I take great comfort in Him5
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Just five things that I strongly believe influence success in anything.
I read a fantastic book by Jo Boaler called Limitless Mind. Most people look at the book and believe that it's geared toward teaching. It's actually a book on how your mind learns and how it's "limitless" if you believe that you learn from mistakes, welcome mistakes and learning plateaus, understand you will get through it eventually, learn collaboratively and believe that you can do it. Should be required reading for every teacher and high school student because it applies to life and it's all science based.
Years ago, they did a study with kids and followed them for years. The ability to put off instant gratification was the highest trait in those with the most success. That's something that's sorely lacking in today's parenting. We give kids (immediately) whatever the hell they want. That's actually child abuse in my honest opinion. You're setting your kids up for failure. Teach them, instead, good things come with sacrifice, hard work and patience. Make them wait on things. Don't hand them cell phones at 2.
Stanford University did a study years ago following people that did goal planning versus those that didn't. Those that did were widely more successful than those that didn't following them for around a decade (I believe). I've always been a strong believer in five year planning. Start with where you want to be and work backward. Franklin Planner seminars are great. Panda Planner is also a wonderful tool.
A support structure starting with parenting. Present parenting. Enough said. Give your kids at least a moral compass for starters. A strong community structure can certainly replace parents that aren't there.
Ability to communicate. And, I believe, this can be learned. My wife wasn't particularly good at school (she was dyslexic and it never got diagnosed). In adulthood, she's learned to spell, studied vocabulary, even taken up a lot of reading. I was a terrible/petrified public speaker. I joined Toastmasters and learned to communicate in front of others. After five years, I was the best speaker in my club. I was horrific to start and that's not an exaggeration.
I'm sure there's more but one other that comes to mind (I see this all the time as a high-level recruiter for over two decades) -- conflict resolution skills. I don't know where these went, but they are sorely, sorely needed in business. It's the most common ability I see lacking in the workforce, whether it's laziness, no one has ever taught them, intentional avoidance or immaturity. But people cannot address difficult decisions and confront others and tell them honestly and openly how they feel and that's a real shame. That's how things progress.
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You make some good points there Mike.
But I disagree with this: Stanford University did a study years ago following people that did goal planning versus those that didn't. Those that did were widely more successful than those that didn't following them for around a decade (I believe). I've always been a strong believer in five year planning. Start with where you want to be and work backward. Franklin Planner seminars are great. Panda Planner is also a wonderful tool.
Well l dont disagree that they did a study - but I wonder what their criteria for 'more successful' were.
Obviously a subjective term
and I have a huge dislike of 5 year planning - I think a go with the flow and make decisions according to what happens in life is much better than having a formal 5 year plan.
My absolute pet hate is workplace appraisals that ask Where do you see yourself in 5 years time?
My answer was always Still here if my circumstances are the same, somewhere else if they are not..
I consider myself to be successful, according to my own criteria given upthread, and I have never ever done 5 year plans.1 -
@paperpudding - to me, it's given me direction and it's not all about money. My last five year plan included financial stuff, sure, but the financial stuff was more of a means to an end -- retirement savings, living in a geography that I love, doing more volunteering and charitable endeavors.
My son and his buddy recruited for me for five years. One time, I asked them to do a five year plan. I always encouraged them to really do what they loved (in areas of recruiting). My son's five year plan was to be in "real estate wholesaleing". I was like, "so that sounds like an interesting addition to recruiting". And he informed me that he didn't love recruiting!
Long story, but after my hurt feelings recovered, we talked about it and I encouraged him to take steps towards learning that industry and educating himself on it. He now lives in San Diego and he's the "closer" for one of the top real estate wholesaleing companies in SoCal. Further, it was his goal to move from residential to commercial properties. He just closed his first apartment building a month ago.
Oh, and my son's honesty also encouraged his buddy to tell me that he didn't love "headhunting" either. He's in San Diego too, running one of the largest solar offices in SoCal, managing like 30 people and killing it too. I feel great I was able to mentor these two guys out of an industry that they didn't love.
To me, five year plans give direction and purpose. No one has to do them, but it adds clarity to my daily activity. And if you go back and look at my five year plan, I've achieved 80% of it (and mine are typically aggressive). And five year plans should be more about what makes you happy, not how much money you should make. If you can combine the two, that's the best of both worlds.
If I had to name one more thing, it's follow your passions and make that your career. To be completely honest, I hate the day to day of recruiting. It's boring as hell. But around 20 years ago, because I'm an environmentalist/tree hugger, I started targeting startups in renewables and sustainability. At this stage, I'm happy to say I've worked with well over 30 highly disruptive startups and I'm highly sought after as a consultant/advisor by those types of companies (and I'm on the board of one very exciting one).
IMHO, you can help determine your life's direction or you can allow life to happen to you. I prefer the first option.2 -
IMHO, you can help determine your life's direction or you can allow life to happen to you. I prefer the first option.
Well that is a bit of vague rhetoric IMO and also presents a false dichotomy.To me, five year plans give direction and purpose. No one has to do them, but it adds clarity to my daily activity.
Good. They are a tool that works for you.
Not one I am a fan of myself.
I find my life has enough direction, purpose and clarity without 5 year plans.4 -
@paperpudding -- if you are happy and fulfilled in life already (and it sounds like you are), you don't need to do anything different but enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that. I personally wasn't where I wanted to be doing what I wanted to do, so I needed an action plan to get there.
15 years ago, I was miserable working for some *kitten* people at a company that had very little morals/integrity. My wife had failing health and we were depressed about the weather/rain. Financially we weren't in a great place either. All of that has changed now and it was because of the actions/training/work that both my wife and I did. It certainly wasn't just good fortune or being lucky.
But if you're 100% content, that's fantastic. And it sounds like you are.3 -
Sure- like I said, good that the tool of 5 year plans worked for you.
I didn't say I was 100% content, I dont think that is possible - but whenever I need to make changes in life, I make them without doing 5 year plans
That doesnt mean doing no actions, training or work and just relying on luck or good fortune - another false dichotomy: use 5 year planning or just rely on luck.
I disagree with your statement of strongly recomending them I think they are a load of twaddle.4 -
paperpudding wrote: »Sure- like I said, good that the tool of 5 year plans worked for you.
I didn't say I was 100% content, I dont think that is possible - but whenever I need to make changes in life, I make them without doing 5 year plans
That doesnt mean doing no actions, training or work and just relying on luck or good fortune - another false dichotomy: use 5 year planning or just rely on luck.
I disagree with your statement of strongly recomending them I think they are a load of twaddle.
Fair enough. I should have said action steps or habits, but you have to take some sort of actionable steps if you aren't happy.
Relationships (which I only touched on) were found to be the key to happiness by a Harvard study 75 years ago. I still think that holds true.
I hate to admit this but I'm an introvert that could keep to myself with just my animals and my wife/kids and be completely content. My wife, on the other hand, is a social butterfly and needs interaction/relationships to be happy. Part of my action plan was to put us (geographically) in an area where we could maximize those possibilities and that's been rewarding for us.
I would guess you also have a strong social network and great relationships (something that's natural for some, not for me).2 -
Fair enough. I should have said action steps or habits, but you have to take some sort of actionable steps if you aren't happy
Yes that I do agree with. If something needs changing, you need to do something about changing it.I would guess you also have a strong social network and great relationships (something that's natural for some, not for me).
Yes I think that is true about me.
Bottom line: different things make different people feel happy and successful in life and people have different tools/ actions/ strategies to achieve those.
And on that note,I think we have exhausted our little hijack of the thread and better leave it there
Thanks for the debate
Cheers,
Paperpudding.
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Your past does not define your future / and that goes for your childhood and the way you were raised.
You have a choice about what you keep and what you don’t and how you let it affect you.
My advice is that if your past is affecting you now - see a therapist or talk to someone you can trust.
Get it off your chest.
Deal with it.
Look at patterns of how these issues affect you and why they make you feel the way you do.
Sometimes we choose to be around people who make us feel the same way we felt as a child or in a certain scenario, because we have been made to believe that is safe - but it’s not always the case.
So challenge yourself, find YOUR WHY, do what makes you happy and remove energy zapping people and forces from your life.
It’s hard work / yes. Can take years or even your whole life. But it will be worth it. Especially when others take a leaf out of your book.2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Just five things that I strongly believe influence success in anything.
I read a fantastic book by Jo Boaler called Limitless Mind. Most people look at the book and believe that it's geared toward teaching. It's actually a book on how your mind learns and how it's "limitless" if you believe that you learn from mistakes, welcome mistakes and learning plateaus, understand you will get through it eventually, learn collaboratively and believe that you can do it. Should be required reading for every teacher and high school student because it applies to life and it's all science based.
Years ago, they did a study with kids and followed them for years. The ability to put off instant gratification was the highest trait in those with the most success. That's something that's sorely lacking in today's parenting. We give kids (immediately) whatever the hell they want. That's actually child abuse in my honest opinion. You're setting your kids up for failure. Teach them, instead, good things come with sacrifice, hard work and patience. Make them wait on things. Don't hand them cell phones at 2.
Stanford University did a study years ago following people that did goal planning versus those that didn't. Those that did were widely more successful than those that didn't following them for around a decade (I believe). I've always been a strong believer in five year planning. Start with where you want to be and work backward. Franklin Planner seminars are great. Panda Planner is also a wonderful tool.
A support structure starting with parenting. Present parenting. Enough said. Give your kids at least a moral compass for starters. A strong community structure can certainly replace parents that aren't there.
Ability to communicate. And, I believe, this can be learned. My wife wasn't particularly good at school (she was dyslexic and it never got diagnosed). In adulthood, she's learned to spell, studied vocabulary, even taken up a lot of reading. I was a terrible/petrified public speaker. I joined Toastmasters and learned to communicate in front of others. After five years, I was the best speaker in my club. I was horrific to start and that's not an exaggeration.
I'm sure there's more but one other that comes to mind (I see this all the time as a high-level recruiter for over two decades) -- conflict resolution skills. I don't know where these went, but they are sorely, sorely needed in business. It's the most common ability I see lacking in the workforce, whether it's laziness, no one has ever taught them, intentional avoidance or immaturity. But people cannot address difficult decisions and confront others and tell them honestly and openly how they feel and that's a real shame. That's how things progress.
I think you're making a good, coherent argument here. Still, as you might guess, I have a few quibbles.
If the experiment you're talking about is the Stanford Marshmallow Experiment, my gut likes its conclusions a lot, based on personal experience with humans (including myself). However, there have been some quite thought-provoking critiques of that experiment, including a more recent variation on the experiment that tried to remedy some deficiencies in the original study's design, and ended up not replicating the previous experiment's conclusions (of course, there have been further critiques of that study as well . . . .). I want to believe the original, I really, really do.
I'm also not - in personal behavior - a fan of 5-year planning. I see that it can be very effective, but I think there are personal style issues, i.e., it's not the only way to achieve success. Personally, I tend to be more opportunity-oriented than plan-oriented.
Like you (or as I understand your comments here, at least), I believe that if people want some aspect of their life to change, they have to change it.
Personally, I tend to have a boatload more "it would be nice if" ideas than I can possibly play out in my life: I'm interested in way too many things, can slip toward dilettante-ism, even. Given some discontent to be remedied, or some open-ended desire to progress, I tend to shop around for the next opportunity that leads toward something I want. (That can be quite active seeking, but it's "what opportunities are available now that lead in some desirable direction", rather than "I have some specific place(s) I want to be in 5 years so I'll look for the next step in that direction".)
There's a bidirectional interplay between the opportunities that happen to present themselves and the goals that I happen to choose. I may end up never doing some thing that I long thought I wanted to do, but I also have ended up many times doing something that was really excellent/life-changing/delightful that I never would've thought to put in a 5-year plan (and quite possibly would've missed if I'd been really goal driven).
I suspect, though, that to the extent such an approach leads to "success", it's a type of success that they wouldn't have been looking for in the Stanford study looking at the role of goal planning. The approach I've found more natural is IMO very unlikely to lead one to become CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation, but IME has borne decent fruit in terms of personal satisfaction, contentment, happy life.
I agree that communication skills are important and useful, but it's interesting to me that the examples you mention are more about one side of the communication process, the part where we strive to project our thinking out into the world. To me, the essential other half is trying equally diligently to understand what other people are trying to communicate (even when they aren't necessarily being terrible effective at doing it), including things like active listening, empathy, etc. That side of the communication process, IMO, is super important to learning (and important to that in diverse ways!), for getting along with other people generally, and specifically to the conflict resolution skill that you do mention. Someone who can't listen well, isn't going to resolve many interpersonal conflicts.
I don't think any of what I've said above bears very strongly on Reenie's OP questions, though. I think the questions she's asking have extremely complex, nuanced answers in practice, with a variety of factors that can either compensate for deficiencies in other factors, multiply the positive or negative effects of other factors, and generally interact in complicated way. Those factors can be genetic, be related to upbringing, grow out of culture/subculture/religion, involve security, reflect adult role modeling (bad and good both), and all kinds of things. There's luck in that mix, both good and bad, too.
I'm not sure how I'd define "successful", but I feel "successful enough" in my own terms. If I go back to the old workhorse, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I have (and have had) the basic levels pretty well covered, and perhaps some closer to the top. Some of that comes from what I'd call privilege, but not the 'silver spoon' type. I was born in a lower middle class, blue collar, rural family, but they were people of good character, maturity, intelligence, and self-education (not vast amounts of formal education). (I'd be a better woman if I better lived up to them, frankly.) One of the biggest benefits they gave me, as I see my life now, was a rock-solid secure childhood: Secure in food/clothing/shelter, sure; but also emotionally and psychologically secure in major ways. That was a huge gift, and an excellent start.
Still, people succeed, by many definitions, without any of that foundation. The OP question is really hard, I think.3 -
@annpt77- as always, your points are all great. And, yes, listening is something important I didn't mention (but a very important part of Toastmasters that is built in). I've read Stephen Covey's Seven Habits until the pages are wore out. One of the basic tenants, of course, is listening. That's actually the greatest compliment, in my mind, any business consultant can hear -- "you were really listening to me...".
And yes, many of us, even those that grew up middle or lower middle class with simply the basic necessities and a two parent strong support system definitely had a leg up. My upbringing actually sounds a lot like yours.
And my five year plans have, many times, changed. That's always what you learn about five year plans. They are dynamic and you have to adapt to how life changes. That's actually part of the process. If you start with the end in mind -- what they actually teach you with Franklin Planner training is to imagine what you want people to say about you when you die. And also to write a descriptive narrative about yourself, how you see yourself, in present terms (even if you haven't reached those lofty goals yet). As you would imagine, monetary accomplishments aren't high on the list. It would be a very shallow person that says they want someone to say about them, "he had a lot of stuff...". That's certainly not what is in my planner as the end goal.
Those five year plans, if well designed, are more just longer term action plans bringing you closer to that final piece -- what you want to be remembered for. Top of my priorities were to be a good Father, Husband, friend and volunteer. Beyond that to make a difference with my work, be a mentor and donate much more to charitable endeavors. Also to live a healthy, active and social retirement. Pretty basic stuff and other than being a means to an end, none if it about stuff.
To your point about Renee's question, it's the classic nature versus nurture. I was a Psych major. I'm very sympathetic and empathetic to those factors and I've not been unexposed to hinderances myself -- my mom was a pill addict, there was severe depression and mental illness in my family as well. While we weren't dirt poor, there were times we had just crackers and Kroger Yellow Tag Peanut butter. But I wasn't ever abused, physically or mentally. My wife was as a child (verbally) and it was pretty brutal stuff at times.
But the thing is, there are levels of family dysfunction. Someone can be born very wealthy, financially speaking, and turn out terribly. Everyone has some levels of it growing up. Some much more so and, because of that, much more to overcome. Having been raised and living in So Ohio most of my life, I was witness to the ground zero, so to speak, of the heroin/fentanyl epidemic in the US. Cincinnati/Dayton area lost more people to drug overdoses than anywhere in the US, initially at least. I knew people very well that were affluent and had kids with every advantage you could imagine and still lost their kids to drug addiction/depression.
There are people that can overcome huge obstacles, for whatever reason, and achieve. I'm not sure what qualities makes those people be able to rise to the next level. In part, for me personally (not that I had to overcome much compared with some), with my mom being out of it most of the time, it was my academic achievements which got attention and I craved that. That and sports which I think helped me tremendously. I was socially awkward, which I had to adapt and overcome. The sports part helped with that.
If I wish I had anything more, in terms of support, would have been the knowledge and training that I came from a family of addiction (on one side) and also depression/mental health awareness. Because I've also suffered from both personally, I've talked to my kids honestly about both. Essentially giving them awareness that addiction and depression are prevalent in their genes and there's nothing wrong with them but the awareness is a great tool to have.
@rsrs35 - also all solid advice.
3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »(snip lots of good, useful, insightful stuff for reply length)
But the thing is, there are levels of family dysfunction. Someone can be born very wealthy, financially speaking, and turn out terribly. Everyone has some levels of it growing up. Some much more so and, because of that, much more to overcome. Having been raised and living in So Ohio most of my life, I was witness to the ground zero, so to speak, of the heroin/fentanyl epidemic in the US. Cincinnati/Dayton area lost more people to drug overdoses than anywhere in the US, initially at least. I knew people very well that were affluent and had kids with every advantage you could imagine and still lost their kids to drug addiction/depression.
(snip more goodness)
I'm aware this is perhaps a digression for this thread, though I'm not positive.
People often say that all families are dysfunctional, just in different ways or degrees. I guess that's true, in a statistical sense.
But, 100% sincerely, it just doesn't resonate for me, personally. I feel like I hit the parental/situational jackpot. I perceive my immediate family situation in childhood to have been near zero, maybe absolute zero, on the dysfunction scale. I literally can't imagine how it could have felt more loving, nurturing, and secure. I had no way to know it at the time, but looking back I think I was ridiculously, undeservedly lucky.
I didn't turn out to be that fortune 500 CEO, or Mother Theresa, or anything, so maybe a completely secure childhood is not 100% a good thing. Saps ambition? It felt great, though, and I think contributed to relative happiness and satisfaction in adulthood.1
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