Starting the Carnivore Diet

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Gator4RTR
Gator4RTR Posts: 119 Member
I am starting the Carnivore Diet and trying it for 30 days. I have read good things about how it can help me with a couple of health issues I am having. Are there any tips I need to know about that may not be discussed in books or in the YouTube videos? TIA
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  • feisty_bucket
    feisty_bucket Posts: 1,047 Member
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    Don't ask here; you're gonna get a bunch of nonsense.
    Look into The Blue Zones. These are people who live to be 100.

    Those findings were fraudulent:
    https://www.livescience.com/oldest-people-may-not-be-so-old.html
  • dsplace2010
    dsplace2010 Posts: 2 Member
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    [
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    Don't ask here; you're gonna get a bunch of nonsense.


    The bottom line is the carnivore diet is not healthy, heart healthy Orford cancer. Decades of prof are on hundreds of peer reviewed science journals.
    Stip listening to some dude claiming to have answers to getvyou tomorrow a program so he or she can profit

    A Medical Doctor just yesterday put me on a high protein 2000 Cal diet that very closely imitates the Carnivore Diet w/ lower fat content. This is to strengthen and build Muscle, because you can't do this with Fruits and Vegetables, we can get some nutrients with Fruits and Vegetables, but the real bottom-line is we are Carnivores and we need meat way more than we do fruits and vegetables. My suggestion would be to talk to your Doctor about the Carnivore Diet, then make your decision on trying it or not armed with information from a real professional, your Doctor.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    If you consume a diet now that would be considered 'balanced' with carbs higher as a percentage of your macros then 30 days might be a good transitional measure to lower your carb intake so that the final transition is easier. With that in mind I suggest more of a 90 day intervention.

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    [/quote] The bottom line is the carnivore diet is not healthy, heart healthy Orford cancer. Decades of prof are on hundreds of peer reviewed science journals.
    Stip listening to some dude claiming to have answers to getvyou tomorrow a program so he or she can profit[/quote]


    I still waiting for the study that shows animal protein to be the causality for heart disease or cancer.

  • Xierrax
    Xierrax Posts: 48 Member
    edited August 2022
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    I've been looking into this for a while and have seen plenty of evidence which suggests that a plant-based diet is more favourable to human health than a carnivore or omnivore diet. As always, this comes with a couple of disclaimers. It is absolutely possible to live and eat healthily with an omnivore diet; maybe even with a purely carnivore diet (although I'm not 100% certain on this one. Seems like you're missing a lot of nutrients here but I haven't looked into this too much). Yet research suggests that a healthy whole food plant based diet is usually healthier than a healthy and balanced omnivore diet. I try to give an overview and studies from a couple of perspectives below.

    Second caveat is that diets are highly unique and personal. The point, in my opinion, still stands that a plant-based diet should be favourable but tolerance and response to certain foods does differ from person to person. This is why opinions are so split when it comes to choosing the right diet. Response to a new diet also depends on your previous diet, of course. Some people claim that they feel better when they incorporate more meat in their diet, but sometimes these effects come from having eaten a lot of processed foods in the past which that person may have eliminated in the process. One example. Food response is also affected by the gut microbiome; as the bacteria in your gut process the nutrients from the foods you digest. If you have eaten a crappy diet for a long time, your microbiome may have to adapt and reintroduce those healthy bacteria first. Another example.

    Lastly, there is no food that *causes* a disease. Similarly, there is no food that cures a disease. All we can say is that eating a certain way increases or decreases the chance of developing X. Aside from sheer chance, genetics and lifestyle play an important role in your overall risk too.

    Food is a personal matter to most. Nobody likes to be told what they're supposed to eat. I believe balance is the key - and I still eat fish from time to time too, because currently I don't want to miss it. Hence, while I believe the plant based diet to be the healthiest, I'm not trying to push anybody to make this step. But I always try to share what I've learned over the years; maybe it helps some people find some clarity.

    Microbiome diversity has shown to be a good predictor of health. Generally, the more diverse your microbiome, the more resistant you are to certain diseases such as cancer and metabolic diseases. The positive effects of your microbiome are associated with bacteria which process fibres into short-chain fatty acids. That means, the more fibre (and the more diverse your fibre source), the better. There is virtually no fibre in meat.
    Source 1
    Source 2 (relating to colorectal cancer)

    Both in human and animal studies, it appears that a plant-based diet is associated with a decrease in mortality with regard to most diseases; usually more so than is observed with a diet higher in animal products

    For a more complete picture, this is one of the few carnivore studies I found which centres around the health perceptions of carnivores

    And I will also add those which suggest that increased meat intake may be associated with early onset of rheumatoid arthritis and risk of ulcerative colitis

    This post is already way longer than I had intended but I hope this serves as a nice introduction, at least from the plant-based perspective. I appreciate a lot of them are self-reported/observational studies and every study has its limitations; but maybe these trends help shine light and eventually, we have to decide for ourselves if we're convinced.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    My personal bias up front is I eat meat. All of the sources you provided are epidemiological and/or observational, which doesn't prove risk only association with literally hundreds of confounders in these types of studies. Also by saying an all plant based diet is a more favorable diet for humans thriving, isn't based on any evidence that I'm aware of and to the contrary early hominins as far back as australopithecus 3 million years ago consumed animal protein.


  • Xierrax
    Xierrax Posts: 48 Member
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    Re epidemiological/observational studies - True. It is difficult to design a study that takes all possible influencing factors into effect, especially over larger periods of time. This is often the best we can do. I'm not saying this is unanimous proof that a plant based diet is healthier/better, but the trends they showcase were enough for me to be convinced that eating plant-based likely is the right choice. Again, everybody has to decide this for themselves.

    Also want to say - absolutely true that in a long-term plant-based diets a few nutrients will have to be supplemented. And I agree that it's possible to live healthy on an omnivore diet; maybe healthier if you would be unhappy or struggling with either the flavours or limitations of a PB diet. Hardly any diet is consistently perfect, so the studies may reflect either extreme cases or short term effects. They often compare the ideal PB diet with the ideal or average omnivore/carnivore diet. For me, I'm willing to (eventually) make the effort to supplement, and prefer the taste of whole foods more. And I believe in this case you probably end up health*ier*. But if meat helps you stay off processed foods, then this is of course fine too. You do what works best for you.

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    Xierrax wrote: »
    Re epidemiological/observational studies - True. It is difficult to design a study that takes all possible influencing factors into effect, especially over larger periods of time. This is often the best we can do. I'm not saying this is unanimous proof that a plant based diet is healthier/better, but the trends they showcase were enough for me to be convinced that eating plant-based likely is the right choice. Again, everybody has to decide this for themselves.

    Also want to say - absolutely true that in a long-term plant-based diets a few nutrients will have to be supplemented. And I agree that it's possible to live healthy on an omnivore diet; maybe healthier if you would be unhappy or struggling with either the flavours or limitations of a PB diet. Hardly any diet is consistently perfect, so the studies may reflect either extreme cases or short term effects. They often compare the ideal PB diet with the ideal or average omnivore/carnivore diet. For me, I'm willing to (eventually) make the effort to supplement, and prefer the taste of whole foods more. And I believe in this case you probably end up health*ier*. But if meat helps you stay off processed foods, then this is of course fine too. You do what works best for you.

    Why would you think an animal based diet can't be based in whole foods and believe a plant based diet is by default a whole foods diet. I think that what your inferring and I find that strange. The vast majority of ultra and heavily processed foods are derived from plant material and contribute the most to chronic inflammation and disease but that doesn't mean that plant food is bad per se, it's about context and dosage. I also can't infer more the complete and utter nonsense epidemiology in nutrition is, and one of the main reasons nutrition is a minefield of misinformation. You simply can't attach risk to something without an intervention where you have a control, and when talking mortality, that intervention needs to last for decades and to the very end, which is impossible, period. You can hypothesis a possible outcome and design a suitable intervention to prove an hypothesis, but that's about it. What we do have where risk is assessed are RCT's and in nutrition they're very short in time so again we still can't infer longevity or mortality. Epidemiological studies are crack to main stream media and agenda's like veganism for example. Basically it's the weapon of mass confusion. imo.
  • Xierrax
    Xierrax Posts: 48 Member
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    Maybe poor phrasing. I don't believe that a plant based diet is by default a whole foods diet or that an omnivore diet doesn't include any or a healthy amount of whole foods. The reason I keep mentioning whole foods is that this is what I associate with the benefits of the plant based diet; not necessarily vegetarianism/veganism per se as I know these can be very unhealthy/unbalanced too depending on the person and what they choose to consume. And this is also why I'm saying it is absolutely possible to live healthy on an omnivore diet too. The only thing I believe is, according to the studies and trends I've seen is that I think a balanced wholefood plant-based diet is healthier than a balanced wholefood omnivore diet. But the bigger picture? Both are probably very healthy; much healthier than other more restrictive diets and diets which include processed foods and so on.

    And based on what you said, I don't think there is one study that proves it all either. As mentioned above, I don't see these as absolute truths. But I find these trends compelling. There are numerous, independent studies which look at the mortality of omnivores vs. vegetarians or vegans; which look at how an uptake in fibre influences disease outcome or occurrence, which compare the overall health of populations in which certain diets are prevalent. And they all seem to come to similar conclusions. A plant based diet might not be the ultimate cure or absolutely necessary to be healthy, but it seems to have influence enough for me to increase whichever small odds. I haven't seen as many studies which argue the opposite, rather studies which remain inconclusive.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    I think one of the confusing assessments that are conferred in these studies that generate all the confusion is associating the highest percentile of disease with people that eat the most meat. That particular demographic where disease is the highest also participate in a lifestyle that would be considered unhealthy to begin, so you end up with an association that can easily be manipulated to mean just about anything an author is trying to find. The confounders are always said to be a adjusted for which on it's own is disingenuous because again you would need a intervention and a control for each confounders to determine it's eventual outcome, so algorithms are used and the inputs are no better than an educated guess at best and a lie at worst to support why they're getting funded for the testing in the first place. Basically adjustments to confounders are no better than a one armed bandit in Las Vegas.

    Maybe what you need to find are studies and hopefully RCT's that compare a vegan diet to a vegetarian diet, a pescatarian diet, the so called Mediterranean diet and a low carb with animal protein/fat diet and I say low carb because it will be one that is generally much higher in whole foods. These comparisons and similar comparisons that could possibly conflict with ones beliefs and biases help to maintain an open mind and keeps one on a course that is scientific in nature as opposed to just looking at studies that support a particular view because on a personal level every time I believed something to be an absolute I've generally been wrong and a few of these beliefs lasted for a few years, which when I look back I kick myself and tell my present self I'll try not to do that in the future, but it is difficult not to have a few biases, no doubt.

  • brandyosu
    brandyosu Posts: 257 Member
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    I won't get into any of the debate above but here's a tip for OP. I'm diabetic and on a medically supervised Keto diet. So, NOT the Carnivore Diet but definitely low in carbs, which you are about to be. I apologize if this is something already covered by the program - I've never looked into the Carnivore Diet. Anyway, if you want to help ward off the initial headaches and exhaustion that tend to come along with cutting out carbs, you need to increase your sodium intake. I do this by drinking an electrolyte drink twice a day. Some people do it by drinking water with bouillon twice a day. And salt things to your taste. You may also want to consider a magnesium supplement. I just started taking one that is extended release. This helps with muscle cramping among other things.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,978 Member
    edited August 2022
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    VegjoyP wrote: »

    All these are opinions based on data gathering through food frequency questionnaires, not sure you knew that are not, so just thought I'd mention it. I do have the feeling though that that won't matter.

    Also when the term "risk" is assessed there's never a distinction between relative and absolute risk which is kind of important. For example, if a Statin manufacturer claimed that with statins you will reduce the risk of a heart related event by 35% but when you translate that into absolute risk it works out that if 1000 people took statins their whole life it would prevent 1 death in that cohort over that time period.

    Can you explain why Hong Kong who eat a lot of meat, and I believe they consume more meat than any other country also have the longest lifespan.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 27,981 Member
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    Not sure if you've already seen this YT video, but I love the Buff Dudes' "We Tried X Diet" videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4OmsKEWC10&t=278s
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,481 Member
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    Xierrax wrote: »
    Maybe poor phrasing. I don't believe that a plant based diet is by default a whole foods diet or that an omnivore diet doesn't include any or a healthy amount of whole foods. The reason I keep mentioning whole foods is that this is what I associate with the benefits of the plant based diet; not necessarily vegetarianism/veganism per se as I know these can be very unhealthy/unbalanced too depending on the person and what they choose to consume. And this is also why I'm saying it is absolutely possible to live healthy on an omnivore diet too. The only thing I believe is, according to the studies and trends I've seen is that I think a balanced wholefood plant-based diet is healthier than a balanced wholefood omnivore diet. But the bigger picture? Both are probably very healthy; much healthier than other more restrictive diets and diets which include processed foods and so on.

    And based on what you said, I don't think there is one study that proves it all either. As mentioned above, I don't see these as absolute truths. But I find these trends compelling. There are numerous, independent studies which look at the mortality of omnivores vs. vegetarians or vegans; which look at how an uptake in fibre influences disease outcome or occurrence, which compare the overall health of populations in which certain diets are prevalent. And they all seem to come to similar conclusions. A plant based diet might not be the ultimate cure or absolutely necessary to be healthy, but it seems to have influence enough for me to increase whichever small odds. I haven't seen as many studies which argue the opposite, rather studies which remain inconclusive.

    That seems pretty reasonable to me, as a rationale for your personal choices.

    I think there's a difference between finding evidence personally persuasive (even compelling), and using that evidence (which does have some reasoned critics) to try to persuade others that one's own path is the one right path.

    Personally, I know why I'm vegetarian, and I'd say sticking with it for 48+ years (when I wasn't raised that way) is evidence of commitment. I'm capable of explaining what I think makes it good, useful, healthful for me, without necessarily evangelizing for it as "best" or perfect for all . . . though I'm not going to do either of those in a thread where the OP is asking for tips about the carnivore diet.

    I don't personally believe that fully plant-based or vegetarian diets are inherently and always more healthful, or that they inevitably result in weight loss, and sometimes I'll say so. I don't think it's great to oversell, y'know? I feel like it's more likely to turn people off than persuade them, unless they're already partially on board or inclined.

    I do suspect that including a fair fraction of so-called whole foods in one's eating, and eating relatively high levels of veggies/fruits (high compared to population averages) is likely to be health-promoting, in general.

    (If I had solid evidence that short term carnivore was dangerous to health, I'd share it. But I have no such evidence. The studies that have been posted tend to be long-term longitudinal studies, self reports, correlative - not acute short term risks. Realistically, most people who adopt some diet that's unusual in their social context - let alone incompatible with their personal tastes/preferences - don't stick with that way of eating for very long. I've seen that personally: I've known a lot of people who tried vegetarianism. I know a few, like me, for whom it stuck long term . . . not many. That's why I'm focusing on acute risks in saying this. 🤷‍♀️)