Sourdough advice!
claireychn074
Posts: 1,608 Member
I’m just getting into making sourdough (made regular bread lots of times but new to sourdough). I need to create steam in my oven but I have a regular fan assisted electric oven. Lots of methods online, but would be good to hear first hand from anyone successful how you do it. Also struggling to score the bread as my starter (Bert) appears to make naturally wet loaves. They’re tasty and rise really well, but difficult to score as the dough attacks the knife. Give me your hints please!
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For the steam, I just place an old roasting tin on the oven floor or the bottom shelf when I put the oven on to heat. Then a minute or so before the risen loaf goes in I pour a litre of water into the, by now, very hot tin and close the oven. That provides plenty of steam to help with oven ‘spring’ and crust formation.
I used to have issues with slashing too, so frustrating when you see the risen loaf deflate before your eyes!
A few things you could try; sprinkle a little flour over the loaf and smooth gently over with your palms. This seems to absorb enough moisture on the surface to let you slash through a ‘skin’ rather than just have the blade drag through.
Also, be sure your blade is VERY sharp! I also experimented with oiling the blade with olive oil. Seemed to help with the drag. Are you using a knife or a proper baker’s lame?
In the end, though, I think it comes down to a sharp thin blade, practice and confidence! I rarely have issues now but it was definitely a learning curve!2 -
I haven’t got a lame but was considering getting one, so its interesting hearing you use one. My knives are not that sharp which may be part of the issue 🤔 I also wonder if I don’t shape my loaf tightly enough before cutting. It’s surprisingly different to making normal bread - I didn’t realise how much until I started playing around with it!0
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I don’t use a lame - like you I’ve been considering getting one (for years!)…research I did when I first started looking into one was inconclusive, especially for lames bought on Amazon for example. Advice I read was to purchase from a proper catering supplies company. Hence why I’ve never got around to it!
By the way, I’ve also read a packet of old fashioned razor blades is as good as a lame, I’ve never tried because I’m a wimp and I’m sure I’d lose a fingertip! But if you’re braver than I…worth a try!
Fortunately, around the time I was struggling with this my husband decided to buy a proper sharpening ‘thing’ (he wanted to sharpen chisels etc, but he also began sharpening my knives regularly. The knife I use has a medium length, shallow/narrow thin blade. I do tend to keep it just for this purpose because now he’s had the ‘thing’ awile he does tend to sigh when I ask him if he can sharpen it too often! 😂
So yes, if you know your knives aren’t very sharp then that’s likely the biggest problem you’re having.
As for the shaping, I totally agree, it’s harder to get that taut surface on a sourdough - much more of a ‘flowy’ dough altogether. I used a Banneton when I first made sourdough although that, too, has its learning curve! Getting the dough to turn out for baking without deflating was more of a nightmare than scoring a formed loaf!0 -
Well I’m glad to hear it’s not just me struggling with these things! Even slightly deflated it’s still incredibly tasty and it’s not going to waste, I just want it to actually look like a sourdough!0
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You should 'join' this site: https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/0
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That’s kind of good and horrifying to see in equal measures! Who knew there were SO many different ways to make sourdough??You should 'join' this site: https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/
I can’t decide if this is a good thing for someone with an obsessive nature or not 🤣
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Homemade sourdough (with a little salted butter!) is awesome! For steam, as soon as the loaves go in the oven I take a spray bottle with water and spray a few times. Close the oven. I do this a couple more times in the first 3-5 minutes of baking. Try to do this super quick so you don't lose the oven heat. For scoring, I've had the most success with a lame, nothing fancy just a basic one from Amazon does the job well.0
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If you have a big cast iron enameled dutch oven or something similar that is the best way to get a crusty loaf heat the dutch oven empty for an hour or so, When you are ready to bake quickly drop the loaf into the dutch oven (using a towel to llif it out of the banneton helps and put on the lid. The bread will make its own steam in the small container of the dutch oven as it bakes and the crust will get crisp. Take the lid off for the last 10 min if it isn’t brown enough. You can also just use a hot pizza stone and set the bread on it and then cover it with a cloche - a large pot or dutch oven turned upside down. I have also used a quart container of ice (just throw the ice in the bottom of the oven just as you put the bread in and it will melt and create steam, but I find that isn’t intense enough as the closed super hot baking compartment approach.
For scoring, use a razor or a lame. A knife doesn’t make thin enough cuts in my experience, And move quickly, firmly and decisively, Cut only once, No retracing.
good luck!1 -
I just use a roasting pan or all metal fry pan and pour in some boiling water from a kettle as I put my loaf into the preheated oven to cook. There is a technique I have just started using where you turn off your preheated oven for 8 minutes as you put the loaf in to get maximum oven kick. After 8 minutes you go back to regular temperature and finish the bake. It does seem to work well from my own testing. This guy goes on a bit but here is the info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZJMPq0DvXE 1 -
BarbaraHelen2013 wrote: »(snip)
By the way, I’ve also read a packet of old fashioned razor blades is as good as a lame, I’ve never tried because I’m a wimp and I’m sure I’d lose a fingertip! But if you’re braver than I…worth a try!
(snip)
Maybe you already know this, but as an old-fashioned person, I'd point out that single-edge razor blades have one "safe", thicker, easy-to-hold edge. And they're really cheap. You can get them at Walmart, Amazon, a lot of home improvement stores, craft stores, more.
Some brands will come in a handy protective multi-blade dispenser pack that's safer in storage, too.
Diversely handy around the house, as a bonus.
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I didn’t even know you could get single edge razor blades! 😂 All I’m familiar with are the double edged blades that used to be used in safety razors before disposable razors became the more standard thing to use to shave legs/underarms!
This is what I think of when I picture a razor blade.
I have seen something similar to your picture sold as a glass scraping blade, and have even used one, years ago.. however it’s never crossed my mind that that would work perfectly well!0 -
Sinisterbarbie1 wrote: »If you have a big cast iron enameled dutch oven or something similar that is the best way to get a crusty loaf heat the dutch oven empty for an hour or so, When you are ready to bake quickly drop the loaf into the dutch oven (using a towel to llif it out of the banneton helps and put on the lid. The bread will make its own steam in the small container of the dutch oven as it bakes and the crust will get crisp. Take the lid off for the last 10 min if it isn’t brown enough.
This is what I do. I have a regular cast iron Dutch oven.
I preheat it for one hour.
I’ve read that a fully preheated-as in for a long time preheated- oven and preheated pot are necessary.
Carefully put the risen dough in and cover.
For me it bakes much faster this way so keep an eye out if trying this method for the first time.
Bread drops right out of the Dutch oven when done.
Be sure to open the lid AWAY away from you to prevent steam burns.
And if you have any leftover whey floating around after yogurt making, substitute it for water. Use and pre-warm it same as you would with water. It will make your loaf rise better and taste tangier.
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What I am enjoying is that eating the less-than-perfect evidence is not a chore 🤣🤣1
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claireychn074 wrote: »What I am enjoying is that eating the less-than-perfect evidence is not a chore 🤣🤣
I got this amazing serrated knife off Amazon and I can cut a cooled loaf crazy thin and even. In my world lots of wafer slices is much more mental satisfying than one chunk or thick slice because thin slices visually spread out all over the plate.0 -
springlering62 wrote: »claireychn074 wrote: »What I am enjoying is that eating the less-than-perfect evidence is not a chore 🤣🤣
I got this amazing serrated knife off Amazon and I can cut a cooled loaf crazy thin and even. In my world lots of wafer slices is much more mental satisfying than one chunk or thick slice because thin slices visually spread out all over the plate.
Ahh I’m the opposite. I like a big thick chunk, but then cut into soldiers so that it can be dipped into olive oil and balsamic vinegar. It’s amazing with the dip. But thin slices work really well soaked in egg for breakfast eggy bread, with Greek yoghurt and fruit.
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Sourdough update: have experimented lots with the recipe, cooking styles and handling. So far I can confidently say don’t waste money on a lame from Amazon (I did, poor quality). You either need a proper baker’s one or just sharpen your knives (I did that in the end and it works). I use less water than most recipes and it means I can handle the dough but it’s not quite as airy as I’d like: the bread proofing baskets didn’t work for me, and I only use a little wholemeal flour rather than doing a full wholemeal loaf as otherwise it doesn’t rise at all. Even the semi-disaster loaves freeze well and make great breadcrumbs, and my neighbours are willing to dispose of evidence too.
Lots of experimentation still required, but it’s terrific fun! 😀0 -
Interesting to hear that you’ve come to the same conclusion about Lames bought from Amazon! After this thread I did go and look again at them since it’s some years since I originally rejected their selection. Still couldn’t bring myself to click the ‘add to basket’ button based on reviews. I feel vindicated! 😂
Super sharp knives are the way to go! Which reminds me it’s about time I smiled sweetly at my husband when asking him to do mine again! ☺️
I agree on the wholemeal issue, too. I find if I go any higher than a 200g wholemeal/300g strong white mix then it does impact the rising negatively. Likewise with Rye and Spelt flours - less gluten = less rise.1 -
Yes you were completely right - I just lulled myself into believing that a lame would solve my dough issues 🤣 when it didn’t, I sharpened a knife and that worked. I do think a proper baker’s lame would be great, but the one I ordered is flimsy and the dough grabs the blade, pulling it off. It’s going to be interesting to see how the colder temperatures now affect the dough.0
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Have you tried - if you're interested in trying - adding some amount of vital wheat gluten at the same time as increasing the whole wheat flour?
Truth in advertising: I don't make sourdough bread. But I've been experimenting with pizza dough, adding vital wheat gluten to gain the rising qualities (and chewiness, which I like in pizza crust), alongside whole wheat flour for a flavor (and micro-texture) I prefer, plus chickpea/soy/other legume flour for extra protein. I don't think the specific proportions I use for that dough would help you because it's very different. I overshot on my last attempt, but the one before that was pretty good.0 -
I’ve never heard of vital wheat gluten - I’ll have to look it up! I’m happy to try anything, it’s a tasty way to experiment 😀1
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I make about 4 boules of sourdough bread every couple of weeks or so (usually 2 plain and 2 cranberry-walnut) using the Tartine Bakery formula and method. Even after 2+ years of making sourdough, it's taken me this long to realize that when I had slack dough, it usually came from over-proofing. I used to let my dough rise after shaping for a couple of hours before even putting it in the refrigerator for the second rise. Lately, just after shaping, I put the bannetons and whatever other vessel I'm using to shape in the refrigerator right away. It's much easier to score the dough when it's cold. I do use a lame from Amazon, but basically it's a stick that you attach a razor blade to it.
My formula is 45% AP flour, 45% Bread flour and 10% Whole Wheat flour, 20% (100% hydration) pre-ferment, 75% water and 2% salt. The bread flour I find also gives the bread some good strength and always get some pretty good rise out of it. I tried using all AP + WW, to save some money on flour, but sadly the bread flour really is needed (at least for me) to truly get good rise.
I think that the larger proportion of Whole Wheat flour would necessitate changing the hydration level and overall makes a softer dough.
I do use a dutch oven to get the effect of a steam oven, but have also done the roasting pan with ice cubes underneath my baking stone when I do ciabatta. For the ice cube method, you only need it for the first 15 minutes, then I take it out of the oven and drop the temp down for the rest of the bake. All your oven spring comes in the first 15-20 minutes regardless if it is in a dutch oven or using the steam method.1 -
Have you tried - if you're interested in trying - adding some amount of vital wheat gluten at the same time as increasing the whole wheat flour?
Truly a lightbulb moment here! I bought Vital Wheat Gluten from an online retailer (WholeFoodsOnline I think) to make Seitan and discovered I don’t really like the texture (too meaty and fibrous) so I have the remainder languishing in the cupboard. I don’t know if it would work to up the gluten content for the lower gluten flours to help in bread making but I’m definitely going to do a bit of research and experiment with it! 😊
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I use liquid whey leftover from making skyr or yogurt in leiu of water when making a no-knead loaf.
The last batch if skyr is pretty tart because I forgot and left it separating in the pot longer than normal.
But the tart and sour whey made the best loaf yet. For a no-knead, it has a really good flavor. They’re usually pretty bland. Very sour-dough’Ish.1 -
Loads of great ideas, here! I am another who cooks boules in a preheated dutch oven, which does the steaming for me. But, I'm planning on moving on to other shapes, so these other steaming methods will be helpful. @enlightenme3 - cranberry walnut sound amaaaaazing, can you share how much you add?0
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Loads of great ideas, here! I am another who cooks boules in a preheated dutch oven, which does the steaming for me. But, I'm planning on moving on to other shapes, so these other steaming methods will be helpful. @enlightenme3 - cranberry walnut sound amaaaaazing, can you share how much you add?
I add 200 grams each of chopped walnuts and craisins - adding right before the second round of stretch and folds. It takes a few rounds for it to all get incorporated, but it does eventually.0 -
Thanks! I'll give this a try with my next batch!enlightenme3 wrote: »I add 200 grams each of chopped walnuts and craisins - adding right before the second round of stretch and folds. It takes a few rounds for it to all get incorporated, but it does eventually.
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BarbaraHelen2013 wrote: »Have you tried - if you're interested in trying - adding some amount of vital wheat gluten at the same time as increasing the whole wheat flour?
Truly a lightbulb moment here! I bought Vital Wheat Gluten from an online retailer (WholeFoodsOnline I think) to make Seitan and discovered I don’t really like the texture (too meaty and fibrous) so I have the remainder languishing in the cupboard. I don’t know if it would work to up the gluten content for the lower gluten flours to help in bread making but I’m definitely going to do a bit of research and experiment with it! 😊
I too have lots of a bag of Vital Wheat Gluten leftover from making seitan. I believe I added 1 t VWG per 1 C of all purpose flour to create a substitute for bread flour.
https://www.savorysimple.net/how-to-make-cake-flour/#:~:text=Bread flour ingredients: Vital wheat,What is this?&text=You can add it to,essentially creating homemade bread flour.
I think I got it for much less at the supermarket, but here it is online:
https://smile.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Gluten-22-ounce/dp/B000QSL51E/1 -
Sinisterbarbie1 wrote: »If you have a big cast iron enameled dutch oven or something similar that is the best way to get a crusty loaf heat the dutch oven empty for an hour or so, When you are ready to bake quickly drop the loaf into the dutch oven (using a towel to lift it out of the banneton helps and put on the lid. The bread will make its own steam in the small container of the dutch oven as it bakes and the crust will get crisp. Take the lid off for the last 10 min if it isn’t brown enough. You can also just use a hot pizza stone and set the bread on it and then cover it with a cloche - a large pot or dutch oven turned upside down. I have also used a quart container of ice (just throw the ice in the bottom of the oven just as you put the bread in and it will melt and create steam, but I find that isn’t intense enough as the closed super hot baking compartment approach.
For scoring, use a razor or a lame. A knife doesn’t make thin enough cuts in my experience, And move quickly, firmly and decisively, Cut only once, No retracing.
good luck!
I love the Cook's Illustrated Almost No Knead Bread, which uses a Dutch oven. That recipe is behind a paywall. This is almost the same, but uses a cloche, so the shape is different, but the technique is very similar.
https://breadtopia.com/cooks-illustrated-almost-no-knead/0 -
claireychn074 wrote: »I’m just getting into making sourdough (made regular bread lots of times but new to sourdough). I need to create steam in my oven but I have a regular fan assisted electric oven. Lots of methods online, but would be good to hear first hand from anyone successful how you do it. Also struggling to score the bread as my starter (Bert) appears to make naturally wet loaves. They’re tasty and rise really well, but difficult to score as the dough attacks the knife. Give me your hints please!
I use the self steaming Dutch oven method above but would certainly try the pan of water method other posters mentioned.
Since I bake in the winter and prefer the temperature in my house much lower than "normal," I proof in the oven, where I make it warmer and moister by adding boiling water to a 8x8 pan and adding it to the (cold) oven when I stick my loaf in to proof.
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/baking-101-what-is-proofing-learn-how-to-proof-breads-and-other-baked-goods
Proofing Glossary: 11 Baking Terms You Should Know
9. A proofer (aka proofing oven, proofing cabinet, dough proofer, proofing drawer, or proof box) is a warm area (70-115°F) designed to maximize proofing by keeping dough warm and humid. You can DIY a proofing box by placing a loaf pan at the bottom of the oven and pouring 3 cups boiling water into the pan. Place the bread on the rack above, and keep the oven door closed. Do not turn on or heat the oven at all—the hot water will keep the closed oven warm and moist.0 -
This was a dangerous thread for me to read as when the weather gets cold here in Massachusetts, it feels like baking season and I have problems moderating home made baked goods.
Just consider the batch of gingersnaps I made yesterday. I was rushing to get out of the house and foolishly stored 24 of them in a tin in my room instead of someplace less accessible. I'm not even going to admit how many are left today...
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