Fun with time-restricted feeding (TRF)

Options
13

Replies

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited October 2023
    Options
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32480126/

    Eating out of phase with daily circadian rhythms induces metabolic desynchrony in peripheral metabolic organs and may increase chronic disease risk. Time-restricted eating (TRE) is a dietary approach that consolidates all calorie intake to 6- to 10-h periods during the active phase of the day, without necessarily altering diet quality and quantity. TRE reduces body weight, improves glucose tolerance, protects from hepatosteatosis, increases metabolic flexibility, reduces atherogenic lipids and blood pressure, and improves gut function and cardiometabolic health in preclinical studies. This review discusses the importance of meal timing on the circadian system, the metabolic health benefits of TRE in preclinical models and humans, the possible mechanisms of action, the challenges we face in implementing TRE in humans, and the possible consequences of delaying initiation of TRE.

    @neanderthin to me "Eating out of phase with daily circadian rhythms" suggests that eating in phase would only be done during daylight hours, but I could not find a definition in the abstract or elsewhere. Thoughts?

    This article alludes to circadian rhythm fasting being "earlier" in the day, but does not specifically mention daylight.

    https://www.sleepfoundation.org/nutrition/circadian-rhythm-fasting

    ...Circadian rhythm fasting is a form of time-restricted eating (TRE), another sub-type of intermittent fasting. In this type of fasting, a person eats only during specific hours of the day, such as between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. Unlike other types of intermittent fasting, time-restricted eating does not involve intentionally restricting the amount of calories a person consumes, only the hours during which they consume them. Time-restricted eating is consistent every day, so people practicing it do not go full days without eating.

    Although circadian rhythm fasting overlaps with the time-restricted eating sub-type of intermittent fasting, it has the more specific purpose of aligning a person’s eating schedule with their natural circadian rhythm. As a result, circadian rhythm fasting is a form of time-restricted eating that begins earlier in the day. There are also time-restricting eating plans that involve eating later in the day. These two types of fasting are called early and late time-restricted eating, and only the early type aligns eating with the circadian rhythm.

    *********************

    When I was in Costa Rica, I mostly ate during the daylight, as we had no electricity. I did drop a size without trying, but I do attribute that to lack of refrigeration and calorie dense foods like cheese, pizza, ice cream, etc., and a plethora of low calorie fruit and veggies, and filling rice & beans.

    I've never heard of circadian rhythm fasting. I follow a Dr. Satchin Panda PhD who heads up the clinic in the Salk Institute for both animal and human studies of the subject and is actually the person that coined the phrase "Time restricted Feeding" not to be confused with intermittent fasting back in 2016 I think, anyway here's a link. Dr. Panda always emphasizes that calories must be kept equal, and in ad libitum environments. As far as what's better late or early TRF is still up for debate, mostly it's the power of the studies and of course simply not enough data, but I suspect one or the other will show some advantages/disadvantages.

    https://salk.edu/scientist/satchidananda-panda/

    Here's a pretty basic layman's version of TRF with Dr. Bret Scher.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Mj-qleik1P0&t=1926s

    To answer your question. The suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) is basically the super clock that controls all clocks with all cells. This is effectively stimulated by the optic nerve (chiasm) and it's basically light and dark cycles that are coordinated within our circadian rhythm. Here's a fairly thorough description.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suprachiasmatic_nucleus


    Shift work would constitute eating out of phase with our circadian rhythm, so I thought you might be interested in this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work_sleep_disorder








  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    Options
    @neanderthin to me "Eating out of phase with daily circadian rhythms" suggests that eating in phase would only be done during daylight hours, but I could not find a definition in the abstract or elsewhere. Thoughts?

    You or someone might also be interested in a more detailed video of TRF and here Dr. Panda talks with Andrew at the Huberman Lab Podcast that covers it all, pretty much. A good one worth watching imo
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=7R3-3HR6-u4

  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,002 Member
    Options
    That pup has the, "What fresh trouble can I cause today!?!" look about him. :lol:

    :flowerforyou:

    squee
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
    Options
    cmriverside wrote: »
    That pup has the, "What fresh trouble can I cause today!?!" look about him. :lol:

    He's just like a toddler. He's sweet in the morning and a Tasmanian Devil in the evening. He's usually happy to go into his crate and sleep from 7PM to 7AM without a peep, which is amazing. Probably because he's growing at an amazing rate right now.

    Of mild interest on the TRF front: Yesterday, I was very hungry at breakfast, so I had my usual breakfast (~500kcals). I had kind of a big dinner that day, and I found I wasn't hungry the following morning, so I skipped breakfast. I didn't miss it at all!

    Does any one else just take it as it comes or do they stick to a strict

    And: my weight is stable, but not reducing. I think I'll need more time to exercise to get my weight to go back down.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
    Options
    D'oh! I just figured out that the MFP app has an IF timer. For some reason, I thought the menu option for "Intermittent Fasting" just gave you advice, but there it is, it adds a timer to your diary. I like the concept: When you're done eating for the day, you start the fasting timer. It's a nice way to declare "the party's over!" Also, it makes it easier to adapt to various situations (early or late dinner). Sweet!

    The reason I found it is that, although I'm pretty used to skipping breakfast and eating between 12 - 8PM, I'm not losing any weight, because I'm just eating my full day's calories in that time window. Still, I like the way I feel in the morning when I skip breakfast. I feel sort of powerful, like I've conquered my demons, or something.

    But, I need to start tracking. I'm starting to exercise more, but nothing like I was doing pre-puppy! But, my eating attitudes are set for about 45min of exercise most days, which I'm not doing.
  • tulips_and_tea
    tulips_and_tea Posts: 5,711 Member
    Options
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    That pup has the, "What fresh trouble can I cause today!?!" look about him. :lol:

    He's just like a toddler. He's sweet in the morning and a Tasmanian Devil in the evening. He's usually happy to go into his crate and sleep from 7PM to 7AM without a peep, which is amazing. Probably because he's growing at an amazing rate right now.

    Of mild interest on the TRF front: Yesterday, I was very hungry at breakfast, so I had my usual breakfast (~500kcals). I had kind of a big dinner that day, and I found I wasn't hungry the following morning, so I skipped breakfast. I didn't miss it at all!

    Does any one else just take it as it comes or do they stick to a strict

    And: my weight is stable, but not reducing. I think I'll need more time to exercise to get my weight to go back
    down.

    I've always skipped breakfast, as food in the morning doesn't appeal to me, but there are occasional "off" days where I feel hungry early and then I'll be eating my lunch at 10:30 am! Doesn't happen often, but listening to your body is much more important than keeping to a strict eating schedule, in my opinion.

    Glad you're still posting about your experience with this! I'm sure many find it helpful.
  • Catewillow
    Catewillow Posts: 5 Member
    Options
    :) IF has helped me lose over 22kg - almost 50 pounds since June 30th! I love it! I’m also 55 next year
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
    Options
    Another "does anyone care?" update:

    I'm still at it! And I still haven't lost any weight!

    For some reason, I still like the challenge of waiting until noon to eat as well as stopping eating by 8. It seems to awaken my body in the morning and I have a lot of energy. Although, sometimes I'm hugely tired after lunch. (People might say that means I'm eating too many carbs at lunch, but actually my lunch is fairly lo-carb.)

    I've started using the IF feature in MFP, although I often forget to start and stop it. It's only mildly helpful, in my experience.

    For some reason, I just can't get motivated to track these days. This 100% explains why I'm not losing weight! But, I'm not gaining either, and I'm not at a particularly unhealthy weight, although being lighter has its advantages, in terms of jogging, etc.
  • mmatcha_latte
    mmatcha_latte Posts: 123 Member
    edited November 2023
    Options
    For what it's worth, I've done 18:6 fasting for about 10 years now, and although it helps curb bad habits of mine, I don't really lose weight with it unless I'm tracking calories 😢 although I find it so much easier to restrict calories when I'm only eating two meals per day. My meals feel hearty and filling and I don't feel deprived that way, so I'm more likely to stick with the counting and restriction. I'd personally rather have two big meals than graze or snack all day since it stimulates my hunger even more. It's also less to track!

    I eat my first meal at noon and usually have dinner at 5 or 5:30 pm so that I can stop eating by 6pm. I try to stay busy for the few hours between lunch and dinner, which keeps me from snacking, and then my window closes at 6 pm.

    It takes time to adjust to the schedule but by now it's just my routine and lifestyle so I don't have to think much about it. Starting out, I'd drink lots of water or plain tea in the morning for satiation and then soon after dinner I'd brush my teeth to stop urges for snacking and that helped a lot until I got used to the schedule.

    There are also other health benefits to fasting, although some of them don't kick in until you've been fasting for longer periods of time. Autophagy is one and definitely worth looking up!
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,228 Member
    Options
    neanderthin wrote: »
    As far as what's better late or early TRF is still up for debate, mostly it's the power of the studies and of course simply not enough data, but I suspect one or the other will show some advantages/disadvantages.

    The anecdotes I see on MFP is practically all people mentioning TRF choose late.

    Seeing a huge discrepancy between these two modes has me curious that it may effect success and outcomes.

    The late people report disinterest in early eating, or an inability to restrict in the late part of the day. It's curious, and I hope to understand more about this overwhelming preference for late.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
    Options
    @chris_in_cal : For me, it's just because I'm working and thus distracted from food in the morning. I'm relaxing in the evening, so that's when I want to eat.

    @mmatcha_latte : 18:6 is one of the clinical protocols described in the paper I listed at the top of the thread. They showed that people lose around 10% of their body weight pretty consistently on that regime. You may already have had the benefit, so it's working to keep you on maintenance, which isn't a bad thing! It's pretty clear that 16:8 is keeping me in maintenance at about 10lbs above my goal weight. I think 18:6 would probably induce some weight loss for me. I'd be rushing home from work to get my dinner in before 6PM!

    Actually, now that I think of it, I'm usually done eating by 7:30. So, I'm really doing 15.5:8.5. 😀
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    Options
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    As far as what's better late or early TRF is still up for debate, mostly it's the power of the studies and of course simply not enough data, but I suspect one or the other will show some advantages/disadvantages.

    The anecdotes I see on MFP is practically all people mentioning TRF choose late.

    Seeing a huge discrepancy between these two modes has me curious that it may effect success and outcomes.

    The late people report disinterest in early eating, or an inability to restrict in the late part of the day. It's curious, and I hope to understand more about this overwhelming preference for late.

    TRF wasn't designed as a calorie restriction method but instead a pattern of eating. The studies on TRF will always be ad libitum as it relates to calories. I know here on MFP some people seem to feel it's a good strategy to shorten the window to consume and that works for some people and some do eat less but that isn't the data they are controlling for. TRF is about how the body interacts hormonally and physiologically as it relates to our circadian rhythm and that is what I was talking about and not about weight loss, although that is one of the effects they look at with early and late TRF. Cheers
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,382 Member
    Options
    I suspect the skew toward late eating may also be influenced by culture. It's based on my experience so biased, but it seems like people are more likely to eat breakfast alone (or at least not from a shared common meal), but to eat supper/dinner in the evening in more of a family or social setting.

    To the extent that may be a common pattern, skipping dinner might be harder from the standpoint of watching others eat (FOMO), maybe needing to prepare food for others if one is the family cook, and possibly provoking more of dispiriting push-back, questioning, or comment from family members.

    I'm speculating, though.
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,228 Member
    Options
    neanderthin wrote: »
    TRF is about how the body interacts hormonally

    Hormonal effects which happen due to TRF (if they do happen) could be the same regardless of whether it is an early or late TRF, or it may be different.

    If hormonal differences for early vs. late are different, (if there are any differences at all) what is the difference?

    This possibility has me curious.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited November 2023
    Options
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    TRF is about how the body interacts hormonally

    Hormonal effects which happen due to TRF (if they do happen) could be the same regardless of whether it is an early or late TRF, or it may be different.

    If hormonal differences for early vs. late are different, (if there are any differences at all) what is the difference?

    This possibility has me curious.

    I could muck around giving you my take on it but this pretty much says what I want to convey.

    https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262456/

    Eating out of phase with daily circadian rhythms induces metabolic desynchrony in peripheral metabolic organs and may increase chronic disease risk. Time-restricted eating (TRE) is a dietary approach that consolidates all calorie intake to 6- to 10-h periods during the active phase of the day, without necessarily altering diet quality and quantity. TRE reduces body weight, improves glucose tolerance, protects from hepatosteatosis, increases metabolic flexibility, reduces atherogenic lipids and blood pressure, and improves gut function and cardiometabolic health in preclinical studies. This review discusses the importance of meal timing on the circadian system, the metabolic health benefits of TRE in preclinical models and humans, the possible mechanisms of action, the challenges we face in implementing TRE in humans, and the possible consequences of delaying initiation of TRE.

    EDIT: I see I already posted this.
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,228 Member
    Options
    You addressed all of my "if" qualifications, thanks. So I'll go with the assumption TRF induces positive health outcomes.

    Back to my main interest of early vs. late TRF windows, the only way I see your post touched on it is here.
    neanderthin wrote: »
    ... during the active phase of the day, without necessarily altering diet quality and quantity.

    What is their clinical definition of "active phase of the day." My seat of the pants would be they found their positive results from the people eating for the 6 to 10 hours after waking up.

    Though perhaps this study just didn't take this distinction into consideration. Again, perhaps there is no difference, but I am curious if there is.

    The whole idea of circadian is very important, it is an imposed structure by the sun on our lives that we modern people fight against. Often to our detriment.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited November 2023
    Options
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    You addressed all of my "if" qualifications, thanks. So I'll go with the assumption TRF induces positive health outcomes.

    Back to my main interest of early vs. late TRF windows, the only way I see your post touched on it is here.
    neanderthin wrote: »
    ... during the active phase of the day, without necessarily altering diet quality and quantity.

    What is their clinical definition of "active phase of the day." My seat of the pants would be they found their positive results from the people eating for the 6 to 10 hours after waking up.

    Though perhaps this study just didn't take this distinction into consideration. Again, perhaps there is no difference, but I am curious if there is.

    The whole idea of circadian is very important, it is an imposed structure by the sun on our lives that we modern people fight against. Often to our detriment.

    Yeah, "active phase of the day" would be daylight hours. The science of TRF within chronobiology is fairly new so the data on when people eat has never, ever been asked or obviously studied, so it's going to be a while before we fully understand all the nuance. Stoking the fire all day long with food and understanding how metabolically energy is assimilated and the strain put on the body there needs to be a time, when we sleep to relax, repair and regenerate on a molecular level and TRF is asking a simple question. What time frame and when is more optimal for this to happen and is there any downside if we don't follow at least a basic timeline. Early/late would be more preference based on social and cultural factors but I think and believe that eating close to our sleeping time and where all this regeneration happens as we sleep is probably not optimal, but we really don't know for now.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
    Options
    It's been not quite a week, so perhaps I can say that I'm still at it.

    I've been reading through this article. If half of this is true, I'm going to live forever!

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8754590/

    I particularly like this quote:

    "Fasting can stimulate neurogenesis and enhance synaptic plasticity, which can regulate pain sensations and enhance cognitive function and the antiaging ability of the brain. These beneficial effects may be associated with changes in neurotrophic factors and neurotransmitters."

    Woah, sign me up!

Categories