Not pleased by my total cholesterol

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  • saintor1
    saintor1 Posts: 376 Member
    edited October 2023
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    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited October 2023
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.

    They, Harvard didn't determine any risk at all. This is just opinion based on association. For risk in a study you need a control group or groups, there were none.

    Participants filled out the questionnaire at the start of the study and every four years after that for 30 years.

    The food frequency questionnaire was used to develop a Portfolio Diet Score (PDS), which assigns points for consuming higher amounts of approved foods and subtracts points for consuming foods that negatively impact cholesterol levels, such as saturated fats or trans fats.


    Harvard determined what they wanted out of the study then designed it to conform to their hypothesis, typical really, and far too much of this type of science in nutrition that really isn't science. imo
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,635 Member
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.

    They, Harvard didn't determine any risk at all. This is just opinion based on association. For risk in a study you need a control group or groups, there were none.

    Participants filled out the questionnaire at the start of the study and every four years after that for 30 years.

    The food frequency questionnaire was used to develop a Portfolio Diet Score (PDS), which assigns points for consuming higher amounts of approved foods and subtracts points for consuming foods that negatively impact cholesterol levels, such as saturated fats or trans fats.


    Harvard determined what they wanted out of the study then designed it to conform to their hypothesis, typical really, and far too much of this type of science in nutrition that really isn't science. imo

    I'll give you that, for sure. The amount of outright fraud they've found within the university research community is astounding. Particularly within the realms of nutrition and, sadly, psychology. But that's a whole other issue that's probably best for me not to get into here.
  • saintor1
    saintor1 Posts: 376 Member
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.

    They, Harvard didn't determine any risk at all. This is just opinion based on association. For risk in a study you need a control group or groups, there were none.

    Participants filled out the questionnaire at the start of the study and every four years after that for 30 years.

    The food frequency questionnaire was used to develop a Portfolio Diet Score (PDS), which assigns points for consuming higher amounts of approved foods and subtracts points for consuming foods that negatively impact cholesterol levels, such as saturated fats or trans fats.


    Harvard determined what they wanted out of the study then designed it to conform to their hypothesis, typical really, and far too much of this type of science in nutrition that really isn't science. imo

    Why do you accuse them of wrongdoing?... because it doesn't match your little agenda? lol This is NOT just another one's opinion. It is from acknowledged professionals at Harvard and it has been published in American Heart Association’s journal. Great credentials to me.

    This was not a scientific experience, and no, a control group is not required. It is a study / research and supporting evidences as empirical observation is admitted, given the right methods. The data is MASSIVE here;
    The team conducted their research on more than 210,000 healthcare professionals enrolled in three different nationally representative studies into risk factors for severe diseases that began recruiting in the 1980s.

    Not surprised by their results. This is where science stands; the lower in the range of ldl & total cholesterol, the rarer the cardial diseases, all around the globe. Proven again.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited October 2023
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    saintor1 wrote: »
    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.

    They, Harvard didn't determine any risk at all. This is just opinion based on association. For risk in a study you need a control group or groups, there were none.

    Participants filled out the questionnaire at the start of the study and every four years after that for 30 years.

    The food frequency questionnaire was used to develop a Portfolio Diet Score (PDS), which assigns points for consuming higher amounts of approved foods and subtracts points for consuming foods that negatively impact cholesterol levels, such as saturated fats or trans fats.


    Harvard determined what they wanted out of the study then designed it to conform to their hypothesis, typical really, and far too much of this type of science in nutrition that really isn't science. imo

    Why do you accuse them of wrongdoing?... because it doesn't match your little agenda? lol This is NOT just another one's opinion. It is from acknowledged professionals at Harvard and it has been published in American Heart Association’s journal. Great credentials to me.

    This was not a scientific experience, and no, a control group is not required. It is a study / research and supporting evidences as empirical observation is admitted, given the right methods. The data is MASSIVE here;
    The team conducted their research on more than 210,000 healthcare professionals enrolled in three different nationally representative studies into risk factors for severe diseases that began recruiting in the 1980s.

    Not surprised by their results. This is where science stands; the lower in the range of ldl & total cholesterol, the rarer the cardial diseases, all around the globe. Proven again.

    I didn't accuse Harvard of wrongdoing, I said a study of this design can't assess risk properly. They basically told people to eat certain foods and to remove certain foods( it's in your link) then followed them for 30 years using food frequency questionnaires every 4 years. They then extrapolated a risk reduction of 0.14% against the SAD diet, and not specifically any individual nutrient like saturated fat or red meat but they did say to reduce those and the foods they asked people to remove altogether are all plant based processed foods with the exception of processed meats and this is also relative risk and not absolute risk and many medical research professionals (PhD's) believe that only absolute risk should be used and not relative risk. Basically epidemiological studies like this Harvard one can only show associations and correlations and they cannot prove that a link is causative.

    Here's the foods they wanted to be added and removed from the diet for heart health.

    TO YOUR 'DAILY PORTFOLIO'
    Fruits: avocados, pears, apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, peaches
    Vegetables: okra, eggplant, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, turnips
    Nuts: almonds, walnuts, cashews, pistachios
    Seeds: flaxseed, sunflower seeds, chia seeds
    Whole grains: oats, quinoa, brown rice, barley
    Legumes: black beans, kidney beans, lentils, chickpeas, lima beans
    Soy protein: tofu, tempeh, soy milk, soy cold cuts, soy veggie burgers
    Healthy fats: margarine and vegetable oils enriched with plant sterols


    PURGE THESE FOODS FROM YOUR DIET
    Processed foods: chips, pretzels, fried foods, convenience meals, french fries, processed meats
    Refined carbs: white pasta, white rice, white bread, tortillas
    Sweets: cookies, cake, candies, baked goods
    Sugar: table sugar, honey, maple syrup, brown sugar
    Beverages: soda, sweet tea, sports drinks, energy drinks

    It appears the foods that improve cholesterol levels are plant based and the ones that cause heart disease and want people to remove are also plant based. Yet the USDA want people to consume half their calories of carbohydrates to come from refined cereal grains the foods they say to PURGE and cause heart disease.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12936942/

    I agree with Harvard to the extent that a whole food diet and one that has very little refined and processed foods is the healthier route to take and that's really all we can take away from this particular study.


  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited October 2023
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    They then, Harvard in their wisdom couldn't bring themselves to add fish with omega 3's in the foods to be included, why, don't know. Instead they mention foods that would make good alternatives to the proteins that can't be uttered (animal based) and include items with wording like " soy cold cuts, soy veggie burgers" which are processed foods and to replace butter with healthy processed margarines. Exactly the types of foods (processed) they want removed. Harvard and Walter Willet are after all ground zero for veganism and plant based nutrition and epidemiology and with those 2 realizations, the world is your oyster, or should I say "tofu oyster" funny stuff really. Too me they seem to have a love hate relationship with plant based foods, they should probably make up their mind sooner than later.
  • saintor1
    saintor1 Posts: 376 Member
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    They then extrapolated a risk reduction of 0.14%

    For the record, it was 14% down, not 0.14% and also not an extrapolation; although it is self-declaratory, "People who scored highest on the PDS had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke."
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited October 2023
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    They then extrapolated a risk reduction of 0.14%

    For the record, it was 14% down, not 0.14% and also not an extrapolation; although it is self-declaratory, "People who scored highest on the PDS had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke."

    I got the hazard ratio (HR) wrong and it was actually 0.86% which then represents a 14% reduced risk when subtracted from 1.0, the base line. I used the 14% as the HR which was not correct, sorry for the confusion.

    Here's the actual study.

    https://ahajournals.org/doi/epdf/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.123.065551

    RESULTS: During up to 30 years of follow-up, 16917 incident CVD cases, including 10666 CHD cases and 6473 strokes, were documented. After multivariable adjustment for lifestyle factors and a modified Alternate Healthy Eating Index (excluding overlapping components), comparing the highest with the lowest quintile, participants with a higher PDS had a lower risk of total CVD (pooled hazard ratio, 0.86 [95% CI, 0.81–0.92]; Ptrend<0.001), CHD (pooled HR, 0.86 [95% CI, 0.80–0.93]; Ptrend=0.0001), and stroke (pooled HR, 0.86 [95% CI, 0.78–0.95]; Ptrend=0.0003). In addition, a 25-percentile higher PDS was associated with a lower risk of total CVD (pooled HR, 0.92 [95% CI, 0.89–0.95]), CHD (pooled HR, 0.92 [95% CI, 0.88–0.95]), and stroke (pooled HR, 0.92 [95% CI, 0.87–0.96]). Results remained consistent across sensitivity and most subgroup analyses, and there was no evidence of departure from linearity for CVD, CHD, or stroke. In a subset of participants, a higher PDS was associated with a more favorable blood lipid and inflammatory profile.
  • saintor1
    saintor1 Posts: 376 Member
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    Well I think that outlining the argument is very stupid.

    Yet you can't overcome my arguments,

    Enjoy your clogged arteries!

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
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    I don't even know what your argument is, I think it's bacon causes heart disease, but I could be wrong.
  • _John_
    _John_ Posts: 8,642 Member
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    I tried for about 6 months to raise my cholesterol in my 30's (had a total of 109 at the time), and couldn't do it, even adding over 20g of saturated fat daily from 70+% dark chocolate and coconut. My N=1 doesn't match the literature...

    Some of us just have low cholesterol. The highest mine has been in 15 years was 163, and that was when I was a sloppy, lazy fat ash on the SAD for a few years straight.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,014 Member
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    well the literature says SOME people respond to dietary changes - so you are still matching the literature if you do not.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,957 Member
    edited November 2023
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    I wouldn't worry about it John. Your trigs and C-reactive protein are much better indicators of calcium buildup, which is actual atherosclerosis anyway, maybe get a calcium scan just to make sure. Cheers. :)
  • SafariGalNYC
    SafariGalNYC Posts: 932 Member
    edited November 2023
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    @saintor1 how many grams of saturated fat are you eating per day?

    If you don’t have any weight to lose - cut out the saturated fat. What about ditching the bacon/butter completely and limited fatty meat for 3-6 months to see if the numbers drop?

    My n=1 experience- I did an elimination diet and cut all daily dairy, which was high sat fat (I still love straggisto!) and my total cholesterol went down 10 points. (I do eat 3mg of Omega 3 per day as well and fish 4ish times per week.)

    I don’t have high cholesterol but vascular disease runs in my family so I’m keen on anything cardio friendly and avoiding vascular issues in the future. 🤞🏻

    I’ve always been told Saturated fat & trans fat raises LDL and total cholesterol. Let us know how your experience goes!
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 7,551 Member
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Well I think that outlining the argument is very stupid.

    Yet you can't overcome my arguments,

    Enjoy your clogged arteries!
    Was that really necessary? Everyone here is on their own path to better, and sustainable, health.
    saintor1 wrote: »
    . Among my supplements, I have been taking vitamins D3, omega 6, mini-aspirin for years. This year, I also added K2, Metamucil, creatine, taurine, maca, magnesium citrate, ashwaganda, digestive enzymes, collagen, and for my skin retinol & grapeseeds oil.

    Your path is your own.

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Well I think that outlining the argument is very stupid.

    Yet you can't overcome my arguments,

    Enjoy your clogged arteries!

    Your arguments are outdated. Here's both an abstract and the full article which might interest you

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30198808/

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17512433.2018.1519391
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 27,951 Member
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    Interesting...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12680645/Move-Mediterranean-diet-New-portfolio-diet-silver-bullet-health-Americas-cardiologists-say-foods-invest-in.html
    It was invented by researchers from Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health and is made up of a range of cholesterol-lowering foods.

    People who scored highest on the PDS [Portfolio Diet Score] had a 14 percent lower risk of developing heart disease and stroke.

    And for each 25-percentile increase in the PDS, the risk of total cardiovascular disease, including coronary heart disease and stroke, declined by eight percent.

    My mother has been basically eating the Portfolio Diet for decades. Her total cholesterol is high, because her good cholesterol is very high.

    z7pxw76dq5gi.png

    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    saintor1 wrote: »
    Well I think that outlining the argument is very stupid.

    Yet you can't overcome my arguments,

    Enjoy your clogged arteries!

    Your arguments are outdated. Here's both an abstract and the full article which might interest you

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30198808/

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17512433.2018.1519391

    Yep.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,721 Member
    edited November 2023
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    saintor1 wrote: »
    I'd say that breakfast isn't the problem here... it's the eating out 4-5× a week. What are you ordering at restaurants?

    It is not eating out 4-5x a week, I meant a total of 4-5x meals with meat as the main course. We typically land at steakhouses or chicken places... my options are limited, but I can also improve this.

    For the others, I warned you; *not interested*. :) I want to get under 150, a zone that there is really near 0 cardiac risk. My call. 20-30% of the cardiac attacks happen in people having a total cholesterol between 150-200, IIRC what I read a few years ago.

    I side with these guys.
    https://meschinohealth.com/article/helping-patients-achieve-a-cholesterol-level-below-150-mgdl/
    Disclaimer, I will not deal with keto arguing, I am jot posting to battle. This has been MY EXPERIENCE, MY FIANCE AND FRIENDS. Iwent WFPB. MY CHOLESTEROL went down tremendously. It started over 200 then after several years it stayed in 160 range. When I had a CT scan it had shown 19 percent calcification. After much and ongoing research, doctor visits and talks I opted for low fat WFPB diet. My LDL went to 50 and over all in 130s. My fiance had had similar
    When I slowly added some more fat and got comfortable it went up. Now I am back to what works. My digestion, sleep, RHR and energy are so much better as well. I take red yeast rice and other supplements but diet is most effective for me.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 27,951 Member
    edited November 2023
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    VegjoyP wrote: »
    saintor1 wrote: »
    I'd say that breakfast isn't the problem here... it's the eating out 4-5× a week. What are you ordering at restaurants?

    It is not eating out 4-5x a week, I meant a total of 4-5x meals with meat as the main course. We typically land at steakhouses or chicken places... my options are limited, but I can also improve this.

    For the others, I warned you; *not interested*. :) I want to get under 150, a zone that there is really near 0 cardiac risk. My call. 20-30% of the cardiac attacks happen in people having a total cholesterol between 150-200, IIRC what I read a few years ago.

    I side with these guys.
    https://meschinohealth.com/article/helping-patients-achieve-a-cholesterol-level-below-150-mgdl/
    Disclaimer, I will not deal with keto arguing, I am jot posting to battle. This has been MY EXPERIENCE, MY FIANCE AND FRIENDS. Iwent WFPB. MY CHOLESTEROL went down tremendously. It started over 200 then after several years it stayed in 160 range. When I had a CT scan it had shown 19 percent calcification. After much and ongoing research, doctor visits and talks I opted for low fat WFPB diet. My LDL went to 50 and over all in 130s. My fiance had had similar
    When I slowly added some more fat and got comfortable it went up. Now I am back to what works. My digestion, sleep, RHR and energy are so much better as well. I take red yeast rice and other supplements but diet is most effective for me.

    I was with you for dietary changes being effective until you said you take red yeast rice.

    My partner eats SAD two meals a day, takes a statin, and his LDL went down. You eat WFPB, take something containing a chemical the same as that in prescription statins and your LDL went down.

    https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/supplement/red-yeast-rice

    Red yeast rice contains chemicals that are similar to prescription statin medications. One of these, called monacolin K, has the same makeup as the drug lovastatin (Mevacor).