Intermittent Fasting

Dr Fung is highly controversial, some might even go as far as calling him a quack. The title of Dr. Is convenient to promote sales, but he's a nephrologist, not really relevant for the subjects he talks about.

I'm no scientist, so no solid arguments to debunk or support his beliefs. But not eating after 6 is not at all common medical recommandation where I live. Not unless eating late meals or harder for you to sleep.

Intermittent fasting helps some people lose weight because it reduces the window of eating and therefore how many calories are consumed. It can make it easier to stick to a calorie goal. (Other people find it promotes binges for them when their fasting window ends)
And only eating when hungry, well, we don't all have hunger cuts in line with the calorie needs of our bodies. Some people get fat that way too.

I lost weight eating after 6PM every single day (dinner at 7 or 8 PM and a snack around 10PM). I gained weight that way too, but eating more/ moving less.
I lost weight doing intermittent fasting and I lost weight just as well eating 3 meals and 1 of 2 snacks per day. I find eating breakfast makes me hungrier throughout the day. But when I did intermittent fasting, I had trouble reaching my protein goal, so I went back to eating breakfast, but fairly late (9AM).

Personally, I am not a fan of Dr Fung, insulin is not evil and unless there are medical blood sugar issues I see no reason to mess with that bodily process. Our bodies shift from storing to using energy and vice versa constantly.

If intermittent fasting is a good fit for you, go for it. But if it isn't, 3 meals a day is fine too. The important thing is to find something you can stick with long-term.

lol, Dr. Fung………

One of many YouTube, I won’t call em quacks however let’s say they run on a lot of false information and a lot of people get behind it because it sounds so plausible. People are always looking to find holes in CICO so they have an excuse to not be as calorie conscious.

Keep your weekly calorie amount in check and you’ll be fine. Meal timing does not directly affect fat loss or gain.

jennywren93 wrote: »

Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now

You joined this site in 2010. How long have you been fasting/carnivore and how much weight have you lost? How are your other health markers? Do you plan to eat caveman/carnivore forever? If not, why not?

Such a lot of misunderstanding in your post.

jennywren93 wrote: »

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

Fung and IF have been discussed ad nauseum here.

I would suggest you go to Google and read what reputable sources say about Fung, Intermittent fasting, and weight loss...stay off YouTube, it's a rabbit hole of misdirection and misinformation that anyone can post at any time with zero proof or knowledge.

If people post enough garbage, it starts becoming a career of lies. Hard to backpedal into the truth when you're selling books and YouTube hits to desperate and easily fooled people looking for loopholes and easy weight-loss hacks. i.e. $$$

correct!

all these people like Fung, etc, take advantage of people looking for fatloss hacks as nobody wants to do what is necessary to actually lose fat.

Fatloss is simple but not easy for most.

Fasting is not a hack, and is not easy. People who want to lose the fat, fast for that exact reason.

I wanted to lose the fat, but it turned out to be completely unnecessary for me to fast in order to lose fat. I lost from obese to a healthy weight and have stayed at a healthy weight for 7+ years since (after around 30 years of overweight/obesity), and I did that eating from shortly after I get up in the morning until shortly before bed at night (. . . while menopausal, age 59-60, and severely hypothyroid, in case anyone thinks those are factors that require fasting or low carb in order to lose weight).

There's nothing wrong with fasting for weight loss if that helps a person manage calorie intake, and there's nothing wrong with fasting for people who find it pleasant or convenient, or who believe that fasting has substantial health benefits. I'm not dissing fasting (or any other eating style compatible with general good health). If OP wants to try it, that's reasonable.

But fasting is not universally essential for weight loss, and it's inaccurate to imply that it is. Ditto for low carb: That helps some people, and carb management is necessary for certain health conditions, but it's not universally required for weight loss or health.

I don't really care how many carbs I eat: As you say, they're not technically an essential nutrient. But looking retrospectively, my carb intake has been around the 50% MFP default (say +/- 5%) all through weight loss and maintenance. (I ate nearly zero added sugar during loss, in maintenance generally less than the 10% of calories recommended as a maximum by WHO and others. That's not from any kind of "limit added sugar" mindset, more just my personal eating preferences. My total sugar intake routinely exceeds the MFP default goal, but it's predominantly from fruit, veggies, and no-sugar-added dairy.)

By the way, Fat isn't remotely sating to me. Protein and volume (lotsa veggies/fruits) are. Satiation tends to be individual. (Some people say they require carbs in order to feel full, even some mention bread or pasta or rice. I have no reason to doubt them.)

My blood sugar levels, cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure are all fine now, too - though all but blood sugar were high before weight loss. (I recognize that not having been diabetic or IR may be part of the reason I don't seem to need to limit carbs.)

Fung has had some success as a clinician, and quite a few people find the strategies he advocates to be beneficial for them in various ways. That's great, in my view. But his theoretical underpinnings seem to have some serious flaws, among them the implication that there's universally no way to control appetite or lose weight without fasting or eating low carb. That's simply not accurate. Before anyone takes Fung's theories at face value, I'd recommend that they look at what some of his well-credentialed critics say. (That's always a good strategy IMO, in any area at all, to look at critiques of appealing-sounding theories.)

Many people here (and elsewhere) succeed at weight loss and health improvement without either fasting or low carb - that makes the case. That would be reasonably convincing even if there were not substantial amounts of research underpinning the notion that calories are the foundation for weight management. In a practical sense, obviously there's more to weight loss tactics than just calories, of course: Appetite, emotional issues, energy level, sleep, movement, social context, . . . I could go on and on.

I'm sincerely delighted that you've found an eating/activity routine that you're finding helps you lose weight in a health-promoting way. It's fine to tell other people about personal success strategies. But it's not universally the only way.

You don't have to agree with me, that's ok. I know how my body has healed since 2016, and how free my life is because I'm eating a proper human diet. I want to share and encourage people who are interested in eating this way because of the profound impact it has had on MY life.

Jennywren, nobody is disagreeing that fasting or carnivore eating worked for YOU.

the pushback is against your "this is universal" type claims, things like this: Fat and protein keep you satiated so you CAN fast longer (because your body is getting the nutrients you need instead of being full but nutritionally starving).

Had you worded it Fats keep ME satiated...... no problem.

But that isnt universally the case.

Myself, I dont like big meals and have found eating in intervals throughout the day - ie breakfast, snack, lunch, dinner , snack - or something like that - suits me much better
I am not a vegetarian but I eat less meat than many people.

I have no issues with people eating any sensible variation of styles/foods - I do have an issue when they make claims that this is better for everyone.
Which is how your post came across.

jennywren93 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

You don't have to agree with me, that's ok. I know how my body has healed since 2016, and how free my life is because I'm eating a proper human diet. I want to share and encourage people who are interested in eating this way because of the profound impact it has had on MY life.

Jennywren, nobody is disagreeing that fasting or carnivore eating worked for YOU.

the pushback is against your "this is universal" type claims, things like this: Fat and protein keep you satiated so you CAN fast longer (because your body is getting the nutrients you need instead of being full but nutritionally starving).

Had you worded it Fats keep ME satiated...... no problem.

But that isnt universally the case.

Myself, I dont like big meals and have found eating in intervals throughout the day - ie breakfast, snack, lunch, dinner , snack - or something like that - suits me much better
I am not a vegetarian but I eat less meat than many people.

I have no issues with people eating any sensible variation of styles/foods - I do have an issue when they make claims that this is better for everyone.
Which is how your post came across.

I've done a lot of research, and I absolutely look to the science for what I say. Here's a great Pubmed article with some interesting information for you(It really is a fascinating read if you are interested!) :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7539343/

some highlights:
Prevalence of obesity around the world have increased rapidly in recent years. This phenomenon poses serious health risks because obesity can progressively cause a wide range of diseases such metabolic syndrome, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular diseases.1 To resolve obesity, a negative energy balance, in which energy expenditure is greater than energy intake, must be encouraged. This can be achieved via an energy-restricted diet.2 However, an energy-restricted diet carries the risk of post-loss weight regain because it increases hunger and decreases fullness. Furthermore, weight loss through an energy-restricted diet reduces fat mass and fat-free mass (FFM), which hinders a continuous negative energy balance. To overcome this, lowering energy intake while maintaining fullness and FFM is crucial, and a high-protein, energy-restricted diet is one important strategy.3,4 In this review article, we examine the clinical evidence for the weight-loss effects and side effects of high-protein diet (HPD) and introduce various mechanisms through which HPD increases satiety and induces weight loss while preserving FFM.

After 6 months, participants in the high-protein group significantly lost BW (–3.7 kg; 95% CI, –6.2 to –1.3 kg) and fat mass (–3.3 kg; 95% CI, –5.5 to –1.1 kg) compared with those in the high-carbohydrate diet group.

In conclusion, many clinical trials have shown that consuming more protein than the recommended dietary allowance induces weight loss and improves body composition regardless of total energy intake. HPD was also observed to have long-term weight-loss effects and to prevent weight regain following initial weight loss.

The benefits of HPD are well known, but there have been concerns that it may be harmful to the bones and kidneys. It has long been hypothesized that HPD increases the resorption of bones, which act as buffers, by increasing the acid load in the body,13 and some researchers argued that HPD increases risk for bone fracture and osteoporosis by accelerating bone resorption and urinary calcium excretion.14 However, a meta-analysis of 74 RCTs observed that subjects in the HPD group (16%–45% of total daily energy intake as protein) were not significantly different from low-protein-diet subjects (5%–23% of total daily energy intake as protein) with regard to bone mineral density of the lumbar spine and hips.6 Furthermore, low protein intake is generally considered a nutritional deficiency.

Dietary protein not only decreases BW by increasing satiety and energy expenditure, but also improves body composition by increasing FFM. Increased satiety from protein intake is associated with elevation of blood amino acid (AA) concentration, hunger-inhibiting hormones, diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT), and ketone body levels.

The mechanism underlying HPD-induced weight loss involves an increase in satiety and energy expenditure. Increased satiety is believed to be a result of elevated levels of anorexigenic hormones, decreased levels of orexigenic hormones, increased DIT, elevated plasma AA levels, increased hepatic gluconeogenesis, and increased ketogenesis from the higher protein intake.

You do realize, I hope, that carnivore isn't the only eating style that involves higher protein (in the range described in that link)? I think you'll find that many people here see benefits in eating more protein than the US recommended minimums. I get high protein - using their definitions - as a vegetarian.

Personally, I prefer to think of protein intake in grams rather than percent of calories (in part because I have higher than average calorie needs due to being quite active and having higher than average lean mass for my demographic).

The article you linked has studies with varying definitions of "high protein", but the higher one of those in grams defines it as 1.07-1.6g/kg (bodyweight)/day. That would be 0.49-0.73 g/lb/day. A common recommendation to see in the Community here is 0.6-0.8g/lb/day, irrespective of dietary style (as long as there are no medical contraindications to high protein, of course). That's what I'd normally recommend.

Occasionally, you'll see recommendations here up to 1.1-1.2g/lb/day. (Note: Most of us would recommend basing protein gram goals on a healthy goal weight rather than an overweight/obese starting weight: Protein maintains our lean mass, we don't need lots extra because of excess fat mass.)

At a weight in the lower 130s (133.6 pounds this morning), my personal protein minimum is 100g, and I usually get closer to 120g and sometimes more, so we're talking 0.76-0.92g/lb/day in my case. Again, that's as a vegetarian.

Repeating myself from my PP: Keto/carnivore is a fine eating style, for those whom it suits. It's not the only option for weight loss, it's not the only option for improving health markers, and it's not the only way to consume higher protein. The point isn't to diss your choices, the point is that different eating styles suit different people, and many different styles can lead to weight loss and improved health.

Though I'm a happy vegetarian (for almost 50 years now), I don't try to tell others that it's the One True Way. In fact, I usually try to talk people out of it if they're under the delusion that vegetarianism inherently leads to weight loss or improved health.

Appropriate calories lead to weight loss. Good nutrition provides the best odds of continuing good health. Those can be accomplished via varied eating styles.

ETA P.S. Carnivore also isn't the only eating style that involves eating mostly simple, unrefined, "whole" foods. I think most people here who've been successful with losing weight and improving health markers would also advocate eating a fair fraction of nutrient-dense foods, though many use more of an 80/20 strategy (80% nutrient-dense simple foods, 20% other - which could include refined foods, fast food, or other "treat" foods). Personally, I eat predominantly simple, nutrient-dense foods, plus some traditional processed foods humans have consumed for centuries to millennia (such as plain yogurt, tofu, tempeh). However I don't think that eating the occasional cookie or ice cream wipes out the benefits from those more nutrient-dense things.

jennywren regardless of what your article says - the reality is that satiety is subjective as is preference for eating styles.

The style of eating - as in whether OMAD, some form of intermittent fasting, 20 mini meals a day or whatever in between, as well as the foods one eats to reach reasonable nutrition and appropriate calorie intake is personal preference.

What works for you isnt what works for everyone - I know I do better with food spread out over the day and I know I do fine from a blood test result and weight point of view eating a relatively small amount of meat

Basically what I said before - and you article doesn't change that.

I eat high carb.
I eat reasonably high protein.
I don’t like much fat. Fat doesn’t like me.
I have reflux and food allergies.
I have blood sugar issues which mean fasting will give me hypos.

BUT - I wouldn’t for one minute suggest my way is the only way. It works for me, I’m cool with it, and I’ve both lost weight and gained muscle eating this way. All in response to CICO.

Everyone is different and fasting can help people to moderate their food intake / fit around their life / give them control over the meals. Other people like or need to snack and like to eat small amounts throughout the day. You do you - but there is no ONE way.

That, however, won’t sell books and make me a millionaire.

kshama2001 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

jennywren regardless of what your article says - the reality is that satiety is subjective as is preference for eating styles.

The style of eating - as in whether OMAD, some form of intermittent fasting, 20 mini meals a day or whatever in between, as well as the foods one eats to reach reasonable nutrition and appropriate calorie intake is personal preference.

What works for you isnt what works for everyone - I know I do better with food spread out over the day and I know I do fine from a blood test result and weight point of view eating a relatively small amount of meat

Basically what I said before - and you article doesn't change that.

Yes, any way of eating will work if one is able to stick to it. The key is to find a WOE that creates a calorie deficit while being satiating. The MFP macros and 12:12 works for me, but there are lots of other options:

The billion dollar weight loss industry hates this chart! lol

jennywren93 wrote: »

Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now

Cavemen also didn't have 8 hour jobs, exercised for fitness, or do any other real chores keeping a cave. Also, cavemen didn't have food at their disposal all the time like we do now. I will bet dollars to donuts that if they did, they would be in the same dilema as many overweight people.
Fung does a lot of cherry picked science to back up his way of having people diet. There IS no magic to intermentent fasting. You can eat 6 meals a day and if they added up to the total calories you need to lose weight...........................you'll lose weight.
The issue with the majority of people who are overweight is that they don't pay attention to how many calories they eat in a day. They just think 3 meals a day is standard regardless of what it consists off whether fast food, large amounts of carbs and fats, etc.

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