How to reach from 20% to 12% BF while I don’t have a lot of muscle mass
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This is funny... err...
don't ADD 400 -- add 200
at least to start
There, I said it too!
"WEIGHT GAIN" is **NOT** your goal!
Your goal is to provide the energy and nutrients needed for optimal muscle growth.
The potentially resultant weight gain weight is a side effect you are managing.
Not the goal itself.
Small modification to @tomcustombuilder mainly because of potential issues many people have with navel level measurements.
Go to the side of your body and follow up straight up from your pelvis to the very tip top of the bone structure there -- it is called the iliac crest. Lift your "paw" and feel along your rib-cage and locate your lowest rib. Now use your finger to measure how much room there is between the two and put a little dot with a marker between the two. repeat on the other side. Get measuring tape and using mirror to make sure the tape is parallel to the ground especially behind your back--they are pesky that way.... breathe normally, not deeply, not shallowly... and at a normal exhale... take a measurement. And then a second... and hopefully they are almost the same
Beyond that... you do remember the weight trend app that was mentioned?
I'll be honest it does not sound like you are 100% accurate with your caloric counts... so... how about simplifying?
Keep all the rest the same... but add a "full of energy" pre-workout drink or snack timed appropriately before your workout to make you more energized and ready to go for it?
And if you need to add more calories later, and if increasing the PRE would be counterproductive, you could combine it with an appropriate POST workout snack...
**Still think you're looking awesome as is, just FYI.
I meant to add 400 above where I consume now 1800cal, which is actually should be close to my maintenance 2200...so I was thinking to start the first 2 weeks at 2200 and maybe add another 100-200cals if needed
I actually eat the same food almost everyday and I don't get board, so it is not super difficult for me to track my food, so I was thinking to add a couple of extra spoons of rice and some nuts to my food and then see how things going from there.
I really like your idea of how to to measure the navel area, is there a video our there explaining this maybe?
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I wouldn’t increase more than 200 a day. Try that with a new workout routine for about 30 days and see how you feel/look and adjust incrementally from there. Regarding diet and best training programs I’d confer with:
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I meant to add 400 cal above where I am now which should be around my maininance level and then take it from there.
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That's good to hear.
Since you're so worried about body fat, I'd suggest +200 above maintenance. That's sufficient for good muscle growth without adding much fat. If you think your maintenance is 2200 say, and you should have a good idea of this based on recent weight change compared to your current calorie intake, then go to 2400.
Don't adjust this in the future by weight change. Adjust by fat change. Your waist is a simple method. If your belt size is going up or pants feeling tighter, lower the calorie surplus back to maintenance for a while, or do a proper multi-week cutting phase. If your belt size is the same or you're having to go in a notch, who cares whether you gained 1kg or 2kg or whatever? Things are clearly going in the right direction!
If you have training questions, feel free to ask. I highly recommend these two channels. RP for the science talk about hypertrophy, splits, volume, etc., and Jonni Shreve for the form guides.
https://www.youtube.com/@RenaissancePeriodization
https://www.youtube.com/@JonniShreve
P.S. No, your source of increased calories doesn't really matter, especially if it doesn't trigger bad eating habits.[/quote]
Thank you guys, I hope you don't mind me asking questions that seem silly, but I really appreciate your kindness in responding to me patiently
I added those two youtube channels to my favorite, btw the program you suggested earlier, is there a youtube video about this full program or something similar that I can follow instead of the pro -split I was using?
and when you said if I feel I gain much fat I can go for multi-week cutting, is that like a mini cut where I cut aggressively for one month or so?
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Beyond that... you do remember the weight trend app that was mentioned?
**Still think you're looking awesome as is, just FYI.
Forgot to mentioned I have a digital weight scale that comes with an app that tracks my weight and it has that cute chart, is that something similar to what you mean?
and thanks man again!!0 -
You're welcome. Btw, you have a habit of messing up the quotes. First set of square brackets should have the "quote" or "quote="id handle". The second set of square brackets has "/quote" to end it.Thank you guys, I hope you don't mind me asking questions that seem silly, but I really appreciate your kindness in responding to me patiently
I added those two youtube channels to my favorite, btw the program you suggested earlier, is there a youtube video about this full program or something similar that I can follow instead of the pro -split I was using?
and when you said if I feel I gain much fat I can go for multi-week cutting, is that like a mini cut where I cut aggressively for one month or so?
I'm sure there are vids on splits at the RP channel if you search there.
e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/@RenaissancePeriodization/search?query=split
A lot of it comes down to how many days you're training. For instance, 6 days PPL would be good. 4 days maybe ULUL. Or as I mentioned, adding arms to the leg days. Three days or two days split, full body each time. Note you might still only do deadlifts once per week, and you might not do squats 48 hours after the last time, so you might sub in a less fatiguing leg exercise that day. That all depends on your level of systemic fatigue and recovery.
The fewer the workouts the longer they might be, since you should aim for about 15 working sets per group per week. Two chest workouts, 7-8 sets each, two exercises. Three chest workouts, fewer sets each time, 5 sets, since 5x3=15. That's maybe just one chest exercise each workout.
Don't be afraid of a small calorie surplus. It's the ideal muscle growth environment. You aren't doing yourself any favors by sticking at maintenance for this program while you're as lean as you are now.
And yes, if you felt you were getting too fat, then a multi-week cut period with say 500 calories daily deficit would get you back on track. It should be at least a few months before that's a possible concern.1 -
And for the love of all that is good, please don't focus on a percent or 2 difference in BF% or if you should eat something 30 minutes or 45 minutes after working out, if you need a min-cut, etc. This is just crap that is taking your thoughts away from what you need to do.
LIFT 2-3 TIMES A WEEK, MAINLY COMPOUND EXERCISES FOR ALL MAJOR MUSCLE GROUPS. This is what is going to get you progress. From what you have posted your diet is not the issue (maybe add 100-200 calories a day). Also from you what you have posted (verbally and pictures) I don't believe you have been lifting on a consistent basis. Ain't nothing happening until that starts.
Have you heard of recomposition (recomp)? That is what you need to be thinking. Cut and bulk cycles are appropriate for very few people. A 40 year old with little training history is not part of that group.
If not familiar with it this article discusses recomposition:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/body-recomposition
Best of luck.3 -
The mistake people make with bulk/cut cycles is they go way too hard on the "bulk" side, because hey it's fun to have huge milk shakes and McD's burgers and donuts every day. But unless you're a new lifter, most of that ends up as fat. A small surplus of 200 with consistent lifting and OP's healthy diet plus taking into account their current lean state, will not suddenly make them fat. As I originally told them, do a small surplus until you feel it's too much fat, then back off to maintenance. Yes, a cut could be an option instead, but unless they put on a ton of fat, just going to maintenance for a bit will probably take care of it.1
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I admit that I am closer to @Theoldguy1 on my general thoughts on cut/bulk cycles vs recomp for most people.
And would be even more negative in the context of someone ever having been appreciably overweight or obese.
But, it seems everyone else is on the slow bulk train for faster muscle growth.
Ultimately, unless your nutrition actively discourages muscle growth, the impetus will come from the work you are requiring your muscles to perform.
Moving on:
In terms of "I have a digital weight scale that comes with an app that tracks my weight and it has that cute chart, is that something similar to what you mean" , this is a case where similar may not be the same! It depends on what your app does.
I was unpleasantly shocked to discover that my scale's app seems to think that my last weight in for each month correctly can be used to represent my "monthly weight" in terms of month to month graphing and comparison.... ummmm: NO. At the very least a simple average but not just a single random measurement!
Weight trend apps (Libra, happy scale, trendweight/weightgrapher) construct a moving average looking back at x number of days (for example 10). You could do the same in a spreadsheet by either simply averaging over 10 days or by assigning a higher value to more recent weight ins: f.e. today x 10, yesterday x 9, day before x 8, .... 10 days ago x 1 and then have the average computed by dividing the total sum by 55 in this example.
Even though the whole moving average graph is a tiny bit slower to respond to persistent change, overall it still captures both direction and change, and once established the actual rate of change while de-emphasizing non long term weight level related short term fluctuations.1 -
To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.2
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That's a very slow process, especially someone starting from lean, who isn't a new lifter. Very slow.Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.
Again, let's not equate a small surplus of a granola bar with Sam Sulek style chocolate milkshakes and takeout food.0 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »
That's a very slow process, especially someone starting from lean, who isn't a new lifter. Very slow.Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.
Again, let's not equate a small surplus of a granola bar with Sam Sulek style chocolate milkshakes and takeout food.
And that's fine. He's 40, from all his comments he has not been consistent lifting. I would consider him a new lifter. Plus his bodyfat is above the generally accepted range for bulking. If he bulks with a lack of consistency on the lifting he will just add fat.
That is why I said workout and recomp for 6 months and then reassess,1 -
I wouldn’t increase more than 200 a day. Try that with a new workout routine for about 30 days and see how you feel/look and adjust incrementally from there. Regarding diet and best training programs I’d confer with:
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I meant to add 400 cal above where I am now which should be around my maininance level and then take it from there.
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Just to address building muscle: you’re going to need to eat at a minor calorie surplus. For lots of reasons. If you’re not eating at maintenance then it’s v difficult to build the muscle you want. I’ve been as low as 15% body fat (as a middle aged woman) but I had absolutely no visible abs, as I just hadn’t built them up enough. I’m much higher fat now, probably around 23%, but my abs are visible.
You need to lift HEAVY (for you). You can’t do that if you don’t fuel. We’re all different but for reference I’m 5’3, weight c57kg and I maintain on 2,200. I’m in mostly recomp, as in I want to build more muscle and get stronger but stay in the weight range for my sport. That isn’t going to happen if I don’t eat enough to fuel my lifting.
I don’t train for aesthetics but for sport, and that means I’m a bit fluffier than I would like to be. But it also means if I decided to cut, I would have the muscles to show.
In a nutshell you need to eat at maintenance or ideally 200 cals above (as lots of others have said) and get your mind ready that you may out a bit of fat on when you’re building muscle. But you can cut it again, and just keep an eye on your waist line.
To reiterate, you need to fuel your lifting to build big juicy muscles - you won’t do that if you’re under eating by 400 cals per day.2 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »I'm sure there are vids on splits at the RP channel if you search there.
e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/@RenaissancePeriodization/search?query=split
A lot of it comes down to how many days you're training. For instance, 6 days PPL would be good. 4 days maybe ULUL. Or as I mentioned, adding arms to the leg days. Three days or two days split, full body each time. Note you might still only do deadlifts once per week, and you might not do squats 48 hours after the last time, so you might sub in a less fatiguing leg exercise that day. That all depends on your level of systemic fatigue and recovery.
The fewer the workouts the longer they might be, since you should aim for about 15 working sets per group per week. Two chest workouts, 7-8 sets each, two exercises. Three chest workouts, fewer sets each time, 5 sets, since 5x3=15. That's maybe just one chest exercise each workout.
Don't be afraid of a small calorie surplus. It's the ideal muscle growth environment. You aren't doing yourself any favors by sticking at maintenance for this program while you're as lean as you are now.
And yes, if you felt you were getting too fat, then a multi-week cut period with say 500 calories daily deficit would get you back on track. It should be at least a few months before that's a possible concern.
Yes, I noticed I messing up the quotes, I hope I managed this time lol
Thanks for your suggestion I watched some videos on RP channel for split exercise and I also came across a video for guy that I used to follow, he designed this PPL workout, I would love your feedback about it, I am planning to do 6 days a week, would that can be a good start for me? I understand that I might need to tweak things a little bit depends on the machine I have and my fitness level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVek72z3F1U
Please don't get mad, I just to confirm that info cause I am bit confused now with the calories, I am currently consuming around 1700cals that showing me result of average -0.5kg per week. shall I add now let's say around 400 on that for a week or two and then increase another 100-200 cals if necessary?
I am sorry if I am sounds like repeating myself here, but I am trying hard to understand you guys since also English is not my first language...thank you!!1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »And for the love of all that is good, please don't focus on a percent or 2 difference in BF% or if you should eat something 30 minutes or 45 minutes after working out, if you need a min-cut, etc. This is just crap that is taking your thoughts away from what you need to do.
LIFT 2-3 TIMES A WEEK, MAINLY COMPOUND EXERCISES FOR ALL MAJOR MUSCLE GROUPS. This is what is going to get you progress. From what you have posted your diet is not the issue (maybe add 100-200 calories a day). Also from you what you have posted (verbally and pictures) I don't believe you have been lifting on a consistent basis. Ain't nothing happening until that starts.
Have you heard of recomposition (recomp)? That is what you need to be thinking. Cut and bulk cycles are appropriate for very few people. A 40 year old with little training history is not part of that group.
If not familiar with it this article discusses recomposition:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/body-recomposition
Best of luck.
Thanks but I unfortunately I don't think I fit for the beginner category even though I look like a pretty beginner. Yes I have been training on and off for 10 years and most of the time I spent it eating the wrong food and exercising wrong doing crazy amount of HIIT for example. but I can say that at least the last 3 years I have been committed to the gym but maybe I spent the majority of time switching between bulk and cut, when I bulk I gain more fats than I expected then I spent more time cutting that out and so on, so I was doing it wrong, but I was pushing hard in the gym, I guess!!
I am consuming now around 1700 cals so I am thinking to stay at my maintenance let's say 2100-2200cal for a couple of weeks then increase another 100-200 cals, what do you think?1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »And for the love of all that is good, please don't focus on a percent or 2 difference in BF% or if you should eat something 30 minutes or 45 minutes after working out, if you need a min-cut, etc. This is just crap that is taking your thoughts away from what you need to do.
LIFT 2-3 TIMES A WEEK, MAINLY COMPOUND EXERCISES FOR ALL MAJOR MUSCLE GROUPS. This is what is going to get you progress. From what you have posted your diet is not the issue (maybe add 100-200 calories a day). Also from you what you have posted (verbally and pictures) I don't believe you have been lifting on a consistent basis. Ain't nothing happening until that starts.
Have you heard of recomposition (recomp)? That is what you need to be thinking. Cut and bulk cycles are appropriate for very few people. A 40 year old with little training history is not part of that group.
If not familiar with it this article discusses recomposition:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/body-recomposition
Best of luck.
Thanks but I unfortunately I don't think I fit for the beginner category even though I look like a pretty beginner. Yes I have been training on and off for 10 years and most of the time I spent it eating the wrong food and exercising wrong doing crazy amount of HIIT for example. but I can say that at least the last 3 years I have been committed to the gym but maybe I spent the majority of time switching between bulk and cut, when I bulk I gain more fats than I expected then I spent more time cutting that out and so on, so I was doing it wrong, but I was pushing hard in the gym, I guess!!
I am consuming now around 1700 cals so I am thinking to stay at my maintenance let's say 2100-2200cal for a couple of weeks then increase another 100-200 cals, what do you think?
My thoughts are in my post you quoted. I think you need a slight calorie increase from your maintenance, consistent lifting, compound movements hitting every muscle group 2-3 times a week. Do this for 6 months and reassess. You need to build a good foundation.
Good luck.1 -
On why recomp (maintenance or small deficit) is a bad idea here. We already know that recomp is a slow process, and very slow for someone who is lean (like OP) and not a new lifter (which OP isn't). It looks like @Theoldguy1 has come around on this topic since yesterday, but I hope they won't mind me using their original argument here anyway. This is to show with numbers why it's not advisable.Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.
OP is 150 pounds. If we assume 16% bf, that's 24 pounds of fat. If they were to gain 13 pounds of muscle while losing 13 pounds of fat, they'd have 11 pounds of fat left, and be at 7% body fat. That's pro bodybuilder on stage, and obviously not natural, level. It's a completely unrealistic goal to reach for a natural, let alone maintain. It also caps the max amount of possible muscle he could gain to a small amount, because he doesn't have much fat. And it would be a very slow process.Theoldguy1 wrote: »My thoughts are in my post you quoted. I think you need a slight calorie increase from your maintenance, consistent lifting, compound movements
OTOH, if OP does a small calorie surplus above maintenance like most of us advise, and it looks like you now agree Theoldguy, let's say he gains 10 pounds of weight and 8 pounds of that is muscle. His bodyfat % will be... drum roll... 16%, the same as it looks now. This is what Coach Greg Doucette talks about all the time as maingaining, which he advises from 15% bf, i.e. a slow weight gain while maintaining the same bf %. It's the ideal scenario for muscle gain, and if OP were to gain 8 pounds of muscle with the same bf %, his body composition will be much improved. And if it feels like too much fat is being gained, just go back to maintenance for a bit while continuing the lifting. The key is a small surplus, like one extra granola bar or protein bar, not chocolate milk shakes and scoops of peanut butter every day style.3 -
Ironically, you messed up the quotes more than normal that timeThanks for your suggestion I watched some videos on RP channel for split exercise and I also came across a video for guy that I used to follow, he designed this PPL workout, I would love your feedback about it, I am planning to do 6 days a week, would that can be a good start for me? I understand that I might need to tweak things a little bit depends on the machine I have and my fitness level:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVek72z3F1U
Please don't get mad, I just to confirm that info cause I am bit confused now with the calories, I am currently consuming around 1700cals that showing me result of average -0.5kg per week. shall I add now let's say around 400 on that for a week or two and then increase another 100-200 cals if necessary?
I am sorry if I am sounds like repeating myself here, but I am trying hard to understand you guys since also English is not my first language...thank you!!
Nippard has a good channel. Not a lot of content, but worth following. I probably saw that vid at the time, so I skipped to the top comment listing all the exercises and sets. It's a good program, but for a 40 year old that looks quite hardcore. Six days in a row lifting for a 40 year old, seems like quite a lot. It also looks more tailored for bodybuilding, which isn't a bad thing, but e.g. it has multiple different isolation exercises for arms and rear delts, while at this stage of your training you could just focus on the compounds and pick a single curl option and you'd be fine.
And btw, I'd suggest switching out the dips for cable fly's. While dips are a fantastic exercise, at your age it's not worth the risk of shoulder impingement.
So yeah my suggestion if you give it a go is skip many of the arm and shoulder isolation exercises for now, but do all the compounds in his list. Try to be out of the gym in 45 mins each time. You can always add those isolation exercise in later if you feel up to it, and that would be progressive overload, which is good.
You're doing great with the language. I assure you it was not at all obvious that it's not your first language.1 -
Doing a quick look around on your behalf, since that Nippard PPLPPL looks quite bodybuilder hardcore for a 40 year old relative newbie, this looks like it might be good for you. It's a strength focused split with an upper body bias, and it's simple to track and progress. At 3x per week and compound focused it's much easier to adhere to than 6 days, which also frees you up to do whatever cardio you want on the other days (not HIIT).
https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/plus/
About progressing:
https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/
I'd suggest a couple of minor changes. Start the week with Workout B then C then A. So e.g. if you did M/W/F that would mean deadlifts on Monday and squats on Friday. I'd also suggest you swap the dips for bench press, and I don't know what a pallof press is.
What do you think? Maybe try this for three or four months then reassess?0 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »On why recomp (maintenance or small deficit) is a bad idea here. We already know that recomp is a slow process, and very slow for someone who is lean (like OP) and not a new lifter (which OP isn't). It looks like @Theoldguy1 has come around on this topic since yesterday, but I hope they won't mind me using their original argument here anyway. This is to show with numbers why it's not advisable.Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.
OP is 150 pounds. If we assume 16% bf, that's 24 pounds of fat. If they were to gain 13 pounds of muscle while losing 13 pounds of fat, they'd have 11 pounds of fat left, and be at 7% body fat. That's pro bodybuilder on stage, and obviously not natural, level. It's a completely unrealistic goal to reach for a natural, let alone maintain. It also caps the max amount of possible muscle he could gain to a small amount, because he doesn't have much fat. And it would be a very slow process.Theoldguy1 wrote: »My thoughts are in my post you quoted. I think you need a slight calorie increase from your maintenance, consistent lifting, compound movements
OTOH, if OP does a small calorie surplus above maintenance like most of us advise, and it looks like you now agree Theoldguy, let's say he gains 10 pounds of weight and 8 pounds of that is muscle. His bodyfat % will be... drum roll... 16%, the same as it looks now. This is what Coach Greg Doucette talks about all the time as maingaining, which he advises from 15% bf, i.e. a slow weight gain while maintaining the same bf %. It's the ideal scenario for muscle gain, and if OP were to gain 8 pounds of muscle with the same bf %, his body composition will be much improved. And if it feels like too much fat is being gained, just go back to maintenance for a bit while continuing the lifting. The key is a small surplus, like one extra granola bar or protein bar, not chocolate milk shakes and scoops of peanut butter every day style.
@Retroguy2000 I think we are much closer to the same page than not. All my earlier posts suggested a 200 or so calorie bump above maintenance and compound lifts targeting major muscle groups 2-3 times a week. When you mentioned bulking I misread/misunderstood you to be suggesting a high calorie bro style bulk for the poster which I believe we both think is incorrect. That is when I suggested eating at maintenance (recomp) and the same lifting routine as opposed to what I thought you we calling bulking for this person.
I think either eating a 200 or so surplus or a recomp at maintenance calories is a much better option for the poster than a bro bulk or cutting. The addition 200 or so calories above maintenance would be better but either would be an improvement over the cutting and bro splits he's been doing.1 -
@Theoldguy1 Yeah it sounds like we're largely in agreement. No, I was never advocating for a "bro bulk". I've never heard that term, but I like it. A bro bulk for a 40 year old who was presumably overweight before, is an absolutely terrible idea. An extra 10 pounds on OP's frame that's mostly muscle though, and gained slowly with good progressive lifting, that will do wonders for his composition.2
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