Cut, Recomp or Bulk?
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mylittlechocobo
Posts: 25 Member
5'6", 35F, 110 lbs
Goal: Clearly defined abs
Currently here;
Notes;
-Been working out regular for several years, mix of both weights and body weight only.
-Always been fairly thin and it seems regardless what I do I hold around 110-115 lbs.
-Current routine is body weight only (no access to weights beyond a couple 10lb water jugs)
-1hr 5x/week (two upper, two lower, one full body, 10 min abs tacked on to each)
-No real cardio plan just some when I feel like it maybe a quick HIIT once a week.
-Diet is about 1700cal/day (maintenance), minimum 110g protein, not really strict on carb or fat amounts just whatever is left for calories chaotically split between the two.
I realize I have reasonable ab definition, just looking to take it that little bit further. My concern is with already being fairly slim at 110 lbs do I cut for fat loss? I don't want to end up looking like a skeleton with abs. Do I go for a recomp despite several years of training? Or try a bulk/cut cycle? Is body weight only going to be enough? Does my lack of consistency on carb/fat amounts hinder progress even if I'm hitting protein and calorie targets? Any tips, advice, thoughts or theories would be much appreciated.
P.S. This is not something I want to maintain for an extended period, more of a personal goal I set just to see if I could do it so I don't mind if it means buckling down hard for a period of time.
Goal: Clearly defined abs
Currently here;
Notes;
-Been working out regular for several years, mix of both weights and body weight only.
-Always been fairly thin and it seems regardless what I do I hold around 110-115 lbs.
-Current routine is body weight only (no access to weights beyond a couple 10lb water jugs)
-1hr 5x/week (two upper, two lower, one full body, 10 min abs tacked on to each)
-No real cardio plan just some when I feel like it maybe a quick HIIT once a week.
-Diet is about 1700cal/day (maintenance), minimum 110g protein, not really strict on carb or fat amounts just whatever is left for calories chaotically split between the two.
I realize I have reasonable ab definition, just looking to take it that little bit further. My concern is with already being fairly slim at 110 lbs do I cut for fat loss? I don't want to end up looking like a skeleton with abs. Do I go for a recomp despite several years of training? Or try a bulk/cut cycle? Is body weight only going to be enough? Does my lack of consistency on carb/fat amounts hinder progress even if I'm hitting protein and calorie targets? Any tips, advice, thoughts or theories would be much appreciated.
P.S. This is not something I want to maintain for an extended period, more of a personal goal I set just to see if I could do it so I don't mind if it means buckling down hard for a period of time.
0
Answers
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It sounds like you know at least as much about this as I do.
My suggestion would be definitely don't bulk. First, you already have good definition, especially in your core. Second, you aren't lifting weights.
You may have to lose about 5 pounds or so. However, you may be limited by genetics, including where your body chooses to store its last few pounds of fat, and the more you may need to lose, the harder it will be.
You'll probably want to cut out not only cheat days, also cheat meals. And increase your step count.
You may find this helpful. I assume it mostly carries over to women as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xZpHv67rD8 0 -
So up the cardio cut the calories?0
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mylittlechocobo wrote: »So up the cardio cut the calories?
I'm not Retro, and he can speak for himself. I'm going to be honest, maybe brutally honest.
First, let me say that IMO you look pretty great. I understand that you want more visible abs, and that's a very reasonable goal.
Here's the thing: At 5'6" and 110 pounds, even though you don't look it at all, you're technically already underweight (BMI 17.8). (I have trouble reconciling that with your appearance, and I understand that BMI is fraught. But still.)
I'm 5'5" and female at 133 pounds (just to be honest), have some faint hints of abdominal striations, but less than you have. I know very well-muscled women here around our height, and they're closer to or even above the normal-weight BMI. (For 5'6", normal BMI would be 114.5 to 154.)
That suggests to me at high odds that you're better off gaining muscle than losing fat, at this point.
If it were me, with your goals, I'd do the opposite of "up cardio, cut calories". I'd suggest "up calories" (to 100-200 over estimated maintenance) and "increase strength training". With the goal of visible abs, make that a lot of good compound strength exercises, and some focused core (not just abs) work.
Retro, based on the data given here, she's the BMI equivalent of a 6 foot guy at 131 pounds. Yes, women will usually be at a good weight lower in the BMI range than equivalent-height men . . . but give that a good think. Being technically underweight increases health risks, statistically speaking.
I'm sorry, @mylittlechocobo. I don't intend to be mean. Think of me as a concerned old internet granny, because I'm old enough to be your granny, or at least aging concerned auntie. I want to see you achieve your goals in an ultra-healthy way. I don't think "increase cardio, cut calories" is the right way in current circumstances.
Granny hugs and best wishes!
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In a vacuum, I'd say bulk, but as Retro said, without access to weights it gets harder to ensure the gain is muscle unless you have a very well-programmed bodyweight routine going. They do exist, and here are a few to look at. You say "two upper, two lower, one full-body" without details. Care to elaborate?1
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@AnnPT77
I greatly appreciate your knowledge and input here, and if we happen to disagree, that's fine.
There are a couple of issues with your reasoning imo.
First, BMI is a terrible indicator for an individual. TBH, I didn't even look at her weight number or consider BMI. I just looked at the picture. I saw someone in excellent shape, clearly with a good amount of muscle especially in the abs, and definitely not under-weight.
It's kind of like you're talking as if you looked only at her stats and not her picture (I know that's not the case, just indulge me), while I did the opposite.
Second, she only has bodyweight to work with at home, so that's why I wouldn't recommending increasing calories because without a simultaneous progressive overload program that would take her further from her goal. Perhaps it's possible with bw only, that's not my expertise, so I don't know.
I don't think people should chase six packs generally. I question the motivation for it (chasing social media personalities?), and getting to a low enough bf % seems like it's not fun, and difficult to maintain, and too low bf can result in hormonal changes, reduced energy, etc.
However, she said it's just a temporary goal, so I offered what I thought was the best route for her. Had it been a skinny fat guy with access to a gym my advice would be to bulk with a good program.
I did warn though that genetics may be a roadblock, so it may be that her goal ends up being unrealistic depending where the next few pounds of fat disappears from first. Or it may not.0 -
I’m absolutely no expert but my opinion is this…you’re looking for more definition…stick to your 1700 daily calorie intake but pay more attention to your carb and fat intake and purchase a set of dumbbells. In addition abs are as any other muscle in the body, sounds like your training them every day. If you are, then stop. They need rest to repair , build and define.
Best wishes on your journey1 -
Here's the thing: At 5'6" and 110 pounds, even though you don't look it at all, you're technically already underweight (BMI 17.8). (I have trouble reconciling that with your appearance, and I understand that BMI is fraught. But still.)
Totally get that, I'll admit the picture is somewhat deceiving as I purposely found the right lighting and angle to properly show the ab definition. I also just generally carry the majority of any extra weight in the midsection. If you had a full body 360 view it would be much more apparent which is to say I totally agree that I'm slightly underweight. Truthfully I just come from a family of beanstalks, I was well into my 20's before I managed to break 100lbs and not for lack of eating. Working out has actually been the biggest aid in getting me above that.That suggests to me at high odds that you're better off gaining muscle than losing fat, at this point.
If it were me, with your goals, I'd do the opposite of "up cardio, cut calories". I'd suggest "up calories" (to 100-200 over estimated maintenance) and "increase strength training". With the goal of visible abs, make that a lot of good compound strength exercises, and some focused core (not just abs) work.
Kind of where I was leaning. I mean the half of me says, it's a short term goal and perhaps I just go for losing the weight, if it's only 5lbs or so left to lose as Retro states, then I can bulk after and not really worry about it. The other half says that if I lost the extra 5lbs it wouldn't be the aesthetic I was looking for, kind of just skeletal, so why put my body through it.I'm sorry, @mylittlechocobo. I don't intend to be mean. Think of me as a concerned old internet granny, because I'm old enough to be your granny, or at least aging concerned auntie. I want to see you achieve your goals in an ultra-healthy way. I don't think "increase cardio, cut calories" is the right way in current circumstances.
Granny hugs and best wishes!
Not at all! I asked for opinions and you gave yours and I greatly appreciate that, I think it would be absurd of me to see that as being mean.
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In a vacuum, I'd say bulk, but as Retro said, without access to weights it gets harder to ensure the gain is muscle unless you have a very well-programmed bodyweight routine going. They do exist, and here are a few to look at. You say "two upper, two lower, one full-body" without details. Care to elaborate?
I follow Caroline Girvan on YouTube if you're familiar but here's a breakdown of what I'm currently doing;
Upper A: Triceps and Chest
DIPS
DIAMOND PUSH UPS
UNEVEN PUSH UPS (one set for each side)
PUSH UPS TO SIDE PLANK (one set for each side)
SINGLE ARM TRICEP PUSH UP (one set for each side)
TRICEP PUSH UP HOLD
WIDE PUSH UPS
SHOULDER TAPS
LOW PLANK KNEE TO SIDE
UP & DOWN PLANK
HAND PLANK KNEE TUCK TO ROTATE
HOLLOW LOW SCISSORS
TABLE TOP CRUNCH
TOE REACH PULSES
Repeat all x2
Finisher (higher pace)
LUNGE 3 POINT TAP (one set for each side)
MOUNTAIN CLIMBERS
PLANK TUCK TO PUSH UP
HAND PLANK JACKS
x2
UPPER B: Shoulders and Back
1 set of the following with pike holds between each
PIKE PUSH UP
PIKE SHOULDER TAPS
PUSH UPS
SHOULDER TAPS
PLANK LEAN
PLANK LEAN PUSH UP
1 set of the following with a body weight pullover between each
SCAPULAR PUSH UP
SINGLE ARM REAR FLY (palms down each side)
SINGLE ARM FLY REAR FLY (palms away each side)
SINGLE ARM DELT ROW (each side)
PUSH UP TO SHOULDER PRESS UP
BENT OVER LAT PULL DOWN
BENT OVER FLY (palm away)
REVERSE ANGEL
LAT PULL DOWN
LAT SWEEPS (palms up)
REAR FLY (palms down)
REAR FLY (palms away)
Finisher (higher pace)
BURPEE TO TUCK TO ALT LUNGE JUMPS
WALK OUT TO PUSH UP
x3
LOWER A: Quads
BULGARIAN LUNGES x 4 sets
BULGARIAN LUNGES QUAD x 4 sets
CLOSE SQUATS (no hips) x 4 sets
LATERAL LUNGE ON CHAIR x 4 sets
STEP UPS FORWARD STEP x 4sets
SIDE LUNGE TOES UP x 4 sets
STEP UPS SIDE STEP x 4sets
WALL SIT ALT LEG EXTENSION x 4 sets
PISTOL SQUATS x 2 sets
SQUAT HOLD x 2 sets
Finisher (higher pace)
BULGARIAN LUNGE JUMPS (each side)
SQUATS (no hips in)
TUCK TO EXTENSION
LOWER B: Glutes and Hamstrings
STRAIGHT LEG LIFT
45 deg STRAIGHT LEG LIFT
SIDE LEG LIFT
X OVER
DONKEY KICK
DONKEY KICK PULSE
DONKEY KICK TO FIRE HYDRANT
CIRCLES CLOCKWISE
CIRCLES ANTI CLOCKWISE
DOUBLE LEG LIFT
LEG LIFT HAMSTRING CURL
LEG OPENER
STANDING LEG LIFT
STANDING LEG LIFT PULSE
STANDING LEG LIFT WITH STRETCH
HAMSTRING BRIDGE
BRIDGE HOLD WITH LEG WIPER
CRUNCH
REVERSE CRUNCH
SLOW LEG LOWER
REVERSE CRUNCH
HOLLOW TO ALT HAND TO FOOT
GLUTE BRIDGE JUMP
SUMO DEADLIFT SQUAT
SQUAT HOLD KNEES OUT
BRIDGE LEG LOWER
Finisher (higher pace)
GLUTE BRIDGE JUMPS
SUMO DEADLIFT SQUAT
SQUAT HOLD KNEE ABDUCTION
BRIDGE HOLD LEG LOWER
GLUTE BRIDGE JUMPS
Full Body:
3 minute timer for each complex 10 sets per exercise repeating as many times as possible (i.e. 10x superman, 10x deadstop push up, 10x superman, 10x deadstop push up etc.) 20 sec rest then onto the next complex.
SUPERMAN
DEADSTOP PUSH UPS
HEEL ELEVATED SQUATS
1/2 REP SQUATS
(all same side)
LOW TO HIGH PLANK
UNEVEN PUSH UP
(switch side)
LOW TO HIGH PLANK
UNEVEN PUSH UP
(all same side)
ELEVATED CURTSEY LUNGE
ELEVATED STATIC LUNGE
(switch side)
ELEVATED CURTSEY LUNGE
ELEVATED STATIC LUNGE
PLANK HIPS UP & DOWN
PLANK HIP DROPS
(all same side)
REAR FOOT LIFT LUNGE
STAGGERED SQUAT
(switch side)
REAR FOOT LIFT LUNGE
STAGGERED SQUAT
TOE REACH
LEG LOWER
HOVER TO DOWNDOG
ALTERNATING KICK THRU
Two rest days I might do light cardio or a stretch but nothing structured.1 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »I don't think people should chase six packs generally. I question the motivation for it (chasing social media personalities?), and getting to a low enough bf % seems like it's not fun, and difficult to maintain, and too low bf can result in hormonal changes, reduced energy, etc.
However, she said it's just a temporary goal, so I offered what I thought was the best route for her. Had it been a skinny fat guy with access to a gym my advice would be to bulk with a good program.
My motivation is just that it's something difficult to achieve and I like the challenge of seeing how far I can push myself. I may ultimately decide it's not worth the cons but for now I feel pretty good and healthy despite what the scale might say. Honestly I went through a six week beet juice fast at one point (health reasons, not weight loss related) as well as a 10 day water fast (again health reasons) and they were way more brutal than anything I've experienced chasing this six pack. Maybe that gives me a false confidence in it but I feel like I could handle it if I chose the cutting option, at least as I said on a temporary basis.
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jknipper9484 wrote: »I’m absolutely no expert but my opinion is this…you’re looking for more definition…stick to your 1700 daily calorie intake but pay more attention to your carb and fat intake and purchase a set of dumbbells. In addition abs are as any other muscle in the body, sounds like your training them every day. If you are, then stop. They need rest to repair , build and define.
Best wishes on your journey
I have two dedicated rest days a week and I split my ab sessions in a way that I'd focus on lower abs then upper then a complete abs and a weighted abs. I also try to do more sort of core stabilizing exercises like the farmer's walk, around the worlds etc. Would you recommend a certain split for carbs and fat?0 -
@mylittlechocobo As I said I'm not well versed in the merits of bw programs, and my main issue would be how does someone progress? Maybe you can db bench press 30 pounds for 10 reps then you progress to 11 reps, 12 reps, then go up to 35 pounds and 10 reps, and so on. Thus your chest muscles and delts grow. But if you're doing the same bw workout every time, there's no reason for adaptation once you hit a certain level.0
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Retroguy2000 wrote: »@mylittlechocobo As I said I'm not well versed in the merits of bw programs, and my main issue would be how does someone progress? Maybe you can db bench press 30 pounds for 10 reps then you progress to 11 reps, 12 reps, then go up to 35 pounds and 10 reps, and so on. Thus your chest muscles and delts grow. But if you're doing the same bw workout every time, there's no reason for adaptation once you hit a certain level.
Agreed. While I do try to switch my program every 4-6weeks it's the nature of the beast that many exercise options are repeats. What I do is things like switch out standard push ups for a harder variation like archer or decline, or hold à water jug during squats, or I do have à small set of ankle weights for glutes...that kind of thing. Again though, it only goes so far.
To add to that I worked for ten years in a labour intensive job, lifting 25-50lbs several times a day everyday 12hrs a day, so I feel like with my body adapted to that level of work how do I push further on just bodyweight. Alas I don't currently have a way to access à range of weights.1 -
I recently purchased a set of Bodylastics bands for upcoming travel, and I'm very impressed with them for upper body. They aren't so good for lower body, though maybe you can get creative with leg extensions and lying leg curls. And they're easy to progress, by simply hooking another band to the handle as needed. It was just over $50 on Amazon for the set, including handles and anchors.mylittlechocobo wrote: »Alas I don't currently have a way to access à range of weights.
EDIT: Huh, the pack of six bands with 2 handles, 2 anchors and 2 leg straps I bought for $53 just five weeks ago isn't available now. They're only selling much larger packs for double the price. Maybe other places have them too.0 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »
I recently purchased a set of Bodylastics bands for upcoming travel, and I'm very impressed with them for upper body. They aren't so good for lower body, though maybe you can get creative with leg extensions and lying leg curls. And they're easy to progress, by simply hooking another band to the handle as needed. It was just over $50 on Amazon for the set, including handles and anchors.mylittlechocobo wrote: »Alas I don't currently have a way to access à range of weights.
EDIT: Huh, the pack of six bands with 2 handles, 2 anchors and 2 leg straps I bought for $53 just five weeks ago isn't available now. They're only selling much larger packs for double the price. Maybe other places have them too.
I did have a set of bands but over the years they got worn and snapped, can't say I dropped à fortune on them so to be expected I guess. Amazon won't deliver where I am but might be worth checking some local shops for something, good idea, thanks.1 -
When I was researching, Sunpower seemed the best option for full loop bands. Ofc they're much more expensive than the myriad cheapest price range options on Amazon, but those are also full of lots of people complaining about them snapping. The Bodylastics aren't loop bands, so that's probably much less of an issue, and they were cheaper at the time than the Sunpower bands which was another plus for me. And being used to db's, I like having handles.mylittlechocobo wrote: »I did have a set of bands but over the years they got worn and snapped, can't say I dropped à fortune on them so to be expected I guess. Amazon won't deliver where I am but might be worth checking some local shops for something, good idea, thanks.1 -
The old adage still holds true “ abs are made in the kitchen”. Plug in your info and let MFP give you the carb and fat breakdown for your daily intake.
Also as I’ve always understood abs should be worked no more than 3x/week. I know ppl break down upper abs and lower abs but the reality is it’s one muscle (rectus abdominus) . And even tho your working the upper portion or the lower portion both are in recruitment to some degree even if you’re focusing on one section through your movements. Soo you could try focusing on ab exercises 3x/week (every other day) on those exercises that recruit equally entire length of the muscles like v-ups (there’s plenty of them). That way you equally challenge the entire length of the muscle and are giving plenty rest in between. And don’t forget throw in oblique exercises Just a suggestion.
But again Food is crucial to minimizing the fat that covers the “six-pack “.
Good luck0 -
jknipper9484 wrote: »The old adage still holds true “ abs are made in the kitchen”. Plug in your info and let MFP give you the carb and fat breakdown for your daily intake.
Also as I’ve always understood abs should be worked no more than 3x/week. I know ppl break down upper abs and lower abs but the reality is it’s one muscle (rectus abdominus) . And even tho your working the upper portion or the lower portion both are in recruitment to some degree even if you’re focusing on one section through your movements. Soo you could try focusing on ab exercises 3x/week (every other day) on those exercises that recruit equally entire length of the muscles like v-ups (there’s plenty of them). That way you equally challenge the entire length of the muscle and are giving plenty rest in between. And don’t forget throw in oblique exercises Just a suggestion.
But again Food is crucial to minimizing the fat that covers the “six-pack “.
Good luck
I have messed around plugging in numbers just MFP offers à default of 50% carbs, 20% protein, 30% fat. I tend to aim more 30% protein but past that not sure on the best carb to fat split or whether it matters beyond making sure you have some carbs in pre and post workout.
Noted, I do realize all abs are worked somewhat regardless of focus as well as inadvertantly during other excersices and activities. I suppose mostly I just don't tend to feel much soreness or "burn" in my abs so I keep going with it. And yes I didnt give a very detailed run down on abs exercises but do incorporate v ups and the like as well as hitting obliques and some isolation work.
For sure, thanks for the input.
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I'd suggest estimating your protein and fat goals in grams rather than percents (because they can be distorted based on calorie intake).
Rough rules of thumb: Protein minimum, 0.6-0.8 or even 1g daily per pound of healthy goal weight (I'd use mid-normal-BMI in your case, so 81g bare minimum, 107-134g better). Fats, 0.35-0.45g per pound (so 47-60g), which is a little more than a male might get away with.
If you want a more nuanced protein estimate, this is a potential source:
https://examine.com/protein-intake-calculator/
https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake/
Carbs are more flexible, but can affect energy level or appetite.
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It's a common misconception that you have to increase weight used in order to continue to progress in strength. This thread contains a number of options for how to make your current workout harder, without purchasing anything. Granted, I wrote it with an eye towards people who have at least some type of weights to sling around, but several of the principles apply just as well towards bodyweight training, like slowing down reps, adjusting rest times, changing angles, etc.1
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@nossmf thanks, I will check that out. Also regarding workout routine it seems I forgot to write it in but regarding upper/lower workouts it's timer as well, 45-50s work 15-10s rest. So when it says 4 sets etc it actually means as many reps as I get in that 45-50s then 15-10s rest then repeat x4. To clarify.0
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