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Marriage or not?
ninerbuff
Posts: 48,982 Member
in Debate Club
So I divorced after being married 24 years. Luckily for us it was mutual and finances were not an issue for either of us. I believe now that marriage licenses can trap people legally in a relationship that they may not really had thought long term about, or just did it to appease family, friends and/or to just not lose that person in their life.
I will NEVER get married again because I think it's such a bad indicator if two people are really committed to each other or not. The assumption previously is that when two people are married, they are totally connected and the "till death do us part" held true.
But in today's social media, you can meet just about anyone in the world, facetime and conversate, etc. that even MARRIED people do it behind their spouses back. At that point, the marriage didn't deter them from seeking out someone else.
IMO, if two people want to be together and are really into each other, you DON'T need a marriage license to prove it. I know people get the license for LEGAL reasons and the protection for the significant other, but wills and trust take care of those as well if something happens. If I end up with someone else for a period of time and really love them, I'll provide what they need for them once I'm gone.
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Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I will NEVER get married again because I think it's such a bad indicator if two people are really committed to each other or not. The assumption previously is that when two people are married, they are totally connected and the "till death do us part" held true.
But in today's social media, you can meet just about anyone in the world, facetime and conversate, etc. that even MARRIED people do it behind their spouses back. At that point, the marriage didn't deter them from seeking out someone else.
IMO, if two people want to be together and are really into each other, you DON'T need a marriage license to prove it. I know people get the license for LEGAL reasons and the protection for the significant other, but wills and trust take care of those as well if something happens. If I end up with someone else for a period of time and really love them, I'll provide what they need for them once I'm gone.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Replies
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Oh, good grief.
I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out after 24 years. I think this is provoking a baby/bathwater kind of response here, or at least an absolutist one.
I was married for just under 21 years, then widowed (in 1998). It wasn't a perfect marriage (is there such a thing, truly? dunno). But the pros outweighed the cons significantly, at least to that point. Being single is also fine, from my perspective. Pros and cons of being single, too.
I'm not saying it's wrong, but I've never understood opinions on marriage in the abstract, or opinions about whether it's ever right for anyone/everyone.
After I was widowed, and had been for a bit, people would ask me if I wanted to get married again. To me, that's a completely unanswerable and even illogical question. If I met someone that I wanted to be married to, and they felt the same, I'd marry again. I'm not going out shopping for that person. To me, it's about the person and the relationship, not some abstract perspective on the institution.
Heck, I didn't think I'd ever be married, back in the day . . . but I reached a point with the guy who was my late husband where it seemed like the most sensible thing to do, honestly. I married younger than a fair fraction of my college friends, as a result.
For other people I've known (I wanna say more commonly it's women, though not exclusively), marriage is more a part of their identity, i.e., they Just. Want. To. Be. Married. It's super important to them. I'm not judging, but that's 3000% not me.
Maybe it's just me, but I do think that marriage is a more complex proposition when older, like middle-aged-ish or beyond. We're more set in our ways, often. Things like finances are more complicated. Maybe there are offspring in the equation whose opinions matter. If there's sufficient impetus, I'm guessing those things can be managed.
Never say never, but I don't think I'd marry again without some kind of formal financial agreement in the mix. I also agree with you, @ninerbuff, that there are arrangements other than formal legal marriage that may suit better, depending on circumstances.10 -
Been with my wife since we were 15 years old. We are both 55 now. Where did those 40 years go? lol
We have had our ups and downs. 2 beautiful daughters and are looking forward to retiring with each other someday.
She is my rock and soul mate. If she ever decided to leave me, or heaven forbid pass before me it would be devastating.
Would I ever marry again? Nope because I wouldn't want to be subjected to being let go again.
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@ninerbuff, I agree with you 100%. Very unpopular opinion in my area and opposite of the way I was raised, but I don't care. I'm very happy single. If I find someone I want to spend time with, fine. But the law does not need to be involved to "prove" my dedication to the relationship.5
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Sorry about your divorce. I married my mother's choice, not mine. He was an alcoholic. Not a mean alcoholic, a party boy. He partied while I raised the kids. My mom wrote me out of her will after a fight with him. She said the b-d would never get any of her money. I laughed. I cried. He married me for her money.
I really believe that marriage is a government thing. Deeds. Taxes. Insurance.
Commitment is a whole different ballgame.
They can co-exist. They can be totally separate.
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I think there are significant differences between the US and Europe, so I'll specify that I'm European. Recently celebrated my 20 year anniversary with my boyfriend. Yes, boyfriend. We've been living together for 18 or 19 years. No need for us to get married. We don't even have an official civil union registered with my government.
A bit more paperwork and some differences regarding inheritances, but aside from that it's the same as any marriage or civil union. Works fine for us!
And as a woman, I've never dreamt of my wedding dress or anything like that. (The wedding party/ ceremony itself is actually the last appealing part of marriage 😆 )
Mariage and commitment are two separate concepts/ things that sometimes overlap, each one of these can certainly exist without the other.6 -
I'm still open to getting married again..if I can find a guy would feel blessed and eternally grateful to be married to me..
who adores me, tells me how beautiful I am, holds my hand walking, and generally wants to make me happy. Also, is someone who is extremely honest and who I respect ,love, and admire.
Fortunately, I am a bit a loner and completely happy if I end up never finding that guy. 🤣1 -
AdahPotatah2024 wrote: »I'm still open to getting married again..if I can find a guy would feel blessed and eternally grateful to be married to me..
who ador es me, tells me how beautiful I am, holds my hand walking, and generally wants to make me happy. Aflso, is someone who is extremely honest and who I respect ,love, and admire.
Fortunately, I am a bit a loner and completely happy if I end up never finding that guy. 🤣
If you find that guy, he'll be exhausted from running from all the women. Lol.7 -
Oh, and he has to work out a lot, but not care that I'm a little chunky. 🩷💕😋4
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It's funny that it's such a big thing in the US. I dunno, maybe the dream for a lot of women in America is that wedding day is THEIR day and they need it along with mother. From my experience, most men don't really concern themselves on big extravagant, go all out, impress your family and friends wedding. We had that. 250 of family and friends and while the wedding was cool, I'm sure most of them were just there to party at the reception. Not to say they weren't happy for us, but most weddings are about the reception and not really about the union. And today, it's almost like a competition with other weddings because of social media because you see all the wedding dances becoming productions rather than in old school days where first dances weren't about how great the performance was, but that it was about two people not caring about what it really looked like, but that it was their first dance together. I'm all for entertainment, but as I said I believe now it's more about entertainment value of the dance and production.I think there are significant differences between the US and Europe, so I'll specify that I'm European. Recently celebrated my 20 year anniversary with my boyfriend. Yes, boyfriend. We've been living together for 18 or 19 years. No need for us to get married. We don't even have an official civil union registered with my government.
A bit more paperwork and some differences regarding inheritances, but aside from that it's the same as any marriage or civil union. Works fine for us!
And as a woman, I've never dreamt of my wedding dress or anything like that. (The wedding party/ ceremony itself is actually the last appealing part of marriage 😆 )
Mariage and commitment are two separate concepts/ things that sometimes overlap, each one of these can certainly exist without the other.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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In a couple weeks, my wife and I will celebrate 22 years married. Next year, my parents will celebrate 50 years married, my sister will hit 20 years. Both sets of my grandparents were married 55+ years before death did they part.
My uncle has lived for years with his partner, does not feel the need to get married. My brother intends to remain single for life.
All of us have lived happy, productive lives. Marriage is not required, and I would not trade being married to my wife for anything. Each person can decide for themselves what route will make them happy and fulfilled.6 -
I got married 24 years ago, and it was important to me at that time. My OH went missing (long story but he was fine, all a misunderstanding) and the police launched a search for him. They thought he’d fallen into a fast flowing river and were looking for a body. I had lived with him for 3 years yet the police told me I wouldn’t be able to identify the body - it would have to be his mother as next of kin. Times may have changed now, but the legal situation then meant I had no rights as his common law partner.
I think common law spouses have equal rights now (UK) so it wouldn’t be an issue, but it was important to me at that time.4 -
Hi All,
This is my first post. Interesting topic. I turned 70 in January and have been alone since February when I evicted my chronic alcoholic BF of 20 years. I got sober 2.5 years ago and he wasn't any support. I want to take control of my life and get even healthier. I decided at 17 I didn't want to marry or have kids. I am happy for that decision. Living with no regrets.
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claireychn074 wrote: »I got married 24 years ago, and it was important to me at that time. My OH went missing (long story but he was fine, all a misunderstanding) and the police launched a search for him. They thought he’d fallen into a fast flowing river and were looking for a body. I had lived with him for 3 years yet the police told me I wouldn’t be able to identify the body - it would have to be his mother as next of kin. Times may have changed now, but the legal situation then meant I had no rights as his common law partner.
I think common law spouses have equal rights now (UK) so it wouldn’t be an issue, but it was important to me at that time.
THIS
I won’t get into too many details, but in the early stages of my husband’s dementia he looked OK to people who didn’t know him as well as I did. And he developed a paranoia where he believed I was somehow conspiring to do awful things to him. This was before what I call “the obvious strokes” but it’s very likely he had neurological damage in the years prior to those.
“Friends” and, shockingly, most relatives, actually supported his delusions without ever asking me anything about my side of things. It was a truly nightmarish experience and it was about 4 years before I was able to get a diagnosis from a neuropsychologist at the VA.
The only thing I had in my favor was that marriage license. It meant he couldn’t sell our house to his ex (something she was trying very hard to get him to do - she is not a good person) And it meant that during the days prior to the official dementia diagnosis I was able to discuss things with his doctors and they would actually listen.
After the dementia diagnosis that marriage license means a ton of legal rights that are very important to both of us. Yes I also have both legal and medical Power of Attorney.
But post diagnosis, the marriage alone was enough to keep the toxic financially abusive family members away from him.
Marriage has three components
Religious, legal, and cultural.
I really liked the religious aspect of our own particular vows. That is a personal thing.
The cultural aspect of marriage was definitely something I navigated at times. For example, being the wife of a second degree black belt carried some social expectations at official Tae Kwon Do events. Mostly looking pretty and being quiet. Both difficult for me. 😂
The legal aspect wasn’t something I really thought about at all. Until it became obvious that I had the power and moral obligation (that I chose to fulfill) to protect him from literal predators in his life.
Marriage is a personal choice, and it is definitely a concept that evolves over time and is different from culture to culture.
As long as all parties are adults and enter into it with full consent? To each their own.
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »claireychn074 wrote: »I got married 24 years ago, and it was important to me at that time. My OH went missing (long story but he was fine, all a misunderstanding) and the police launched a search for him. They thought he’d fallen into a fast flowing river and were looking for a body. I had lived with him for 3 years yet the police told me I wouldn’t be able to identify the body - it would have to be his mother as next of kin. Times may have changed now, but the legal situation then meant I had no rights as his common law partner.
I think common law spouses have equal rights now (UK) so it wouldn’t be an issue, but it was important to me at that time.
THIS
I won’t get into too many details, but in the early stages of my husband’s dementia he looked OK to people who didn’t know him as well as I did. And he developed a paranoia where he believed I was somehow conspiring to do awful things to him. This was before what I call “the obvious strokes” but it’s very likely he had neurological damage in the years prior to those.
“Friends” and, shockingly, most relatives, actually supported his delusions without ever asking me anything about my side of things. It was a truly nightmarish experience and it was about 4 years before I was able to get a diagnosis from a neuropsychologist at the VA.
The only thing I had in my favor was that marriage license. It meant he couldn’t sell our house to his ex (something she was trying very hard to get him to do - she is not a good person) And it meant that during the days prior to the official dementia diagnosis I was able to discuss things with his doctors and they would actually listen.
After the dementia diagnosis that marriage license means a ton of legal rights that are very important to both of us. Yes I also have both legal and medical Power of Attorney.
But post diagnosis, the marriage alone was enough to keep the toxic financially abusive family members away from him.
Marriage has three components
Religious, legal, and cultural.
I really liked the religious aspect of our own particular vows. That is a personal thing.
The cultural aspect of marriage was definitely something I navigated at times. For example, being the wife of a second degree black belt carried some social expectations at official Tae Kwon Do events. Mostly looking pretty and being quiet. Both difficult for me. 😂
The legal aspect wasn’t something I really thought about at all. Until it became obvious that I had the power and moral obligation (that I chose to fulfill) to protect him from literal predators in his life.
Marriage is a personal choice, and it is definitely a concept that evolves over time and is different from culture to culture.
As long as all parties are adults and enter into it with full consent? To each their own.
I AM a 2nd Degree Black Belt with UK medals. Fortunately that never went with needing to be pretty or quiet! 🤣2 -
There is no right or wrong to this argument. As others have said, it is entirely a personal choice.
I'm going to be celebrating my 34th anniversary this September 1. There have been ups and downs and at one point I felt like kicking him out the door but now I can't imagine doing that and the past 10 years have been wonderful. He is my rock, my loving partner and, as an aside, a great support during this weight loss journey of mine.4 -
I agree that it is all personal choice. However in some cultures, not being married after a certain age can be viewed as failure. Also in some cultures, especially how men are viewed, that if not married, they are just out looking to have as many affairs (not that it doesn't happen if married), while with someone.There is no right or wrong to this argument. As others have said, it is entirely a personal choice.
I'm going to be celebrating my 34th anniversary this September 1. There have been ups and downs and at one point I felt like kicking him out the door but now I can't imagine doing that and the past 10 years have been wonderful. He is my rock, my loving partner and, as an aside, a great support during this weight loss journey of mine.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I think whether you find officially-sanctioned marriage desirable or not is largely up to your religion and culture. Both of which are evolving at crazy-making rates, so acting on the proscriptions of those areas is not only deeply personal, but also likely reflective of the time period you got married (or didn't). I suspect that not even Christians are that worked up over things like living together while you're engaged or who the breadwinner will be. (That's just a guess, I don't really know any religious people).
To me, the focus should be on the legal aspects. I wish people were better educated on the legalities of marriage vs. not-marriage. Yes, marriage confers a lot of legal rights, but every single one can be replicated legally. Even if you do get married, a strong estate plan outlining legal authority, wishes for your care, and final arrangements should be a priority, particularly if your preference for certain aspects don't include your spouse. I also suggest a strong, legally negotiated, and executed pre-nup, but people seem to have strong feelings about those. Probably the thing I'm most grateful for from my marriage is that it provided a huge impetus for my own legal planning. That planning was incredibly valuable as we separated and even more so now that I'm single.
That said, from a personal perspective, I don't see a reason for marriage in my future. My relationship with my ex is the single greatest regret of my adult life and I don't care to revisit the institution. While I'm not anti-marriage by any means, I just can't imagine a scenario where it would be needful or desirable in my life. The risk is definitely not worth whatever theoretical reward there might be. I've actually been dumped twice now by men who got frustrated with my unwillingness to "commit" or "move forward" in our relationship. But it's just not worth the risk when I have my own future to worry about.8 -
Well, I'd have to say I agree. I've been married twice, and from my experiences and from what I've seen in general nowadays marriage tends to re-enforce negative behavior. (You're not going to leave me, so I can do whatever) I get this is not everywhere, and many people have good marriages and work through things. I have a steady GF (we live together) and it is amazing, however neither one of us are going to move for marriage as what we have now is great. The benefits of marriage seem to be purely legal now with insurance, taxes, finances, etc. Which is fairly easy to work around if both people are working.1
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Do whatever you want to do and I am really glad that society expectations (i n most of the western world anyway) have evolved so people dont feel pressure to get married or be with somebody if they dont want to or it doesn't work out for them.
I have been married for 38 years and I am happy with that choice for me.1 -
Marriage should expire at the six year mark. The couple is required to spend a year apart. At which point they can start a new six year marriage if they want.
Like Jubilee in the bible.
I hope you find this new arrangement works well for you @ninerbuff1 -
Some countries (such as mine) do not recognize common law marriage, so people are aware they are taking a risk as they age and medical complications are more prone to appear. Other countries (such as mine again!) offer options for civil marriage, including the separation of goods choice - an annex gets added to your marriage contract with each property you acquire, specifying owner and percentage, and it is favoured by businesspeople as it insulates each individual in case of trouble.
My husband and I met here on MFP years ago, then reconnected in 2021. This is the second marriage for the both of us. We went in knowing it will also be the last. For both of us, going through (no-fault) divorces previously was incredibly eye-opening and a huge personal growth process. It made us re-evaluate reason, paper, vow and future individually and together, in a way that for either of us it was only natural to marry.
But that's just our story and choice. There are so many forms of cohabiting (or even being together while living apart) between partners, and all of them are perfectly acceptable today. The only important thing is for the couple (or whatever configuration of 2+ people there is, since poly is on the rise) to be truly on the same page about it all.3 -
Married 38 years after a four-week courtship. Couldn’t be happier.
Naturally, hoped for the same for our kids. Have learned, paper means nothing. Both got married, one endured a miserable, emotionally abusive marriage with a serial cheater who isolated her from family.
When the dam of silence finally broke, she filed for divorce. She was afraid we’d be ashamed and disappointed in her. Hell no!
Now she’s got a wonderful partner, but is scared spitless to remarry. It’s not what we’d hope- we’d like the safety and security marriage provides-especially if there’s kid(s) down the road, but ya know what? it’s not our life and not our business. And who can blame her?
All that matters is that she’s happy and satisfied. A piece of paper isn’t going to provide that. Times have changed. and laws are changing to keep up with the new relationships. 👍🏻
She’s in Europe, which seems to have wider experience of, and better protection for, partnership relationships than the US.
Had she not been legally married it would have been a hella lot easier- and cheaper- to extricate herself from this miserable POS. It works both ways.4 -
Incredibly old fashioned here.
If you're going to breed, get married and stay married. And yes, I already can hear keyboards typing out "B-b-but my ex was a terrible person I am well rid of!" Hence the importance of recognizing the dif between a good mate and a poor choice long before saying "I do".
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If only it were that simple.
I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser
And no people ever change as time goes on.
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Yeah that's hard. And those type of people tend to also treat their spouses more as property and not partner.paperpudding wrote: »If only it were that simple.
I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser
And no people ever change as time goes on.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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paperpudding wrote: »If only it were that simple. I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser. And no people ever change as time goes on.
Yeah that's hard. And those type of people tend to also treat their spouses more as property and not partner.paperpudding wrote: »If only it were that simple.
I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser
And no people ever change as time goes on.
Since this is Debate Club, I contend that barring severe head trauma, very few people on the planet undergo a 180° personality change between altar and divorce decree. Most bad choices display more red flags than Moscow on May Day from Day One.
Early on, did that ex occasionally bend the truth for gain or to smooth life's path? Bad mouth or manipulate an ex? Exact acts of dishonesty, revenge or pique? Walk away from responsibility? Avoid, disrespect, dislike or not help their parents? Have outbursts of anger language or tantrum physicality? Shout or throw insults in anger or frustration at anyone? Road rage? Substance abuse? Whine, sulk, withhold, cajole or pout until they get their way? Have to be "right" in every instance? Did that "you belong to me" once sound endearing?
No one is perfect, but the signs of a bad match are likely clearly visible from space and glossed over under desire's spell, youthful inexperience, the wish to change circumstance or simply be part of a couple.4 -
No one is perfect..
😁 Indeed. Wise communities create options for people when they make mistakes.
And as you reminded us we are in debate club, that first time the husband grabs his new wife's shoulder or arm, he pushes her, he slaps her, he punches her, etc. The community should have a free ten lane autobahn for her to leave in one second, like smoke, with everything available she needs to safely and securely get away with all she cares for and owns. She gets community resources that she needs to live as a whole contributing member of the community. That is in the communities best interest. It's a lot cheaper than emergency room visits, or incarcerating a murderous spouse.
Lastly, as an old guy I can say this. All young people should make cool rational well thought-out decisions about sex and attraction and play and love and desire and dreams of their future. Just kidding.3 -
paperpudding wrote: »If only it were that simple. I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser. And no people ever change as time goes on.
Yeah that's hard. And those type of people tend to also treat their spouses more as property and not partner.paperpudding wrote: »If only it were that simple.
I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser
And no people ever change as time goes on.
Since this is Debate Club, I contend that barring severe head trauma, very few people on the planet undergo a 180° personality change between altar and divorce decree. Most bad choices display more red flags than Moscow on May Day from Day One.
Early on, did that ex occasionally bend the truth for gain or to smooth life's path? Bad mouth or manipulate an ex? Exact acts of dishonesty, revenge or pique? Walk away from responsibility? Avoid, disrespect, dislike or not help their parents? Have outbursts of anger language or tantrum physicality? Shout or throw insults in anger or frustration at anyone? Road rage? Substance abuse? Whine, sulk, withhold, cajole or pout until they get their way? Have to be "right" in every instance? Did that "you belong to me" once sound endearing?
No one is perfect, but the signs of a bad match are likely clearly visible from space and glossed over under desire's spell, youthful inexperience, the wish to change circumstance or simply be part of a couple.
How long have you been married for? I would, of course, assume you've NEVER been divorced, so I won't ask that. How many kids do you have? How old? If they're adults, are they married yet?0 -
chris_in_cal wrote: »All young people should
BTW: This is my POV coming from an old guy who has never been married.
Though ladies I'm open too it.
💕
Speaking of being rational cool calm and collected. One of my favorite jokes was a women comic who said about dating apps: The only picture she needs is a man standing on a scale holding up a copy of his current FICO credit score.
Ha! I'm good to go on one of those, the other....well, that's why I am here on MFP.1 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »How long have you been married for? I would, of course, assume you've NEVER been divorced, so I won't ask that. How many kids do you have? How old? If they're adults, are they married yet?
Together for 30+ years with differences and debates, but never once a raised voice argument. IMO the mutual respect is the strongest bond. The thought of making the other unhappy or disappointed would be the worst thing imaginable.
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