How much Protein is too Much??

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  • digitalsteel
    digitalsteel Posts: 374 Member
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    I know, I get it, I kind of expect that response. Speaking on forums is much more difficult for me than giving a lecture. I can't come across as respectable giving my information using this manor. But before you revoke me as just being nuts, I lecture on the idea that I can spark some interest in the topic. I hope that those who listen to me put their own effort into finding out what I have.
  • MikeSEA
    MikeSEA Posts: 1,074 Member
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    I know, I get it, I kind of expect that response. Speaking on forums is much more difficult for me than giving a lecture. I can't come across as respectable giving my information using this manor. But before you revoke me as just being nuts, I lecture on the idea that I can spark some interest in the topic. I hope that those who listen to me put their own effort into finding out what I have.

    I have no reason to think you're nuts...not yet anyway :). It would be very irrational of me to assume you're a whack job just because your claim isn't yet well-supported. And generally I think everyone should do their own research on the topic. It does spawn conversations about authoritative sources from time to time, but that's not a bad thing either.
  • sallywilson06
    sallywilson06 Posts: 269 Member
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    Just wondering, but I thought that there were good carbs and bad carbs. The Good carbs are 100% whole grain and the bad carbs are the "Enriched" ones that are just fillers and have empty calories.. the whole grain is best because it fills you up and gives you energy and the Enriched is just empty... Right?
  • MikeSEA
    MikeSEA Posts: 1,074 Member
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    "good" and "bad" are qualifiers that need a context. Let's compare steel-cut oatmeal and yukon gold potato, for example. They're both carbs. They provide fuel for the body. They're both not processed (much), but they affect the body differently.

    Some people would have you believe that that "white" carby potato is bad for you. It does 'hit your system' quicker, certainly, but if you've just finished running several miles, that's not a bad thing. Likewise the steel-cuts would release energy more slowly and would be better consumed before your workout.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    @Sunshine_88 I am gonna have to disagree with you on the idea that carbs are not the enemy. No offence, but everything I've studied about nutrition points to them as the problem

    Not during caloric deficits they aren't.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    Your right, they are not a general evil, just the ones that cause insulin to go up.

    Insulin is also not the enemy.

    I would very much encourage you read the following:
    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
  • digitalsteel
    digitalsteel Posts: 374 Member
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    @Sunshine_88 I am gonna have to disagree with you on the idea that carbs are not the enemy. No offence, but everything I've studied about nutrition points to them as the problem

    Not during caloric deficits they aren't.

    I beg to differ. Insulin prevents the metabolization of body fat. It is what is responsible for locking fat into triglycerides that are too big to leave your fat cells. Your body burns carbs first because they are toxic to you if the amount of glucose produced raises your total blood sugar to more than 5 grams.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    I beg to differ. Insulin prevents the metabolization of body fat. It is what is responsible for locking fat into triglycerides that are too big to leave your fat cells. Your body burns carbs first because they are toxic to you if the amount of glucose produced raises your total blood sugar to more than 5 grams.

    Please read the article I attached.
    EDIT: I won't bother to paraphrase the article. I would suggest you read it and offer your opinion after you have read it.
  • digitalsteel
    digitalsteel Posts: 374 Member
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    I beg to differ. Insulin prevents the metabolization of body fat. It is what is responsible for locking fat into triglycerides that are too big to leave your fat cells. Your body burns carbs first because they are toxic to you if the amount of glucose produced raises your total blood sugar to more than 5 grams.

    Please read the article I attached.
    EDIT: I won't bother to paraphrase the article. I would suggest you read it and offer your opinion after you have read it.

    You realize the information found in this is based on one, highly discredited resource http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/1/69.full.pdf+html

    If you must take that as your evidence, very well, its your body.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    You realize the information found in this is based on one, highly discredited resource http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/1/69.full.pdf+html

    If you must take that as your evidence, very well, its your body.

    Edited, I'll play nice. We will agree to disagree on this, good day and good luck with your fitness goals.
  • digitalsteel
    digitalsteel Posts: 374 Member
    Options


    You realize the information found in this is based on one, highly discredited resource http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/1/69.full.pdf+html

    If you must take that as your evidence, very well, its your body.

    Irony coming from a Taubes fan. We will agree to disagree on this, good day and good luck with your fitness goals.

    Is it wrong to promote accurate information? I've gathered for you every study I've read over the years. Feel free, it only took me several years to have found and read through it all.

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    Howard, B. V., L. Van Horn, J. Hsia, et al. 2006. “Low-Fat Dietary Pattern and Risk of Cardiovascular Disease: The Women’s Health Initiative Randomized Controlled Dietary Modification Trial.” Journal of the American Medical Association. Feb 8;295(6):655–66. Katan, M. B. 2009. “Weight-Loss Diets for the Prevention and Treatment of Obesity.” New England Journal of Medicine. Feb 26;360(9):923–25. Kuklina, E. V., P. W. Yoon, and N. L. Keenan. 2009. “Trends in High Levels of Low-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol in the United States, 1999–2006.” Journal of the American Medical Association. Nov 18;302(19):2104–10. Luchsinger, J. A., and D. R. Gustafson. 2009. “Adiposity, Type 2 Diabetes, and Alzheimer’s Disease.” Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease. Apr;16(4):693–704. Maher, P. A., and D. R. Schubert. 2009. “Metabolic Links Between Diabetes and Alzheimer’s Disease.” Expert Reviews of Neurotherapeutics. Oct;111(2): 332–43. Neal, E. G., and J. H. Cross. 2010. “Efficacy of Dietary Treatments for Epilepsy.” Journal of Human Nutrition and Dietetics. Apr;23(2):113–19. Packard, C. J. 2006. “Small Dense Low-Density Lipoprotein and Its Role as an Independent Predictor of Cardiovascular Disease.” Current Opinions in Lipidology. Aug;17(4):412–17. Sacks, G. A., G. A. Bray, V. J. Carey, et al. 2009. “Comparison of Weight-Loss Diets with Different Compositions of Fat, Protein, and Carbohydrates.” New England Journal of Medicine. Feb 26;360(9):859–73. Samaha, F. F., N. Iqubal, P. Seshadri, et al. 2003. “A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity.” New England Journal of Medicine. May 22;348(21):2074–81. Seyfried, B. T., M. Klebish, J. Marsh, and P. Mukherjee. 2009. “Targeting Energy Metabolism in Brain Cancer Through Calorie Restriction and the Ketogenic Diet.” Journal of Cancer Research Therapy. Sep;5(Suppl 1):S7–S15. Shai, I., D. Schwarzfuchs, Y. Henkin, et al. 2008. “Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet.” New England Journal of Medicine. Jul 17;359(3):229–41.Siri, P. M., and R. M. Krauss. 2005. “Influence of Dietary Carbohydrate and Fat on LDL and HDL Particle Distributions.” Current Atherosclerosis Reports. Nov;7(6):455–59. Skeaff, C. M., and J. Miller. 2009. “Dietary Fat and Coronary Heart Disease: Summary of Evidence from Prospective Cohort and Randomised Controlled Trials.” Annals of Nutrition & Metabolism. 55(1–3):173–201. Sondike, S. B., N. Copperman, and M. S. Jacobson. 2003. “Effects of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Weight Loss and Cardiovascular Risk Factor in Overweight Adolescents.” Journal of Pediatrics. Mar;142(3):253–58. Will, J. C., and T. Byers. 1996. “Does Diabetes Mellitus Increase the Requirement for Vitamin C?” Nutrition Reviews. Jul;54(7):193–202. Wilson, P. W., and J. B. Meigs. 2008. “Cardiometabolic Risk: a Framingham Perspective.” International Journal of Obesity. May;32(Suppl 2):S17–S20. World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research. 2007. Food, Nutrition, Physical Activity and the Prevention of Cancer: a Global Perspective. Washington, D.C.: American Institute for Cancer Research.Allan, C. B., and W. Lutz. 2000. Life Without Bread: How a Low-Carbohydrate Diet Can Save Your Life. New York: McGraw-Hill. Kemp, R. 1972. “The Over-All Picture of Obesity.” Practitioner. Nov;209:654–60. ——. 1966. “Obesity as a Disease.” Practitioner. Mar;196:404–9. ——. 1963. “Carbohydrate Addiction.” Practitioner. Mar;190:358–364. Lecheminant, J. D., C. A. Gibson, D. K. Sullivan, et al. 2007. “Comparison of a Low Carbohydrate and Low Fat Diet for Weight Maintenance in Overweight or Obese Adults Enrolled in a Clinical Weight Management Program.” Nutrition Journal. Nov 1;6:36.Phinney, S. D. “Ketogenic Diets and Physical Performance.” Nutrition & Metabolism. Aug 17;1(1):2. Sidbury, J. B., Jr., and R. P. Schwartz. 1975. A Program for Weight Reduction in Children. In Childhood Obesity, ed. P. Collip, pp. 65–74: Acton, Mass.: Publishing Sciences Group. Westman, E. C., W. S. Yancy, J. C. Mavropoulos, M. Marquart, J. R. McDuffie. 2008. “The Effect of a Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Glycemic Index Diet on Glycemic Control in Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus.” Nutrition and Metabolism. Dec 19;5:36. Westman, E. C., W. S. Yancy, M. K. Olsen, T. Dudley, J. R. Guyton. 2006. “Effect of a Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet Program Compared to a Low-Fat Diet on Fasting Lipoprotein Subclasses.” International Journal of Cardiology. June 16;110(2):212–16.

    Hopefully this bout of work on my part will gain me some credibility.
  • MikeSEA
    MikeSEA Posts: 1,074 Member
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    It's gained credibility on being able to put together a list of articles, but not much more than that. Here's how it works:

    Step 1. Make claim.
    Step 2. Back it up with an articulate explanation of the source you're using.
    Step 3. Allow others to review said source in the context in which you're using it.
    Step 4. Address and offer logical rebuttals as appropriate.

    See how none of this has happened yet?

    EDIT: and just because it caught my eye...Rats? are you serious? Rats have wildly different metabolic process. Especially males. They have a sex-linked hormone that makes their processing of fats significantly different than other mammals. Then again I think the source was from the 1950s. Some of these are highly culturally-specific and behavioral. I'm sorry I can't stop laughing at some of these.
  • sawoobley
    Options
    digitalsteel

    Is it wrong to promote accurate information? I've gathered for you every study I've read over the years. Feel free, it only took me several years to have found and read through it all.

    Hopefully this bout of work on my part will gain me some credibility.

    Making a list of irrelevant and poorly constructed studies and parroting the work of Taubes which has been discredited is pointless. Who wants to fish through your wall of text to see if you have a valid point? I've already read Taubes debate several people and he gets destroyed each time. Poor guy tries to argue against the laws of thermodynamics and the bulk of peer reviewed scientific evidence.

    If you want to discuss a few articles then that would be much more productive. However, you'll find that the articles you use to make your point are poorly designed. The studies put carbs in a negative light by mismatching protein levels, having a deficient protein diet or calories levels that are not controlled properly.

    You've already been presented with a link to evidence to the contrary which cites sufficient peer reviewed scientific evidence and you've ignored it.
  • digitalsteel
    digitalsteel Posts: 374 Member
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    If you aren't willing to do the work to get the full spectrum of the information I have, than why are you bothering to argue at all. Honestly, I was hoping you'd be better than that. I read the study that claims insulin is not the evil thing science has made it out to be. Too bad it leaves so much out of the data, filling the preconceived ideals of the testers and the ones who want the tests done. Face it, until you've actually done the work, you will continue to be blinded by the ideals of what the masses believe. I presented my "wall of text" to you in hopes you where smart enough to figure it out on your own, as I believed my word alone wasn't enough. Bashing it still, while telling me you only glanced at the titles is fairly shameful. I don't need you to believe me, I've done my part.
  • AeolianHarp
    AeolianHarp Posts: 463 Member
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    Digitalsteel, you're too predictable: "He would then respond by trying to place the burden on you to explain which ones are irrelevant."

    Taubes has already been dismissed. Now, some of us have already scanned through and saw shoddy studies already (Rats), so please pick relevant studies. We don't have to time to sift through all the bull**** you've provided. Posting a study does not make you right. I can post a study about how fruit is delicious but does not make it relevant to my point. Should I expect you to sift through 100 studies on the deliciousness of fruit to see if it's relevant? That's stupid.
  • MikeSEA
    MikeSEA Posts: 1,074 Member
    Options
    If you aren't willing to do the work to get the full spectrum of the information I have, than why are you bothering to argue at all. Honestly, I was hoping you'd be better than that. I read the study that claims insulin is not the evil thing science has made it out to be. Too bad it leaves so much out of the data, filling the preconceived ideals of the testers and the ones who want the tests done. Face it, until you've actually done the work, you will continue to be blinded by the ideals of what the masses believe. I presented my "wall of text" to you in hopes you where smart enough to figure it out on your own, as I believed my word alone wasn't enough. Bashing it still, while telling me you only glanced at the titles is fairly shameful. I don't need you to believe me, I've done my part.

    You're not arguing. You haven't actually presented anything to argue. You've made a claim and given a ton of irrelevant studies to support it? It's an obvious attempt to avoid actually having a conversation about the topic. You keep attempting to claim you've done all this work. It doesn't actually matter. You could have 15 PhDs in related disciplines and until you manage to put together a cogent idea that's supported with specific, related research that hasn't been discredited, it doesn't matter.

    Shameful? That's a sad rhetorical move, don't you think? Please, tell me how that outdated behavioral science research and rat science explains how carbs are evil. Go on :) It's your time to shine. Welcome to academic rigor. If you want to claim expertise it's going to take more than a poorly formatted list of citations that isn't even annotated.
  • kikkipoo
    kikkipoo Posts: 292 Member
    Options
    I follow Elite Nutrition's advice on a healthy balance of 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat. And when I eat high protein I still try to include some carbs with it to assist in absorption. To me keeping the balance is a higher priority than the calorie counting. I had to create my own excel sheet nifty little calculator since the website lacks in reporting and pie charts for your daily intake. But if you're using default you can adjust your goals in my home-->goals and do a manual set to 40/40/20. Then maybe you won't see that red on protein quite so often.
  • sallywilson06
    sallywilson06 Posts: 269 Member
    Options
    I follow Elite Nutrition's advice on a healthy balance of 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat. And when I eat high protein I still try to include some carbs with it to assist in absorption. To me keeping the balance is a higher priority than the calorie counting. I had to create my own excel sheet nifty little calculator since the website lacks in reporting and pie charts for your daily intake. But if you're using default you can adjust your goals in my home-->goals and do a manual set to 40/40/20. Then maybe you won't see that red on protein quite so often.

    Thank you! That's a good tip!
  • AlanAragon
    AlanAragon Posts: 17 Member
    Options
    I follow Elite Nutrition's advice on a healthy balance of 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat. And when I eat high protein I still try to include some carbs with it to assist in absorption. To me keeping the balance is a higher priority than the calorie counting. I had to create my own excel sheet nifty little calculator since the website lacks in reporting and pie charts for your daily intake. But if you're using default you can adjust your goals in my home-->goals and do a manual set to 40/40/20. Then maybe you won't see that red on protein quite so often.
    Percentage-based programming can be problematic. Macronutrient targets should be individualzed based on the needs dictated by LBM (or a surrogate measure such as target BW), while factoring activity level. To illustrate the problem with percentage-based setups, 40%C/40%P/20%F would tend to be overly restrictive in fat under hypocaloric conditions. In hypercaloric conditions, it would tend to be needlessly high in protein.
  • SergeantSunshine_reused
    Options
    I follow Elite Nutrition's advice on a healthy balance of 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat. And when I eat high protein I still try to include some carbs with it to assist in absorption. To me keeping the balance is a higher priority than the calorie counting. I had to create my own excel sheet nifty little calculator since the website lacks in reporting and pie charts for your daily intake. But if you're using default you can adjust your goals in my home-->goals and do a manual set to 40/40/20. Then maybe you won't see that red on protein quite so often.
    Percentage-based programming can be problematic. Macronutrient targets should be individualzed based on the needs dictated by LBM (or a surrogate measure such as target BW), while factoring activity level. To illustrate the problem with percentage-based setups, 40%C/40%P/20%F would tend to be overly restrictive in fat under hypocaloric conditions. In hypercaloric conditions, it would tend to be needlessly high in protein.

    Def agree with this. I go by 1g per lb of body weight, 0.3 X body weight is minimum for fat. and the rest are carbs :D At least for now

    I started quite the debate :O
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