Is it really true that you can't gain muscle on a deficit ?

Secret_Agent_007
Secret_Agent_007 Posts: 1,082
edited October 4 in Health and Weight Loss
More specifically, me?

I'm only 5'7" tall and 205lbs currently. That leads me to believe I'm still about 50lbs over weight.

From what I read, increasing muscle mass is more benefitial to weight loss than pure cardio due to muscle needing calories to exist basically.

If you can't gain muscle on a deficit and gaining muscle is the most effective to long term weight loss, then why live in the deficit in the first place?

Please excuse the dumb question but this all seems contradictory and I just wanna be winning.
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Replies

  • mrmanmeat
    mrmanmeat Posts: 1,968 Member
    More specifically, me?

    I'm only 5'7" tall and 205lbs currently. That leads me to believe I'm still about 50lbs over weight.

    From what I read, increasing muscle mass is more benefitial to weight loss than pure cardio due to muscle needing calories to exist basically.

    If you can't gain muscle on a deficit and gaining muscle is the most effective to long term weight loss, then why live in the deficit in the first place?

    Please excuse the dumb question but this all seems contradictory and I just wanna be winning.

    by deficit you mean the lower cals per day mfp gives you?

    If that's the case, you certainly can gain muscle while doing so. I have put on a lot of muscle, especially in my arms/back - in the last 7 months while doing both cardio & lifting, and I've only been "over" my calorie goal maybe 4 times?
  • engineman312
    engineman312 Posts: 3,450 Member
    i'm on a deficit, and losing weight and building muscle. i consume a lot more protein then i used to, and its working. i probably would lose more weight if i was just doing cardio and not re-eat m exercise calories, but i'm doing this to become more athletic, not just skinny for the sake of being skinny.
  • LorinaLynn
    LorinaLynn Posts: 13,247 Member
    You probably already have a decent amount of muscle mass, just from carrying extra weight. Eat at a deficit to lose the excess fat, and exercise to retain that muscle.

    I've technically lost some lean muscle mass while losing weight, but my muscles are more defined than ever before in my legs, arms, abs and back.
  • babyblake11
    babyblake11 Posts: 1,107 Member
    you can either decide to go on a calorie surplus and build muscle (which is very hard) then go on a cut (defecit) and burn the fat.
    or you can just go on a defecit now, lose the weight then build the muscle afterwards. either way, to lose the weight you have to go on a defecit.
  • mrmanmeat
    mrmanmeat Posts: 1,968 Member
    i'm on a deficit, and losing weight and building muscle. i consume a lot more protein then i used to, and its working. i probably would lose more weight if i was just doing cardio and not re-eat m exercise calories, but i'm doing this to become more athletic, not just skinny for the sake of being skinny.

    I lose more weight eating back my cals. I am going to switch it up for a week or two I think and not eat back ALL of them, which can be a lot when I ride the bike 15-30 miles a few times a week and run. But I'm going to change it up for a week.

    I also eat a lot of protein, never below 100g a day.
  • I dont think that is right. I believe that you can it will just be a slower process....
  • mrmanmeat
    mrmanmeat Posts: 1,968 Member
    you can either decide to go on a calorie surplus and build muscle (which is very hard) then go on a cut (defecit) and burn the fat.
    or you can just go on a defecit now, lose the weight then build the muscle afterwards. either way, to lose the weight you have to go on a defecit.

    I do not agree.
  • babyblake11
    babyblake11 Posts: 1,107 Member
    More specifically, me?

    I'm only 5'7" tall and 205lbs currently. That leads me to believe I'm still about 50lbs over weight.

    From what I read, increasing muscle mass is more benefitial to weight loss than pure cardio due to muscle needing calories to exist basically.

    If you can't gain muscle on a deficit and gaining muscle is the most effective to long term weight loss, then why live in the deficit in the first place?

    Please excuse the dumb question but this all seems contradictory and I just wanna be winning.

    by deficit you mean the lower cals per day mfp gives you?

    If that's the case, you certainly can gain muscle while doing so. I have put on a lot of muscle, especially in my arms/back - in the last 7 months while doing both cardio & lifting, and I've only been "over" my calorie goal maybe 4 times?

    do you have proof of this? couls it not just be the illusion of getting fit and toned? my muscles look bigger, but they have just come out due to the fat being burnt away and lifting weights.
  • engineman312
    engineman312 Posts: 3,450 Member
    you can either decide to go on a calorie surplus and build muscle (which is very hard) then go on a cut (defecit) and burn the fat.
    or you can just go on a defecit now, lose the weight then build the muscle afterwards. either way, to lose the weight you have to go on a defecit.

    I do not agree.

    please, could you post your thoughts on why you do not agree, and post what you think can be done so the OP can achieve their goals?
  • babyblake11
    babyblake11 Posts: 1,107 Member
    alright just shh people , youre just going to argue! this is my opinion, im not going to change my mind. it is extremely difficult to build on a defecit, but not completely impossible but i doubt you could do it by accident.
  • AdAstra47
    AdAstra47 Posts: 823 Member
    Nope.
    According to my doctor, last time I went in I had lost over 45 lb in fat & water, and gained over 7 lb of muscle. So, yes, it's possible. Just make sure to eat plenty of protein, 'cause that's what builds your muscle.
    First, you should cut down on carbs. This will encourage your body to burn fat for energy instead. Whether this means going strictly "low-carb" or not just depends on your own particular metabolism; but reducing carbs at least a little bit is almost always helpful.
    The danger when losing weight is that the chemical reaction that burns fatty acids in your body also requires amino acids (protein). So in order to burn fat, your body also has to burn protein. If you don't eat enough protein, your body will harvest it from your muscles and you'll end up losing muscle mass too.
    So you need to eat enough protein to 1. help you burn fat, and 2. help you build muscle. That's a lot of protein. I try to eat 300g per day. But obviously it's working!

    Good luck to you!
  • babyblake11
    babyblake11 Posts: 1,107 Member
    Nope.
    According to my doctor, last time I went in I had lost over 45 lb in fat & water, and gained over 7 lb of muscle. So, yes, it's possible. Just make sure to eat plenty of protein, 'cause that's what builds your muscle.
    First, you should cut down on carbs. This will encourage your body to burn fat for energy instead. Whether this means going strictly "low-carb" or not just depends on your own particular metabolism; but reducing carbs at least a little bit is almost always helpful.
    The danger when losing weight is that the chemical reaction that burns fatty acids in your body also requires amino acids (protein). So in order to burn fat, your body also has to burn protein. If you don't eat enough protein, your body will harvest it from your muscles and you'll end up losing muscle mass too.
    So you need to eat enough protein to 1. help you burn fat, and 2. help you build muscle. That's a lot of protein. I try to eat 300g per day. But obviously it's working!

    Good luck to you!

    please dont encourage low carb to someone to doesnt need it.
    it is unnecessary depending on the person, and you do not know this persons body and how they react to carbs.
    i eat 55% carbs and i have had NO trouble losing weight, burning fat and getting fit. everybody is different.
  • AdAstra47
    AdAstra47 Posts: 823 Member
    i'm on a deficit, and losing weight and building muscle. i consume a lot more protein then i used to, and its working. i probably would lose more weight if i was just doing cardio and not re-eat m exercise calories, but i'm doing this to become more athletic, not just skinny for the sake of being skinny.

    Yes. This.

    Despite what MFP tries to tell you, it is NOT really possible to get more than a very vague estimate of your real BMR, unless you have a doctor do a series of metabolism tests. Lots of different factors can affect how efficiently your metabolism processes different types of calories, so even determining whether or not you're REALLY at a deficit is very problematic.

    Again, make sure you get plenty of protein, but beyond that, just listen to your body. If you're tired all the time, eat more, adjust your calorie limit higher. If you're not losing weight, try cutting out more carbs & sugars or switching up your exercise routine. Everyone's body is different, you just have to figure out what works for you. But it is definitely possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
  • Rae6503
    Rae6503 Posts: 6,294 Member
    Everything I've read says that no, you can't gain muscle mass while on a deficit. Your body is not getting enough energy to live, therefor it has to pull energy from it's stores (usually fat, but sometimes it'll take muscle as well). These stores are precious and important. It doesn't like to use them. It certainly isn't going to use them to build muscle tissue.

    But you can strengthen, tone, and reveal (through fat loss) the muscle you already have. Further more exercise, weight lifting, and protein intake help to preserve your muscle as much as possible forcing the body to take the energy mainly from the fat stores.
  • AdAstra47
    AdAstra47 Posts: 823 Member
    please dont encourage low carb to someone to doesnt need it.
    it is unnecessary depending on the person, and you do not know this persons body and how they react to carbs.
    i eat 55% carbs and i have had NO trouble losing weight, burning fat and getting fit. everybody is different.

    Please read more carefully. I didn't tell anyone to go low-carb. I said that lowering your carbs will force your body to burn fat for energy instead. Which is true. I didn't try to give a recommendation about the proper level, in fact I specifically said that everyone has to figure out what works for them. If you've figured out what works for you, I'm happy for you. But the OP was asking whether it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat, and I was explaining how I had done it, and going low-carb, for me, is a big part of that.
  • Can everyone see what I've entered this week for diet?

    I do really well on tuna as I find it sustains me better than most things. I also do really well on that 1 point weight watchers chilli recipe for the same reasons. I tend to have protien shakes as dinner as I'm always in the gym on my way home from work. Water intake is pretty high even though I don't enter it here.

    Workouts are mostly 20 mins on the treadmill at 6pmh to warm up.
    30 - 40 mins of weight training doing two muscle groups per day.
    I'll superset and work almost continuously to maintain heart rate as best I can
    10 min warm down on the elliptical as a warm down.
    stretch and hit the showers.

    It's killing me that I gained .6lbs
  • joseph9
    joseph9 Posts: 328 Member
    Most studies show that it's very difficult to add net lean mass. In other words, you can develop the muscle groups you're working out, but you may end up losing some lean mass someplace else, now that you don't need as much strength to stand up, climb stairs, breath, etc. Some qualifiers:

    1) The studies are for groups, not individuals. It's certainly possible that any one person will be an outlier, and maybe it's you!

    2) As you lose fat, you will seem more muscular, because you can see you muscles better.

    3) Some groups do show muscle gain while in calorie deficit. IIRC, they're:

    3.1) People who have never worked out.

    3.2) Elite athletes on serious training programs

    3.3) Some other group I can't remember.

    That said, if you want to know how to add muscle, ask the professional bodybuilders and weight lifters. They'll tell you that for major muscle gains, you need a calorie surplus.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
    Lyle McDonald has some good information on this process.

    I don't want to quote him or try to explain the science behind it because I've only read it once, but my impression/understanding tells me anecdotally that:

    People who are returning to lifting after a long layoff (once in great shape, got out of shape), and people who are very new (especially overweight people) may make small lean mass gains on a cut. EDIT: SMALL.

    I think that with inexperienced lifters, these gains are small and often over-stated, since they're basically cutting and losing fat. Strength goes up (new to lifting), fat goes down = they look more muscular.

    The above is opinion, however Lyle has more direct info to offer for those that are curious.

    EDIT: At a certain point, that I couldn't begin to define/label, it would strategically be much better to eat at a surplus if you're looking for muscle mass.
  • bbabs99
    bbabs99 Posts: 51
    Nope.
    According to my doctor, last time I went in I had lost over 45 lb in fat & water, and gained over 7 lb of muscle. So, yes, it's possible. Just make sure to eat plenty of protein, 'cause that's what builds your muscle.
    First, you should cut down on carbs. This will encourage your body to burn fat for energy instead. Whether this means going strictly "low-carb" or not just depends on your own particular metabolism; but reducing carbs at least a little bit is almost always helpful.
    The danger when losing weight is that the chemical reaction that burns fatty acids in your body also requires amino acids (protein). So in order to burn fat, your body also has to burn protein. If you don't eat enough protein, your body will harvest it from your muscles and you'll end up losing muscle mass too.
    So you need to eat enough protein to 1. help you burn fat, and 2. help you build muscle. That's a lot of protein. I try to eat 300g per day. But obviously it's working!

    Good luck to you!

    please dont encourage low carb to someone to doesnt need it.
    it is unnecessary depending on the person, and you do not know this persons body and how they react to carbs.
    i eat 55% carbs and i have had NO trouble losing weight, burning fat and getting fit. everybody is different.

    Cutting Carbs isn't the actual answer. Eating more protein is, and switching up carbs for protein is a good way to do that.
  • babyblake11
    babyblake11 Posts: 1,107 Member
    please dont encourage low carb to someone to doesnt need it.
    it is unnecessary depending on the person, and you do not know this persons body and how they react to carbs.
    i eat 55% carbs and i have had NO trouble losing weight, burning fat and getting fit. everybody is different.

    Please read more carefully. I didn't tell anyone to go low-carb. I said that lowering your carbs will force your body to burn fat for energy instead. Which is true. I didn't try to give a recommendation about the proper level, in fact I specifically said that everyone has to figure out what works for them. If you've figured out what works for you, I'm happy for you. But the OP was asking whether it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat, and I was explaining how I had done it, and going low-carb, for me, is a big part of that.

    as i said, it doesnt work like that for all people.
  • Rae6503
    Rae6503 Posts: 6,294 Member
    0.6 pounds is nothing. Probably water weight.
  • bbabs99
    bbabs99 Posts: 51



    From what I read, increasing muscle mass is more benefitial to weight loss than pure cardio due to muscle needing calories to exist basically.

    Part of that isn't necessarily putting on lean muscle. There are arguments (I don't have the studies they're based on at hand, so I'm not going to state anything as a fact) that after strenuous weight training, the metabolism can be heightened for up to, I believe, 39 hours or more. While cardio does spike your metabolism, it's for a much shorter time.
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
    There are 4 ways to build muscle:

    1. You are brand new to weight training or you are returning to weight training after a long break, and you can eat at a deficit and still make VERY small gains but that will "stabilize" so to speak until you start eating a calorie surplus.

    2. You are morbidly obese and you are using your fat stores as fuel/energy (calories) to put on some muscle, although Lyle explains this much better. It's still very minimal gains.

    3. You eat a calorie surplus.

    4. You take steroids.


    /thread
  • AdAstra47
    AdAstra47 Posts: 823 Member
    Everything I've read says that no, you can't gain muscle mass while on a deficit. Your body is not getting enough energy to live, therefor it has to pull energy from it's stores (usually fat, but sometimes it'll take muscle as well). These stores are precious and important. It doesn't like to use them. It certainly isn't going to use them to build muscle tissue.

    Uh, no, it can't use fat to build muscle tissue, because muscle tissue isn't made of fat, it's made of proteins... this is not about thermodynamics (energy in / energy out). That would be nice, but your body isn't a closed system, and not all calories are treated the same way by your body. This is really about biochemistry, so it's much more complicated & messy. But if you give your body the tools it needs, the proper nutrients, that's how you can build your muscles.

    My doctor has a fancy machine that calculates body composition. He tested me back in March (when I began) and every month since. I've consistently lost fat & water weight, and gained about a pound of muscle a month.

    Here are some interesting articles:
    http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/06/02 /calories-incalories-out-science-says-no/
    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/why-we-get-fat/
  • From what I read, increasing muscle mass is more benefitial to weight loss than pure cardio due to muscle needing calories to exist basically.

    I think other people have done a good job answering your main question about whether you can add muscle mass while cutting calories, but an important point that hasn't really been touched on is the basic question of whether adding muscle mass will result in significant weight loss through an increased RMR.

    In short, it will not. A pound of fat requires roughly 2kCal per day, while a pound of muscle requires roughly 6 kCal per day. Even if you added 10 pounds of pure muscle (ignoring any fat losses), you'd only be burning 60 calories extra a day.

    Sources: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/16/health/la-he-fitness-muscle-myth-20110516
    http://sweatscience.com/is-strength-training-really-better-than-cardio-for-weight-loss/
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    The point of resistance training in a fat loss routine really isn't about creating a calorie deficit. That's the job of your diet (and cardio if you choose to do it.)

    The point is to retain existing muscle mass (or in some specific cases add to it) help with functional day to day strength, increase bone density, preventing osteoarthritis, inhibiting sarcopenia, helping to reduce day to day injury, helping with balance, elevating mood, improving CV capacity and generally looking good naked when your diet has stripped away excessive levels of body fat.

    If your mindset when incorporating resistance training into your fat loss routine is centred around creating a calorie deficit you probably misunderstand its primary purpose.


  • If your mindset when incorporating resistance training into your fat loss routine is centred around creating a calorie deficit you probably misunderstand its primary purpose.




    That would be why I ask. No one wants to feel like they worked their *kitten* off only to find they didn't achieve the results they were looking for. THAT is what leads to failure and quitting.

    I believe that people want desperately to lose weight FAST so as to beat their loss of willpower to the finish line. Yes, I know there's no finish line if you actually intend to get / stay healthy but IMHO your willpower DOES have a finish line. And one must achieve results worth while discussing BEFORE the will to do the work dies.

    Maintaining on less will should be easier.
  • brucedelaney
    brucedelaney Posts: 433 Member
    Everything I've read says that no, you can't gain muscle mass while on a deficit. Your body is not getting enough energy to live, therefor it has to pull energy from it's stores (usually fat, but sometimes it'll take muscle as well). These stores are precious and important. It doesn't like to use them. It certainly isn't going to use them to build muscle tissue.

    Uh, no, it can't use fat to build muscle tissue, because muscle tissue isn't made of fat, it's made of proteins... this is not about thermodynamics (energy in / energy out). That would be nice, but your body isn't a closed system, and not all calories are treated the same way by your body. This is really about biochemistry, so it's much more complicated & messy. But if you give your body the tools it needs, the proper nutrients, that's how you can build your muscles.

    My doctor has a fancy machine that calculates body composition. He tested me back in March (when I began) and every month since. I've consistently lost fat & water weight, and gained about a pound of muscle a month.

    Here are some interesting articles:
    http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/06/02 /calories-incalories-out-science-says-no/
    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/why-we-get-fat/

    He didn't say use fat to build muscle directly. He said use the fat as the energy to build the muscle. Which we all know occurs when we're in a caloric deficit.
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member

    That would be why I ask. No one wants to feel like they worked their *kitten* off only to find they didn't achieve the results they were looking for. THAT is what leads to failure and quitting.

    I believe that people want desperately to lose weight FAST so as to beat their loss of willpower to the finish line. Yes, I know there's no finish line if you actually intend to get / stay healthy but IMHO your willpower DOES have a finish line. And one must achieve results worth while discussing BEFORE the will to do the work dies.

    Maintaining on less will should be easier.

    Yes, I agree. You raise an important and good point about the importance of goals and how your training and diet must match that in order to achieve them.

    Most people say their goal is WEIGHT loss when in reality it is FAT loss. To reach a goal efficiently your training and diet must match it and be tailored to it accordingly. If a person switches their focus to fat loss and functional strength a lot of information professionals provide (suitable calorie deficits, adequate rest and recovery, long term thinking, resistance training) makes far more sense. I
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    I believe that people want desperately to lose weight FAST so as to beat their loss of willpower to the finish line. Yes, I know there's no finish line if you actually intend to get / stay healthy but IMHO your willpower DOES have a finish line. And one must achieve results worth while discussing BEFORE the will to do the work dies.

    Very well said.

    I think this ties in to people being well educated/informed and having appropriate expectations. Losing weight is not the same as getting healthy, and the scale is not the determining factor in success.

    As to your original question... as others have said, you can make very minor gains while on a deficit (this makes some assumptions and is dependent on the size of that deficit, body type, etc).
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