Why I'm not for cardio and resistance concurrently
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Bump.
Cool topic! Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to post and to explain :happy:0 -
I am fairly new to understanding and intergrating the physiologic / metabolic soup that you talk about. So forgive my naive approach thus far and the fairly simple questions that I ask.
First, does your supposition that doing both exercises in the same setting (less than 8 hours apart) assume that one wants to "bulk up" by weight training? I personally started lifting a month ago and have used it more for tone and cardio than to add mass. I don't see any problem with adding it to the elliptical or swim. In fact, those exercises warm the muscles up and get me going. If I do the elliptical I do arm work with weights. I make sure to eat a good meal mixture of complex and some simple carbs and protein at least 2 hours prior to my extended workout replentishing stores.
To the best of my knowledge, in weekend warriors like me (not really, I work out 5 days a week) I understand our glycogen stores in the liver to be about 100 grams. We use about 1 gram a minute and therefore have about 90 minutes before we exhaust our liver stores and start grabbing glycogen from muscle (stores there about 280 grams in non-elite atheletes). My intense work-outs (weights cardio and swim/elliptical cardio) are about 45 min for each exercise (ie 90 minutes total). I then replace protein within 30 minutes of completing the exercise with a mixture of carbs/protein in liquid form (easiest when at the gym and not headed home to eat right away). Skipping the arguement over whether a mixture of complex proteins/carbs mixed with some simple fast absorbing is best in various ratios....for the non-elite athelete...one would think this is probably enough. If I were training for the Olympics and in that kind of shape, the story might be different...and the whole story does change depending on the type of exercise (swim, row, run) and effort etc. Elite atheletes actually reportedly carry less stores in the liver and run around with an average of 55 grams in the liver at baseline (not the 100 grams in my liver). By carb loading they can increase muscle stores up to 800 grams (mine are probably stuck at 280). So for them, they can store even more and go harder longer. All this is to say that I do believe while the arguement of not combining exercises of resistance and cardio on the same day apply to some, it probably doesn't apply to all. Just depends on what you want out of it and how long you do it and how hard you are doing it. Yes? or am I down a creek without a paddle?
Lastly, why is it that we say cardio exercises don't build muscle? or need a positive testosterone balance to improve muscle synthesis and slow breakdown? Bikers have big quads and hamstrings. Aren't they building muscle too?
Just asking....as I said....this is all new to me...I've been reading for a week or two and realize I know enough to be dangerous. So educate and convince me.
All good questions tex, I'll see if I can respond in kind.
to your first question, it does assume you are looking to gain or maintain muscle mass by targeting muscles for specific weight training. I.E. testosterone release happens only in certain conditions (over and above the normal levels in the body that is), and moderate cardio, or even most HIIT training routines don't trigger high releases of testosterone, mainly because the body will only release hormones when the muscles "request" the need for more power. It's actually a complex set of hormonal releases based on charge balance and chemical homeostasis. I.E. glycogen depletion doesn't cause the testosterone trigger to happen, only using muscles to their maximal effort for an extended period will do this. As the body perceives failure because of mechanical work will it release testosterone, not because of energy depletion.
your understanding of localized and liver glycogen stores is actually very close to right on, the only thing you should be aware of is that muscle glycogen is not mobile, in other words the 250 to 350 grams in most adult males at the muscle site is locked at the muscle site, thus is not available to other muscles. Only the liver glycogen will be released to replenish muscle use, and the liver will always hold some glycogen in reserve for the brain if it can, it's almost impossible to completely deplete the liver of glycogen, thus about 80 grams can be released, and that takes 5 to 15 minutes to replenish a fully depleted muscle, that's why when you're looking for hypertrophy, your rest times between sets should be about 3 to 5 minutes, we're looking for mechanical work failure, not glycogen depletion.
to your last question about whether cardio builds muscle. It just doesn't, there's hundreds of studies documenting this, I'm not going to go listing them, but they're easy to find if you go to ajcn.org and search for cardio and muscle mass gains. But to be more to the point, and easier to understand, cardio works below the aerobic threshold, never triggering the response needed to build new muscle mass, unless the person never uses or uses very infrequently, the muscles being used for cardio, the body won't trigger mass (power) gains. Remember, the body is an efficiency engine, it will only add extra muscle when it perceives a need. If the need (like when doing cardio) is for better oxygen efficiency and OSAT (oxygen saturation in the blood) then the body will increase lung capacity, and mitochondrial counts to account for this, the one exception to this is the heart, and smooth muscles around the arterial systems which can grow stronger with cardio. But I'm sure we've all heard the stories of highly trained athletes that have extremely low resting heart rates, it's because their bodies are both adapted to better extract oxygen out of the blood, and their hearts are stronger, pumping more blood volume during each stroke (thus needing less beats to deliver the same amount of oxygen).
My point is basically this:
It isn't an all or nothing game, you can do both, and you'll probably return about 70% to 80% of the results that you would from each if compared to if you did them separately. Which, for many people is fine. It does make it easier if you're in a time crunch.
BUT
A lot of people ask me whether you should do both, 1 first, or the other first. And I always give them the answer of: "if time is an issue, then do both, but don't expect optimal results from either". And I say that simply because when you get right down to it, if you're training to gain strength, then your body needs fuel to recover, if you do that AND do cardio, you're depleting your energy levels, muscle repair waits for nobody, and if you have no energy to fuel your recovering body, then the protein and amino acids that would normally go towards building or repairing muscle tissue will instead be used to supplement energy recovery as the body deems that more vital to short term survival than building new muscle later (I.E. run away from the saber toothed cat, THEN worry about being strong enough to kill it next time)
The study I noted in my original quote wasn't elite athletes, they were adult males that were in good shape, but not elite, the process is similar for everyone. It's as much about balance as it is about anything. If you're looking for specific gains (I.E. strength and size gains, then the focus should be on hypertrophy and power, if your looking for overall endurance gains then the focus should be on sub-maximal cardiovascular work, if your focus is to gain endurance at one specific muscle site then the focus should be on HIIT training with specificity.
You mentioned cyclists, and that's true, but what we don't see is that the off season training regimen of most professional athletes has just as many strength days as it does specific sport training days. I.E. bicyclists do squats on some days, but they very rarely will do squats immediately followed by a long cardio session, the may do it in the same day, but always separated by hours and a re-feeding to replenish. The other thing to remember about professionals is that their bodies are trained to a point where they are supremely efficient at recovery, so what may take you and I 8 hours may only take them 3 or 4, that's more individual, but it's still a factor.
hope this helps clear some stuff up.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
Fascinating info here! I love reading this kind of stuff because it really does cement things as far as WHY we do the things we're told to do in these books, etc.0 -
to your last question about whether cardio builds muscle. It just doesn't, there's hundreds of studies documenting this, I'm not going to go listing them, but they're easy to find if you go to ajcn.org and search for cardio and muscle mass gains.
You mentioned cyclists, and that's true, but what we don't see is that the off season training regimen of most professional athletes has just as many strength days as it does specific sport training days. I.E. bicyclists do squats on some days, but they very rarely will do squats immediately followed by a long cardio session, the may do it in the same day, but always separated by hours and a re-feeding to replenish.
Ok you are far more knowledgeable than I on this topic, and I have been reading and learning much on this thread. But this part just made me sit up and say "whoa!" There are hundreds of thousands of runners and cyclists out there who never do any strength training yet have awesome muscular legs. I was an example of that to some degree, though I have started strength training in recent years. If any study says that this can't be done I'd just pitch it in the trash, I don't care what authority wrote it; it is clearly incorrect. Maybe I am misreading you here; I hope so. But go to any local running or cycling race and you will find hundreds of ordinary folk there who don't do squats or any strength training at all yet have highly developed muscular legs. What's up with that?
Not sure why my writing shows up blue like a quote, I guess I did something wrong in editing the quote.0 -
to your last question about whether cardio builds muscle. It just doesn't, there's hundreds of studies documenting this, I'm not going to go listing them, but they're easy to find if you go to ajcn.org and search for cardio and muscle mass gains.
You mentioned cyclists, and that's true, but what we don't see is that the off season training regimen of most professional athletes has just as many strength days as it does specific sport training days. I.E. bicyclists do squats on some days, but they very rarely will do squats immediately followed by a long cardio session, the may do it in the same day, but always separated by hours and a re-feeding to replenish.
Ok you are far more knowledgeable than I on this topic, and I have been reading and learning much on this thread. But this part just made me sit up and say "whoa!" There are hundreds of thousands of runners and cyclists out there who never do any strength training yet have awesome muscular legs. I was an example of that to some degree, though I have started strength training in recent years. If any study says that this can't be done I'd just pitch it in the trash, I don't care what authority wrote it; it is clearly incorrect. Maybe I am misreading you here; I hope so. But go to any local running or cycling race and you will find hundreds of ordinary folk there who don't do squats or any strength training at all yet have highly developed muscular legs. What's up with that?
Not sure why my writing shows up blue like a quote, I guess I did something wrong in editing the quote.
your reply was blue because you had an extra open quote at the beginning of your reply.
to answer your response, I never said a cyclist can't have strong, muscular legs, I said that professional cyclists use weight training in order to increase their leg power, and it's true. Do a google search of cycling off season workouts, you'll notice many use weight training routines in order to increase leg power. but very few do much more than maintenance in season, because
it's counter productive to do both strength and power increases, and makes it more difficult to prepare for races. I think some people are taking bits and pieces of the study and this topic, you have to read the whole thing, all the replies as well, yes it's a lot of reading, but if you're interested enough to reply, you must read the whole thing, we went over a lot of stuff in here, and it all ties together.0 -
to your last question about whether cardio builds muscle. It just doesn't, there's hundreds of studies documenting this, I'm not going to go listing them, but they're easy to find if you go to ajcn.org and search for cardio and muscle mass gains.
You mentioned cyclists, and that's true, but what we don't see is that the off season training regimen of most professional athletes has just as many strength days as it does specific sport training days. I.E. bicyclists do squats on some days, but they very rarely will do squats immediately followed by a long cardio session, the may do it in the same day, but always separated by hours and a re-feeding to replenish.
Ok you are far more knowledgeable than I on this topic, and I have been reading and learning much on this thread. But this part just made me sit up and say "whoa!" There are hundreds of thousands of runners and cyclists out there who never do any strength training yet have awesome muscular legs. I was an example of that to some degree, though I have started strength training in recent years. If any study says that this can't be done I'd just pitch it in the trash, I don't care what authority wrote it; it is clearly incorrect. Maybe I am misreading you here; I hope so. But go to any local running or cycling race and you will find hundreds of ordinary folk there who don't do squats or any strength training at all yet have highly developed muscular legs. What's up with that?
Not sure why my writing shows up blue like a quote, I guess I did something wrong in editing the quote.
your reply was blue because you had an extra open quote at the beginning of your reply.
to answer your response, I never said a cyclist can't have strong, muscular legs, I said that professional cyclists use weight training in order to increase their leg power, and it's true. Do a google search of cycling off season workouts, you'll notice many use weight training routines in order to increase leg power. but very few do much more than maintenance in season, because
it's counter productive to do both strength and power increases, and makes it more difficult to prepare for races. I think some people are taking bits and pieces of the study and this topic, you have to read the whole thing, all the replies as well, yes it's a lot of reading, but if you're interested enough to reply, you must read the whole thing, we went over a lot of stuff in here, and it all ties together.
Yes, I have been a cyclist since the early eighties and I'm quite familiar with pro cyclists training routines. However, the point I disagree on is saying that one cannot build muscle through cardio. So ignore the pro cyclists training or whatever and just look at the thousands of runners and cyclists that do no strength training yet build very muscular legs. I can accept the point that one could build muscle more effectively by separating cardio and strength training, I just can't accept that cardio cannot build muscle as above when you say it just doesn't. Ok, maybe you were just making a broad generalization to make a point, but as a guy that does primarily cardio I read a lot of stuff from the lifting community about cardio that is just not true and it riles me up a little. No offense intended towards you, I do appreciate all that you have written. But clearly one can build muscle while doing cardio - maybe not the best way, but it can be done. I don't mean to argue so I'll bow out after this post; I just want to point out that that cardio can build muscle.0 -
Yes, I have been a cyclist since the early eighties and I'm quite familiar with pro cyclists training routines. However, the point I disagree on is saying that one cannot build muscle through cardio. So ignore the pro cyclists training or whatever and just look at the thousands of runners and cyclists that do no strength training yet build very muscular legs. I can accept the point that one could build muscle more effectively by separating cardio and strength training, I just can't accept that cardio cannot build muscle as above when you say it just doesn't. Ok, maybe you were just making a broad generalization to make a point, but as a guy that does primarily cardio I read a lot of stuff from the lifting community about cardio that is just not true and it riles me up a little. No offense intended towards you, I do appreciate all that you have written. But clearly one can build muscle while doing cardio - maybe not the best way, but it can be done. I don't mean to argue so I'll bow out after this post; I just want to point out that that cardio can build muscle.
the science, and my experience is very very clear, you don't build new mass with cardio. You can do minor modifications with activating dormant muscle fiber, and you can build muscle with sprint training (which is not cardio, it's anaerobic and closer to HIIT than cardio), but there's plenty of science out there that supports it, in fact, if you show me just one single research study who's conclusions say that cardiovascular exercise increases voluntary muscle mass (I.E. not the heart muscle or other involuntary muscles associated with cardiopulmonary systems) and I'll read it and concede you the point (if it's accurate).
Heck, tell ya what, you find a trainer who works with professional runners or cyclists and get a quote from one of them that says that straight cardio increases muscle mass and I'll consider it. As a trainer, and someone who's been in high level sports my whole life, I've never once heard anyone say that cardio builds muscle mass, not once. You'd be the first.0 -
Didn't bother quoting the previous discussion since the quotes get so long...
But, are you really saying that no runner or cyclist builds leg muscle by cardio alone? They only build leg muscle by doing strength training? That is so clearly wrong and easily disproven that I assume we must be missing each others point somehow. My statement is straightforward. Runners and cyclists build leg muscle by doing nothing but cardio. There are millions of examples of this across the country and globe. I was always the guy with the skinny legs until I started cycling in 1983 or so. Then my legs got big, muscular, and strong. I never did any strength training until 2009, but that didn't stop me from building strong legs. As I said before, go to any local running or cycling race and check with the contestants (not the elites, the john and jane does.) You will find muscular legs on people who have never done any strength training. It is a long widespread running joke about the marathoners with muscular legs and no upper body. My circle of friends is made up of long distance runners and cyclists who fit this mold. So yeah, one can easily build muscle doing cardio alone, but it will be leg muscle. I don't even see how this can be argued with; it is all around us daily. Don't interview trainers, go see for yourself at the races. Most of the cardio types in my age bracket (I'm 59) have never done strength training, it just wasn't part of the running craze that began in the seventies. So I see it daily and never thought anything of it until I read this thread. Again, I grant you your orignal point, muscle building is more effective when strength training is separarted from cardio. But there is no question that cardio can build muscle, millions of folks do it.
PS: I'm not combative and don't want to hijack your thread so I'm not going to post anymore. Feel free to PM me if you like, I'm open to discussion, I just don't know that I can add anything here. Thanks for all of your research and advice.0 -
I agree, but studies aside, it makes sense to me that if you are working hard enough at one, you should not have any energy for the other.
I keep seeing diaries where someone will do 45 minutes of strength followed by an hour of cardio. Neither is being done effectively. 45 mins of strength training should leave someone wanting to take a nap, not take a zumba class.
I've busted my *kitten* doing circut training then somehow found the energy to do a little bit of cardio. But only way I can do it is a 15 minute warm up beforehand (building up to a fairly good intensity), 30-45 minutes of hard circuit training, then 15 minutes of high intensity cardio....sometimes I can only manage low intensity. It's still doing the job.0 -
Thank you for the technical reasons. Steve Turano on you tube says to do them separately and I listened to that and then suddenly I started to get stronger and stronger with the weights. Yay, only problem is I do very little cardio at all. It is so unpleasant. I don't mind the weights even when it's hard.0
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I let my body tell me if I'm in any kind of shape to do ONE of those things AFTER the other. After one type of exercise,, if I've done it properly, I'm too maxed out physically to do the other, and my body usually will let me know it's a NO GO.
If I do cardio, there's usually only time and energy for some ab work. Likewise, if I'm going to do weight training, I will only warm up with about 5-10 minutes of cardio, and my weight training is usually the UPPER body on those days.0 -
Here's a question for you. What about someone like me, who has a hormone disorder (PCOS) and has elevated testosterone levels to begin with? I do a mix of both two days per week, and I know for a fact that I've built plenty of muscle because caliper measurements indicate that I have. Not to mention, I have been able to increase resistance on my strength training several times over (5-20lb increases each time, depending on the exercise) and there is visible improvement in muscle definition...particularly in my arms and legs. I know you said your OP was specifically referring to "short" sets of heavy weight, but even though I do 2 sets of 15, I don't exactly lift "light" either. I used to do strength training three days a week, but I just started training for a 5K I'm doing in May, so I wanted to start doing more cardio for a while. This is my routine on days that I do strength training (Tuesdays, Thursdays), and it seems to be working fine for me:
10min warm up on eliptical
Leg Press=180lbs
Leg Extension=50lbs
Leg Curl=50lbs
Hip Adductor=80lbs
Hip Abductor=80lbs
10 minutes on Wave Glider (similar to stair climber, but side to side skating motion instead of straight up and down)
Lower Back Extension=75lbs
Chest Press=60lbs
Shoulder Press=35lbs
Bicep Curl=40lbs
Tricep Extension=55lbs
15 minutes on eliptical
P.S. I do 2 sets of 15 reps for each.0 -
Saving for later. Great thread!0
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Didn't bother quoting the previous discussion since the quotes get so long...
But, are you really saying that no runner or cyclist builds leg muscle by cardio alone? They only build leg muscle by doing strength training? That is so clearly wrong and easily disproven that I assume we must be missing each others point somehow. My statement is straightforward. Runners and cyclists build leg muscle by doing nothing but cardio. There are millions of examples of this across the country and globe. I was always the guy with the skinny legs until I started cycling in 1983 or so. Then my legs got big, muscular, and strong. I never did any strength training until 2009, but that didn't stop me from building strong legs. As I said before, go to any local running or cycling race and check with the contestants (not the elites, the john and jane does.) You will find muscular legs on people who have never done any strength training. It is a long widespread running joke about the marathoners with muscular legs and no upper body. My circle of friends is made up of long distance runners and cyclists who fit this mold. So yeah, one can easily build muscle doing cardio alone, but it will be leg muscle. I don't even see how this can be argued with; it is all around us daily. Don't interview trainers, go see for yourself at the races. Most of the cardio types in my age bracket (I'm 59) have never done strength training, it just wasn't part of the running craze that began in the seventies. So I see it daily and never thought anything of it until I read this thread. Again, I grant you your orignal point, muscle building is more effective when strength training is separarted from cardio. But there is no question that cardio can build muscle, millions of folks do it.
PS: I'm not combative and don't want to hijack your thread so I'm not going to post anymore. Feel free to PM me if you like, I'm open to discussion, I just don't know that I can add anything here. Thanks for all of your research and advice.
I train amature racers, I train lots of athletes that perform in endurance sports, I run in moderate races all the time, I'm a 5Ker by trade, I run the occasional 10 K as well. I very rarely come across endurance runners who are at all serious that have "muscular legs", are they fit? are their leg muscles well defined? Yes to both, but well defined, well tuned legs do not mean "muscular in the classical weight training sense. Can you activate dormant muscle fibers, giving legs a more "cut" and defined look? Yes, but you won't grow them, not by doing cardio, sorry, you can't convince me of that. It's just not true. I go to road races all the time, and no, I don't see many cyclists that have bulky big legs regularly. Sorry, I just don't, they may be fit, and well defined, but not proportionally large. Maybe my definition of large is different than yours, but I don't define strong and large as the same thing.
I think you may be confusing sprint training with endurance.0 -
Interesting article.
Personally though I think it all just depends on your goals, your schedule and your preferences. Each person has to experiment with workouts/types/times and see what works best for them...
I don't think the two necessarily need to be seperated...
Cardio consists of any exercise that gets your heart rate up... Since I think jumping on a treadmill or elliptical can be mind-numbing and boring what I do is incorporate a lot of weighted cardio & calisthenics into my circuit and interval training. This way you are getting your heart rate up AND builing both strength and muscle endurance. This works for me, but not everyone....
I completely agree! I love to hear all the latest research, and new findings, etc, but ultimately, everyone has to do what is feasible for them. Especially when it comes to less experienced individuals... if they took all that to heart, they would have one more excuse not to work out!
I also do a lot of plyometric circuit training, so it is impossible for me to separate my cardio.0 -
-This only refers to heavy weight training, I.E. hypertrophy or failure training for mass building, not high rep, low weight workouts (I.E. 15 to 30 reps or more per set)
Wish I had read this first.
Thanks for pointing this out, as I missed it the first read through as well. I was starting to worry about my BodyPump/Sh'Bam combo nights (yeah, I Sh'Bam, what of it
) 0 -
So if I read this right, and if this is germans just say so.. But unless I'm looking to add a ton of mass, I need to lift to failure on one day focusing on certain muscles. Let those muscles rest at least 8 hours and then do cardio. Wait at least 8 hours and hit another target group. Lather, rinse, repeat.
But how does it work in the, I'm 90+ pounds overweight?0 -
bump0
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So if I read this right, and if this is germans just say so.. But unless I'm looking to add a ton of mass, I need to lift to failure on one day focusing on certain muscles. Let those muscles rest at least 8 hours and then do cardio. Wait at least 8 hours and hit another target group. Lather, rinse, repeat.
But how does it work in the, I'm 90+ pounds overweight?
it doesnt matter to those wanting to lose a lot of weight. The original article was aimed at those wanting to gain muscle mass. You dont need to worry about doing some resistence work and cardio close together.0 -
I have been doing strength training Mond, Wed, Fri for about an hour and a half.
Then on Tues, Thur, Saturday I do an hour cardio alternating between eliptical and treadmill.
This has worked well for me and I have lost 35 pounds as well as gain in muscle tone.
Starting weight 240 - been 5 months doing this routine changing up muscle groups etc.0 -
People are way to gun ho on this site. They drastically cut calories, add in workouts and cardio all at once and wonder why they plateau... I use cardio to break a plateau when i dont want to cut calories any further.
Get a chuckle when i see people, going help! cant lose weight, i eat 1200 calories a day, do cardio 6 days a week and strength train 3 times a week. How are you gonna bust through that? Cant cut calories, cant add more exercise...0
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