sugar toxic

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  • AeolianHarp
    AeolianHarp Posts: 463 Member
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    I have a hard time believing that the average dieter who loses weight and regains it multiple times doesn't understand that they can't just go back to their old eating habits. And from what I've read, leptin levels are more affected by fat stores than by eating carbohydrates, so you can't just arbitrarily raise leptin by increasing carbs, at least not for more than a very short term basis. I don't really believe that willpower can overcome the body's desire to eat, otherwise diet success rates would have better long-term prognosis.

    Physiology has a big factor, I recognize this, but it does not remove culpability like you are suggesting.

    To be honest, I'm too lazy to type out a lot of stuff.

    Why dieting fails (read the first question and answer):
    http://body-improvements.com/2008/10/08/lyle-mcdonald-interview-part-4-why-diets-fail-and-obesity/

    From there, read Lyle McDonald's 6-part leptin series.
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    I have a hard time believing that the average dieter who loses weight and regains it multiple times doesn't understand that they can't just go back to their old eating habits. And from what I've read, leptin levels are more affected by fat stores than by eating carbohydrates, so you can't just arbitrarily raise leptin by increasing carbs, at least not for more than a very short term basis. I don't really believe that willpower can overcome the body's desire to eat, otherwise diet success rates would have better long-term prognosis.

    Physiology has a big factor, I recognize this, but it does not remove culpability like you are suggesting.

    To be honest, I'm too lazy to type out a lot of stuff.

    Why dieting fails (read the first question and answer):
    http://body-improvements.com/2008/10/08/lyle-mcdonald-interview-part-4-why-diets-fail-and-obesity/

    From there, read Lyle McDonald's 6-part leptin series.

    I know, I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff. I have a fundamental difference in philosophy than him. I question his judgement in a lot of ways, because he seems to know science pretty well, but doesn't seem to understand human psychology. The fact that he accuses everyone who disagrees with him as being a religious zealot or someone who is already set in their ways demonstrates this. His mind is not open enough for me to fully accept his viewpoints.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    "Eat less, move more" has been the mainstream approach for decades and it has failed time and time again.

    Eat less, move more works just fine. The problem is, if you look at the data, compared to 40 years ago, Americans are eating MORE and moving LESS. It's really quite simple to figure out why there's an obesity problem, more and more jobs are becoming computer and machine based, people are spending more and more time being sedentary, rather than active, and food in general is much more plentiful, not to mention eating becomes easier when you are less active, as a computer programmer who works from home can eat much more often and end up eating much more than say, a factory worker on an assembly line. And then you take into account that a lot of factory jobs have turned into "push button, watch machine" and it becomes pretty clear why people are growing more and more out of shape, and it has nothing to do with sugar.

    Most professional athletes tend toward lots of carbs and lots of sugar, if it was all sugar's fault, and not calories or activity, then shouldn't all these pro athletes be obese, as well?
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    "Eat less, move more" has been the mainstream approach for decades and it has failed time and time again.

    Eat less, move more works just fine. The problem is, if you look at the data, compared to 40 years ago, Americans are eating MORE and moving LESS. It's really quite simple to figure out why there's an obesity problem, more and more jobs are becoming computer and machine based, people are spending more and more time being sedentary, rather than active, and food in general is much more plentiful, not to mention eating becomes easier when you are less active, as a computer programmer who works from home can eat much more often and end up eating much more than say, a factory worker on an assembly line. And then you take into account that a lot of factory jobs have turned into "push button, watch machine" and it becomes pretty clear why people are growing more and more out of shape, and it has nothing to do with sugar.

    I know I've heard all this before. It doesn't add up. I think we should be a lot fatter than this because this environment has changed quite a bit more than obesity rates have. Plus it doesn't explain the obese cultures that are not like us.
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    Most professional athletes tend toward lots of carbs and lots of sugar, if it was all sugar's fault, and not calories or activity, then shouldn't all these pro athletes be obese, as well?

    Noticed you added this. See this kind of reasoning is why I can't take you seriously. Did it ever occur to you that professional athletes are genetically superior to the rest of us, such that they can handle carbs more effectively than us, which might also explain why they perform better than us at athletics?
  • Phrak
    Phrak Posts: 353 Member
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    Maybe because Lustig is a known fear mongerer?

    Here is the full text of the study they reference in the article

    Consumption of Fructose and High Fructose Corn Syrup Increase Postprandial Triglycerides, LDL-Cholesterol, and Apolipoprotein-B in Young Men and Women. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism August 17, 2011 jc.2011-1251

    http://goo.gl/jfmxn 

    My main takeaway from the study was maybe it's not that great of an idea to consume 25% of your daily cals in HFCS if you're sedentary and eating at maintenance or above. However there is a huge confounder in that in the outpatient phase of the study when they were consuming 25% of their cals in sugar, they ate ad lib, so it's possible they were chowing down on foods with lots of trans fats or stuff like that that could have lead to the elevated blood markers.

    If we look at studies such as this one, which had intake much more controlled, subjects ate 43% of their daily cals in sucrose which is basically the same as HFCS and LDL decreased, however they were also eating in a deficit.

    Metabolic and behavioral effects of a high-sucrose diet during weight loss. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Apr;65(4):908-15.

    www.ajcn.org/content/65/4/908.full.pdf

    Awesome as long as i dont eat more than 220g of HFCS i am safe.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    I'm glad we agree that context and dosage actually matter.

    I've mentioned repeatedly that I agree with the main premise of Paleo, which is to eat mostly whole, minimally processed foods. It's the whole limiting or eliminating grains/legumes/dairy for everyone that I take issue with. Yet the more zealous Paleo/Primal peeps think I'm against the diet, which I have my suspicions why, but we'll leave that alone for now

    I did notice that you had stated your agreement with the main premise back in "the thread". In almost all cases, those who are overzealous get blinded by defending thier positions. Just take a look at the strength vs. cardio threads to see the lunacy play out. On the whole grains and legumes thing, my take is that if they cause you no issue, do what you wish. There are some issues with the digestabilty of saccharids on legumes and the resulting gas but in my view, no harm, no foul. Same with the phytates in grains inhibiting mineral absorbtion. Again, context and dosage are key factors.
  • Ambrogio1
    Ambrogio1 Posts: 518 Member
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    Toniights Episode is

    "if you sniff splenda you die"
  • AeolianHarp
    AeolianHarp Posts: 463 Member
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    I know I've heard all this before. It doesn't add up. I think we should be a lot fatter than this because this environment has changed quite a bit more than obesity rates have. Plus it doesn't explain the obese cultures that are not like us.

    What cultures? Some cultures view fatness as a sign of wealth and therefore purposefully over feed. Some cultures (like the Japanese and Okinawans) practice "hara hachi bu," eat until you're 80% full so that they don't get fat. Sometimes it's environment. The Inuits, for example, consume a diet largely made up of fat, some protein and almost no carbs yet their CVD is (was) lower than North Americans. But, no matter how it goes, overeating = fat gain. Why someone eats a lot or little can be for so many reasons. But we should not remove culpability. Little Johnny wouldn't have been all that fat 100 years ago yet he would now. The manipulation of how foods taste now can be partially blamed but no one is forcing food down anyone's throat.

    I'm not particularly sure why you are so set on making sure fat people arent to blame for the excessive consumption of food. There are too many societal and psychological factors to pinpoint one but we can say for sure fat people are fst because they eat too much. And fat people who become skinny then fat again eat too much.
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    I know I've heard all this before. It doesn't add up. I think we should be a lot fatter than this because this environment has changed quite a bit more than obesity rates have. Plus it doesn't explain the obese cultures that are not like us.

    What cultures? Some cultures view fatness as a sign of wealth and therefore purposefully over feed. Some cultures (like the Japanese and Okinawans) practice "hara hachi bu," eat until you're 80% full so that they don't get fat. Sometimes it's environment. The Inuits, for example, consume a diet largely made up of fat, some protein and almost no carbs yet their CVD is (was) lower than North Americans. But, no matter how it goes, overeating = fat gain. Why someone eats a lot or little can be for so many reasons. But we should not remove culpability. Little Johnny wouldn't have been all that fat 100 years ago yet he would now. The manipulation of how foods taste now can be partially blamed but no one is forcing food down anyone's throat.

    I'm not particularly sure why you are so set on making sure fat people arent to blame for the excessive consumption of food. There are too many societal and psychological factors to pinpoint one but we can say for sure fat people are fst because they eat too much. And fat people who become skinny then fat again eat too much.

    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.
  • AeolianHarp
    AeolianHarp Posts: 463 Member
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    Sounds vaguely like Taubes' Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    I'd say my beliefs are more in line with the idea that the quality of foods we eat and our genetics ultimately determine the health of our fat metabolism and whether we end up thin or fat.
  • sipseyab
    sipseyab Posts: 59
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    "Dr. Robert Lustig, a pediatric endocrinologist at the University of California, believes the high amount of sugar in the American diet, much of it in processed foods, is killing us."
    OK, that does not sounds crazy to me. I have to agree with that.

    "And as Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports, new scientific research seems to support his theory that sugar is toxic, including some linking the excess ingestion of sugars to heart disease."
    That is widely believed. Ever seen Food Matters?

    I don't understand the haters who posted before me. I have never heard of this Lustig guy but sounds like he is on the right path.

    I am in total agreement with you. I cut out ALL HFCS and have virtually no sugar cravings any more. I don't understand what's so hard to believe about this information.
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    Sounds vaguely like Taubes' Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity

    Lustig says the same thing, just that fructose gets the ball rolling.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    Sounds vaguely like Taubes' Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity

    Lustig says the same thing, just that fructose gets the ball rolling.

    And how much is considered excessive?
  • LinzCurlyQ
    LinzCurlyQ Posts: 94 Member
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    Toniights Episode is

    "if you sniff splenda you die"

    This made me laugh
  • PoochPottery
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    bump
  • grinch031
    grinch031 Posts: 1,679
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    Sounds vaguely like Taubes' Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity

    Lustig says the same thing, just that fructose gets the ball rolling.

    And how much is considered excessive?

    I don't remember if he actually defines what is excessive, but I think from one of his lectures he recommended something like only one soda per day worth of added sugar.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Because there is scientific evidence that fat metabolism is regulated by the body. Its not up for debate, it is true. To what extent is really where the debate comes in. Everyone knows environment can affect both your calorie consumption and energy expenditure, but I happen to think the data shows more compellingly that the body rules over the mind.

    So, the reason people are becoming fatter than before is because more bodies are being produced that want to be fat thus the body forces the mind to overeat so they can die faster?

    You'll have to show me this compelling data because this sounds like some voodoo horse ****.

    Sounds vaguely like Taubes' Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity

    Lustig says the same thing, just that fructose gets the ball rolling.

    And how much is considered excessive?

    I don't remember if he actually defines what is excessive, but I think from one of his lectures he recommended something like only one soda per day worth of added sugar.

    Which is silly, that would mean that the amount he defines as excessive totally leaves out the energy requirements of the person consuming it.