Ketone Bodies, the Brain, and Cancer - Low Carb
Replies
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See above post.Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Really?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?
Ketoacidosis is dangerous for people having type II diabetes and a malfunctioning liver (It has to do with Insulin again). A normal healthy individual doesn't get Ketoacidosis. As for "Do need", no you do not "need" to consume carbs, however, in the form of fruits and veggies, it is certainly more flavorful.
Respectfully, that's not true. Type 1 or type 2 diabetes and it's rare but very possible in non-diabetics.
The amount of ketones in a low carber is not comparable to amount when ketoacidosis - which is a hell of a lot more.0 -
cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.
"First, the group of Michael Lisanti has published work suggesting that tumors can evade the metabolic restrictions of a ketogenic diet by manipulating neighboring normal cells. The idea (here is an overview) is that cancer cells release hydrogen peroxide, which causes a stress response in neighboring cells, stimulating them to release lactic acid, which the cancer cells can metabolize. This process can happen nearly as well on a ketogenic as on a normal diet, so the effectiveness of a ketogenic diet in starving the cancer cells is reduced. "
"The Lisanti group results are hardly conclusive – indeed so far as I know no other group has supported their claims – and there are plenty of skeptics."
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=47390 -
The only carbohydrates that our bodies NEED are those that are provided for by nature.
Nature has it right. Man does not...
PERIOD0 -
The only carbohydrates that our bodies NEED are those that are provided for by nature.
Nature has it right. Man does not...
PERIOD
You know, I'm inclned to agree with you, but what about wheats? They have to be minimally processed (granted, most that humans eat are very processed). Nature provided wheat, and other grains that need to be minimally processed. So my question would be where do they fit in the picture? G0 -
Jesus man what's up with your war on carbs on these forums?0
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Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.
Same here... I can get all the carbs my brain or muscles "need" from veggies and fruits. Those who despise the thought of low carb do not have to deal with diabetes. Proteins, fats, veggies, and fruits - thats all we need. Grains are actually a processed carb and not good for diabetics.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
You are always quick to say "studies have shown", but I never saw you link any in any of your posts, while everyone that takes apart your prophesies link peer-reviewed studies to back what they say. Wishful thinking doesn't make anything true. And here is a perfect example of one that just destroys your last sentence :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC333231/
Which shows some results exactly opposite of what you are saying. So until you find me at least one article, or even better a recent systematic review on the subject that would include the study I linked and explain what they did wrong, you are just spreading made up BS.0 -
The only carbohydrates that our bodies NEED are those that are provided for by nature.
Nature has it right. Man does not...
PERIOD
Well, I am 10000% for eating carbs, but this type of argument is really weak and easily defeated. Nature makes tons of things that will instantly kill you if you eat them, doesn't make them healthy because they are "natural".
A much much better argument is the one that human breast milk has 37% carbs, that was already posted in this thread. Now that just goes to show that indeed, we are meant to eat carbs.
And for the whole intolerance to carbs things, well that is fairly new to the human race relatively speaking. Up to like what, 200 years ago maybe, those people would just have died. Hurray for the fact that now they survive, and though it sucks that they have to adapt their diets, this can't be seen as a proof that it's bad for the majority of people to eat what we are biologically engineered to eat.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
You are always quick to say "studies have shown", but I never saw you link any in any of your posts, while everyone that takes apart your prophesies link peer-reviewed studies to back what they say. Wishful thinking doesn't make anything true. And here is a perfect example of one that just destroys your last sentence :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC333231/
Which shows some results exactly opposite of what you are saying. So until you find me at least one article, or even better a recent systematic review on the subject that would include the study I linked and explain what they did wrong, you are just spreading made up BS.
Hmm I am interested in hearing more on this. In the last 3 months I have had a 3lb gain in LBM (physicians center dunk tank) and a 25lb weight loss. This is while on a ketogenic diet. I have posted my workouts and increases in lifting here several times. So if you can't build muscle, then what do I attribute that to? I thought these big(to me) bumps coming up on my arms, legs, back and shoulders were muscle. I know that my diet makes it a little more difficult but if it's impossible then what is the point.0 -
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Hmm I am interested in hearing more on this. In the last 3 months I have had a 3lb gain in LBM (physicians center dunk tank) and a 25lb weight loss. This is while on a ketogenic diet. I have posted my workouts and increases in lifting here several times. So if you can't build muscle, then what do I attribute that to? I thought these big(to me) bumps coming up on my arms, legs, back and shoulders were muscle. I know that my diet makes it a little more difficult but if it's impossible then what is the point.
Well, the study that I linked was focusing on the composition of weight loss between a ketogenic and a mixed diet, it was just targeted at the last sentence mister OP wrote that ketogenic diets preserve lean mass more than other diets, not really at the muscle building part of the quotes.
Try reading the one ninerbuff linked though, and following the references in that study to find out more
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I've been on a ketogenic diet for a couple of months now and am married to a carb-loving neuropathologist who studies the types of pediatric brain cancers in that paper. It just so happens that we had a conversation about the legitimacy of that study last weekend. I had him read the original study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/7790697?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn) and another paper I found in which a small update to the original study was added 10 years after the fact (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3157418/?tool=pubmed). So far as my husband was concerned, both of these studies were little more than anecdotal and are not even remotely close to being evidence enough to state that ketogenic diets have an impact one way or the other on cancer growth.
Some major issues he pointed out: the study itself is identified even by the authors as being incomplete and inconclusive. These studies were not published by high ranking, reputable, peer-reviewed journals. Maybe most obviously, the studies are poorly designed, include far too few participants of too many varied states, conditions, and cancers, standards of measurement are inconsistent from one participating patient/hospital/doctor to the next...
These papers serve as examples of some cancer patients noticing quality of life improvement from a ketogenic diet. However, these studies do not demonstrate a CAUSAL relationship between a ketogenic diet and any effect on cancer one way or the other.
Another note - It's true that cancer cells use more glucose when glucose is available. Cancer cells simply use more energy, period, than other cells. However, the statements I've seen in several papers that state (but fail to cite) that cancer can ONLY use glucose is a failure of logic. Observing a drop in the metabolism of glucose in cancer cells when available glucose is minimized does not demonstrate that the cancer is not using and can not use other fuels. Nobody has demonstrated that cancer cells are only able to use glucose as fuel or that cancer cells are unable to use ketones. I, too, have read in (frighteningly bad) peer-reviewed papers that "cancer cells need glucose to survive" but those papers do not demonstrate this or refer to any other study that has.
It's easy to think that because something has been published in a medical journal that it is GOOD science, but that isn't always the case. Unfortunately, popular media loves to further distort questionable science and deliver it to the public as indisputable fact.
Otherwise, though, I think ketosis is great, and I don't find it surprising that anyone, cancer or no cancer, would feel better on such a diet. That doesn't mean that it's a cure for cancer, though.0 -
Thanks for posting. I am very interested in burning. I have been trying to get keto adapted for the past two weeks and I have been wondering how long it would take. Anyway, thanks for the post.0
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Most important thing in what you said was "First clinical trail", the medical industry tends to contradict itself on a regular basis, a study is not a study unless it is over 5,000 patients, multi-center and randomized study. You can get a study to say what your hypothosis is very easily when you have one center, and a small patient base. Yesterday eggs were bad, now they are good, today carbs are bad, this too will pass.
My mom has stage 4a (advanced) ovarian cancer, she has tried every diet under the sun to complement her chemo and none of them affect her cancer one way or another.
Sorry to hear about you mom! Yeah anyone can make their study prove them right. Did that in Sociology Class!0 -
Sounds like there are 2 separate issues here:
1 Diet + lifestyle for optimal health
2 Diet + lifestyle for optimal something else - enjoying life, being busy, being manageable, etc
While carbs as a macromolecule will not kill you or cause cancer/ diabetes/ hypertension/ dyslipidemia, etc, the author of the original post is accurate. We do not require any carbs in our diet to provide sufficient metabolic substrate for our body to synthesize its own energy currencies: Glucose, Ketone bodies, and the more derivative ATP, as well as a myriad of C-skeleton molecules as building blocks for anabolic biosynthesis.
Our bodies are adept metabolic machines that can convert many molecules to glucose - carbs, proteins, nucleic acids, even a component of fatty acids called glycerol. All of these molecules are considered gluconeogenic substrates.
Normally, glucose circulates in the bloodstream after caloric intake + metabolism, as well as on a consistent basis as fat, protein, and glycerol are converted to glucose by gluconeogenic pathways. However, when dietary carbohydrate intake and gluconeogenic subtrates are low, ketone bodies are synthesized from fatty acid and cholesterol sources and circulate around to be broken down for energy where needed.
Do any body parts require glucose? The brain, liver, kidneys, retinas, and red blood cells prefer glucose. Of these, retinas, red blood cells, and parts of the kidney require glucose. However, even following a ketogenic diet, the body can meet these demands through gluconeogenesis.
As far as health, the science is becoming clearer: High dietary carbohydrate intake as well as high levels of storage (mostly as fat!) - increases the risk of all leading preventable causes of morbidity and mortality in the US: Cardiovascular disease, Diabetes, Hypertension, Kidney disease/failure, Metabolic Syndrome, and sporadic cancers (nonhereditary). The relation is most obvious for Diabetes mellitus type 2 (DM2), in which chronically high blood glucose levels causes systemic damage: Kidney, Nerve, Eye, Immune system, Gut function, and in acute cases, fatal comas.
One of the biggest missing pieces in the research: How much dietary carb intake is too much? Carbs are not inherently evil. Above a threshold consistently crossed over time, they can cause problems. This threshold probably varies by an individual's:
-Genetics
-Kind of carbs eaten: A cucumber vs a processed food like bread
-Environment
-Other lifestyle factors: Physical activity, exercise, smoking, alcohol intake, co-morbidity, etc.
All of this being said, the choice of following a ketogenic diet is a personal one. You may do it for health reasons. You may do it because a Dr recommended it. You may do it as an experiment. Or, you may not do it because it's too much micromanaging or too extreme to limit something you'd like to continue eating.
Whatever you decide, you're right. In terms of diet, the best diet is one you can stick with.
A diet is a lifestyle, so whatever you can do long-term for your health and happiness, do it. Be well!0 -
I guess it really isn't settled then if a keto diet helps stop cancer cells from spreading. More testing should be done on this. If there is ANYWAY to stop cancer, we should test immediately for it. That is why I said, let's discuss.
Thanks everyone who contributed to the discussion. I learned much from reading your posts.0 -
Didn't address the point I was making. Building muscle is important to myself and the majority of my clientele. So ketogenic is pretty much out. Muscle sparing can be done without having to go on ketogenic diet.Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
LBM doesn't just have to be "muscle". Resistance training increases bone density, glycogen storage, water retention, etc. Seeing muscle doesn't mean you built muscle. In fact building muscle on calorie deficit is almost impossible to begin with. You'd have to be on a short list of exceptional persons.Hmm I am interested in hearing more on this. In the last 3 months I have had a 3lb gain in LBM (physicians center dunk tank) and a 25lb weight loss. This is while on a ketogenic diet. I have posted my workouts and increases in lifting here several times. So if you can't build muscle, then what do I attribute that to? I thought these big(to me) bumps coming up on my arms, legs, back and shoulders were muscle. I know that my diet makes it a little more difficult but if it's impossible then what is the point.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I trust in science and it is slowly working to identify genes that are susceptible to/cause every type of cancer. I'm sure that in the near future, we'll find a way to suppress it , at the very least like they've done with HIV.I guess it really isn't settled then if a keto diet helps stop cancer cells from spreading. More testing should be done on this. If there is ANYWAY to stop cancer, we should test immediately for it. That is why I said, let's discuss.
Thanks everyone who contributed to the discussion. I learned much from reading your posts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
The only carbohydrates that our bodies NEED are those that are provided for by nature.
Nature has it right. Man does not...
PERIOD
You know, I'm inclned to agree with you, but what about wheats? They have to be minimally processed (granted, most that humans eat are very processed). Nature provided wheat, and other grains that need to be minimally processed. So my question would be where do they fit in the picture? G
We don't have to eat every single plant (or animal) in nature simply because it is available.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.
Same here... I can get all the carbs my brain or muscles "need" from veggies and fruits. Those who despise the thought of low carb do not have to deal with diabetes. Proteins, fats, veggies, and fruits - thats all we need. Grains are actually a processed carb and not good for diabetics.
No one said anyone had to eat grains.0 -
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a couple of months now and am married to a carb-loving neuropathologist who studies the types of pediatric brain cancers in that paper. It just so happens that we had a conversation about the legitimacy of that study last weekend. I had him read the original study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/7790697?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn) and another paper I found in which a small update to the original study was added 10 years after the fact (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3157418/?tool=pubmed). So far as my husband was concerned, both of these studies were little more than anecdotal and are not even remotely close to being evidence enough to state that ketogenic diets have an impact one way or the other on cancer growth.
Some major issues he pointed out: the study itself is identified even by the authors as being incomplete and inconclusive. These studies were not published by high ranking, reputable, peer-reviewed journals. Maybe most obviously, the studies are poorly designed, include far too few participants of too many varied states, conditions, and cancers, standards of measurement are inconsistent from one participating patient/hospital/doctor to the next...
These papers serve as examples of some cancer patients noticing quality of life improvement from a ketogenic diet. However, these studies do not demonstrate a CAUSAL relationship between a ketogenic diet and any effect on cancer one way or the other.
Another note - It's true that cancer cells use more glucose when glucose is available. Cancer cells simply use more energy, period, than other cells. However, the statements I've seen in several papers that state (but fail to cite) that cancer can ONLY use glucose is a failure of logic. Observing a drop in the metabolism of glucose in cancer cells when available glucose is minimized does not demonstrate that the cancer is not using and can not use other fuels. Nobody has demonstrated that cancer cells are only able to use glucose as fuel or that cancer cells are unable to use ketones. I, too, have read in (frighteningly bad) peer-reviewed papers that "cancer cells need glucose to survive" but those papers do not demonstrate this or refer to any other study that has.
It's easy to think that because something has been published in a medical journal that it is GOOD science, but that isn't always the case. Unfortunately, popular media loves to further distort questionable science and deliver it to the public as indisputable fact.
Otherwise, though, I think ketosis is great, and I don't find it surprising that anyone, cancer or no cancer, would feel better on such a diet. That doesn't mean that it's a cure for cancer, though.
Your username is entirely apt.
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Didn't address the point I was making. Building muscle is important to myself and the majority of my clientele. So ketogenic is pretty much out. Muscle sparing can be done without having to go on ketogenic diet.Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So, what you are telling me then is that given my disorder, I will never be able to build muscle and I might as well give up my workouts and my career aspirations because where I am now, this point I've come to, this is it. I have absolutely no chance of building muscle?0 -
Didn't address the point I was making. Building muscle is important to myself and the majority of my clientele. So ketogenic is pretty much out. Muscle sparing can be done without having to go on ketogenic diet.Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You should know all of this since you have so many degress or whatever that is in your signature, but for weight loss you need to be in a caloric negetive and for weight gain or muscle gain you need to be in a caloric surplus.
Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit.
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone.0 -
And as far as needing "insulin spikes" to create muscle mass (which I have never heard before), protein can also cause an insulin response, as well as your body's gluconeogenesis. I am on a ketogenic diet, but it doesn't mean I have low blood sugar. And I've built muscle while on a caloric deficit. If anything, lifting helped my body to convert fat to muscle (as far as BF% and "weight loss" goes) even faster.0
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Never, probably not. I'm sure there's ways around every disorder to achieve certain goals.So, what you are telling me then is that given my disorder, I will never be able to build muscle and I might as well give up my workouts and my career aspirations because where I am now, this point I've come to, this is it. I have absolutely no chance of building muscle?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I don't dispute this.You should know all of this since you have so many degress or whatever that is in your signature, but for weight loss you need to be in a caloric negetive and for weight gain or muscle gain you need to be in a caloric surplus.
I don't dispute this either. Even the obese/overweight person won't gain a significant amount of muscle though. I believe in a ketogenic diet SHORT TERM to "cut up" for a contest, but for lifestyle or to be used to add on a significant amount of muscle, scientific studies are showing that it's not practical.Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit.
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Guess you didn't read the article I posted on how insulin response works with ketogenic diet. Between 50–60% of protein becomes glucose and enters the bloodstream about 3–4 hours after eaten." Perhaps 50–60% of protein goes through the process of gluconeogenesis in the liver, but virtually none of this glucose enters into the general circulation. This from the Journal of Diabetes.orgAnd as far as needing "insulin spikes" to create muscle mass (which I have never heard before), protein can also cause an insulin response, as well as your body's gluconeogenesis. I am on a ketogenic diet, but it doesn't mean I have low blood sugar. And I've built muscle while on a caloric deficit. If anything, lifting helped my body to convert fat to muscle (as far as BF% and "weight loss" goes) even faster.
And how are you certain you built muscle? Did you do a dexa scan to verify it? Or like many are you assuming that because you got stronger, can see more definition, and your muscle "pops" now that muscle gain was achieved?
Don't need to try to convince me because I've been doing this long enough to understand how muscle building is attained. What you're trying to convey is anecdotal and unless you've got some peer reviewed studies to actually back them, then it's just opinion.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
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