Setting the record straight on "muscle building deficits"
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bumping,............. going to read and reread it all to understand it, a bit slow here, lol.0
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I want to also qualify my statements about the Bodymedia FIT, Bodybugg and Fitbit devices. These are not 100% accurate. They are about 90-93% accurate but it's worked out pretty well for quite a few people.
Just saying...0 -
Bumping for an in-depth read later.0
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Hm, I guess since I've stayed the same weight for 8 weeks then I must be near my TDEE right now.. I have considered getting a body bugg etc, but I'm going to wait until i've been on MFP for longer... I haven't figured out yet if post-reaching goal I will continue to count calories or not. But I am considering training to be a PT so I guess at that point I'd probably want one
PS I eat 1700 net right now.. the estimation calculations said my TDEE would be 1900.0 -
So one or 2 days of pigging out can actually cause fat gain? Wow, this is new...I always thought...somehow somewhere I read, it takes 7 days for body to ajust and grow something...0
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So one or 2 days of pigging out can actually cause fat gain? Wow, this is new...I always thought...somehow somewhere I read, it takes 7 days for body to ajust and grow something...
If you go as far as eating 7000 calories in surplus? Yes.
Fat mobilization happens throughout the day, every single day.0 -
OK, I don't think I went that high...I actually looked at what I ate last time, it was 2500 cal together...That's how much I felt full and fed up with. LOLSo one or 2 days of pigging out can actually cause fat gain? Wow, this is new...I always thought...somehow somewhere I read, it takes 7 days for body to ajust and grow something...
If you go as far as eating 7000 calories in surplus? Yes.0 -
Hm, I guess since I've stayed the same weight for 8 weeks then I must be near my TDEE right now.. I have considered getting a body bugg etc, but I'm going to wait until i've been on MFP for longer... I haven't figured out yet if post-reaching goal I will continue to count calories or not. But I am considering training to be a PT so I guess at that point I'd probably want one
PS I eat 1700 net right now.. the estimation calculations said my TDEE would be 1900.
Hmm...looked at your pics. You look pretty lean already. Remember, the leaner you are, the harder it is to lose further and also it's twice as hard to retain as much LBM as possible.0 -
If you can spend the money it's worth getting a Bodymedia FIT, Bodybugg or Fitbit device. It's one of the best investments I've made so far other than future CPT and Fitness Nutrition Cert training.
Otherwise you'll have to go about it the hard way. Some folks will take their bodyweight and multiply it by 12-18 depending on their activity level, which is a rough guess honestly. Some people will eat normally for 2-4 weeks, tracking everything, and seeing how they progress. If their weight remains the same, then they just found their TDEE. This takes incredible patience and the will to only weigh yourself once a week. It's honestly, how I started.
Now I use a Bodymedia FIT lol.
Thanks for this Joe. I did it the hard way and have figured out my TDEE by trial and error. I try to make sure at least 30% of my calories is protein. More trial and error on just how much of a surplus I need to eat.
And I will definitely look into the Bodymedia FIT.0 -
What constitutes "Newbie gains"?
When does someone stop being a newbie?
Why can't you use fat energy to produce muscle? I think it's because below 30% BF you don't produce the hormones that turns protein into muscle at a calorie deficit?
Is it possible to gain some muscle some days and lose fat on others? For example yesterday I did a huge strength train session. I ate at a surplus yesterday and today. Well, and I'll probably be over Friday and Saturday too. But Sunday I'll be back at a calorie deficit. Will I actually accomplish anything? PS: This isn't an intentional training plan, I'm just asking the question 'cus it crossed my mind after reading this post.
Thanks for providing the information.0 -
Soo true...Many of us confuse seeing a muscle definition when we are lifting on a deficit as "muscle gain" where the truth is that we are seeing it because our body fat levels have decreased & the existing muscles in our body that was hiding underneath by thick layers the fat are beginning to show. The truth is that muscle gain is very difficult on both genders but especially on a woman which is why I never believe when a woman says that she gains muscle fast with heavy weight lifting, she is just making an excuse not to lift heavy weights. Actually building muscle is a lot more difficult than fat loss.
If it were that easy to lose fat & gain muscle then everyone would be walking around with big biceps or a six pack.
EDIT: Not to mention also that just like we are losing both fat & muscle on a deficit, when we gain muscle, we also gain fat at the same time. Those two work hand in hand & we can't avoid it completely but we can only minimize fat gain while in building phase.0 -
What constitutes "Newbie gains"?
When does someone stop being a newbie?
Why can't you use fat energy to produce muscle? I think it's because below 30% BF you don't produce the hormones that turns protein into muscle at a calorie deficit?
Is it possible to gain some muscle some days and lose fat on others? For example yesterday I did a huge strength train session. I ate at a surplus yesterday and today. Well, and I'll probably be over Friday and Saturday too. But Sunday I'll be back at a calorie deficit. Will I actually accomplish anything? PS: This isn't an intentional training plan, I'm just asking the question 'cus it crossed my mind after reading this post.
Thanks for providing the information.
Newbie gains are muscle mass gains that are produced from introducing muscle tissue breakdown to the human body. Lyle McDonald explains it in much more detail. To avoid posting a wall of a text, I'll give you a link that you can check out later if you want to. http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
If you eat a calorie surplus as well as incorporating some kind of weight resistance training program, you will produce new growth tissue. This will be both muscle and fat as well as LBM to support the increase in weight. If you eat a surplus for a few days, then eat a deficit ..and switch back once again...this "can" work but it will take an ungodly amount of time and it will actually depends on other factors such as overall weekly calorie intake.
Meaning, if you eat a surplus for a few days, and then eat a deficit so that by the end of the week, you're still in a weekly calorie deficit under TDEE...you won't be building much muscle at all over the long term. But, once you get past the "newness" of introducing lifting to your routine and you go on a 3-6 month bulk, and THEN cut ...you will potentially get closer to your genetic muscular potential and build some mass.
It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.0 -
It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.
What about for a woman? I'm trying to decide if I should bulk or cut. I'm 20% bf right now.0 -
Thank you so much for your time! I get an obscene amount of protein each day (120g-ish) but certainly wouldn't mind adding more if needed. I'll be consistent in my training and look forward to seeing these muscles eventually!
Heck that's not obscene! I get close to 220g most days!
Agreed, that's not obscene, I average about 300g
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thank you! i've been very irritated by this as well...0
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It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.
What about for a woman? I'm trying to decide if I should bulk or cut. I'm 20% bf right now.
Yea, that. At 10% I'm pretty sure I'd be dead. 0 -
It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.
What about for a woman? I'm trying to decide if I should bulk or cut. I'm 20% bf right now.
20% for a woman is good to bulk on. 18-19% is a swimsuit model type body.0 -
It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.
What about for a woman? I'm trying to decide if I should bulk or cut. I'm 20% bf right now.
20% for a woman is good to bulk on. 18-19% is a swimsuit model type body.
Well that just makes me want to cut to a swimsuit model body. lol
Seriously though, I do worry about a prolonged cut lowering my metabolism so much that when I do bulk I'll over-do it and gain a ton of fat.
I feel like there are 3 options:
1.)Continue to lift on a deficit and never gain muscle, but lower my bf.
2.) Eat at maintenance and neither gain muscle nor lose fat.
3.) Eat at a surplus and gain minimal amounts of muscle while also adding fat.
I honestly don't like any of these options.0 -
It also depends on how fast you bulk and cut. I recommend cutting until you get roughly 10% bodyfat and then do a bulk to 15%...and THEN cut back down again to 7-8%, etc.
Takes patience, hard work, great diet, and consistency.
What about for a woman? I'm trying to decide if I should bulk or cut. I'm 20% bf right now.
20% for a woman is good to bulk on. 18-19% is a swimsuit model type body.
Well that just makes me want to cut to a swimsuit model body. lol
Seriously though, I do worry about a prolonged cut lowering my metabolism so much that when I do bulk I'll over-do it and gain a ton of fat.
I feel like there are 3 options:
1.)Continue to lift on a deficit and never gain muscle, but lower my bf.
2.) Eat at maintenance and neither gain muscle nor lose fat.
3.) Eat at a surplus and gain minimal amounts of muscle while also adding fat.
I honestly don't like any of these options.
Hmm..Cut to 19-20%, and do a IF bulk. You'll still gain some fat, but it will be somewhat minimal. www.leangains.com0 -
Bump0
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Ok, just to keep this thread going, I'm gonna post my 4 1/2 month progress pics. I had my bodyfat measured (with calipers) shortly after the "before" pic, and then again recently...as I said, it showed my LBM to be EXACTLY the same. I know you guys poo-poo calipers, but come on--we don't all live in places where DEXA testing is feasible. Anyway, I gotta be honest, I was HOPING for some added LBM (even though I know the science says it ain't gonna happen), but my (admittedly sub-standard) testing showed that I was merely able to MAINTAIN my LBM while losing bodyfat....All that being said, how sad can I really be about my results?? Not too sad....:smokin:
All that to say.....Maintaining (not building) your muscle mass while you lose bodyfat is a reasonable and achievable goal, and you can still get results you'll be happy about. (Btw, I'm not tan now--it's just lighting....)
Still a lot of work to do....
You did this in 3 1/2 months?? You are my hero... must...keep...lifting!0 -
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This doesn't apply to severely obese individuals who have a lot of abnormal things going on with their ghrelin/leptin signalling axis that means the protein synthesis isn't as energy-sensitive at body fat levels above 30%, so having severe obesity means you can build fairly significant muscle even in severe calorie deficits.
there'll be plenty of women with >30% body fat in the "overweight" category (BMI 25 - 30) so it's not just the severely obese.0 -
bump xxx0
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Based on what I've read, it's my understanding that a given amount of muscle has a certain maximum potential strength, and by lifting weights, you can progress to that point without having to add any new muscle mass (and this can be done even if you're cutting weight).
If you do reach that point, you're pretty much lifting as much as you're going to manage without starting to eat at a surplus for a while, so you can build new muscle to increase your potential strength.0 -
It's in relation to our basic instincts for survival and connected to our feast and famine response. When we don't eat enough (deficit) the body will automatically start burning body fat to adjust for that calorie deficit and if this condition persists, metabolic adaption can occur and our metabolism can slow to help compensate for the deficit of the impending famine and some muscle mass is also sacrificed to manufacture glucose and supply amino acids for prioritized function where required which also extends our fat stores to ultimately extend life.What constitutes "Newbie gains"?
When does someone stop being a newbie?
Newbie gains are in response to a new danger (lifting) we've inflicted upon our body during or at the same time the body saw a slow down in calories and nutrients. Basically the body has two problems going forward to deal with. The weight resistance is seen as a danger because it requires calories to maintain but also could cause injury if muscle mass continues to be sacrificed as a substrate (source) for energy simply because the lifting is seen as a new duty and the body doesn't know it's just you lifting weights, but see's it as a large rock that could crash upon your head and cause serious injury or immediate death, lol, true. We've created a conflict of interest where the body needs to prioritized over a timeline.
The adjustment made for just the deficit is calculated over a timeline and will flucuate depending on the nutrients coming into the body, small deficit the timeline is longer, bigger deficits uses more muscle as energy to extend that shorter timeline. Introducing that immediate danger (lifting) has changed the length of that timeline to survival, remember the rock, so now to survive it either maintains muscle or builds muscle if it can, which is also influenced by the amount of weight, intensity, and time your lifting and calories. The more weight and time you lift, more muscle maintenance or building is going to take place, until the point of diminishing return happens. In other words as time goes on and we haven't been killed by that rock, the body will start to stop building or maintaining and begin using that muscle for fuel to ultimately extend our life....the rock becomes less significant and survival in relation to time takes place.
Keep in mind that this is the reason protein requirements increase in a deficit, either to help maintain muscle mass or supply amino acids, and glucose and more so when extra stress is applied like lifting. The topic of increasing muscle mass in a deficit is really overblown. yes it happens but when looking at your our timeline which should actually be a lifestyle change it's but a very short time.....maybe a few months.0 -
BUMP!! I want to read this later 0
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