Cardio before strength

13

Replies

  • BethlovesRene
    BethlovesRene Posts: 85 Member
    Cardio warm-up before strength is correct. I suggest no more than 10 minutes to get warmed up.

    However to burn the most amount of bodyfat, irregardless of what your heart rate monitor says, you need to understand how your energy systems work. Weight training, anaerobic activity should be done before cardio. Simply put, weight training drains your muscles glycogen stores (your bodies primary fuel source), and when followed up by cardio, your body then fuels the activity by burning your bodyfat.

    An ideal session would include 10 - 15 minutes of stretching and cardio.
    45 - 60 minutes weights.
    15 - 20 minutes cardio.

    Never exeed 90 minutes in one session.

    Hope that anwers your question....and if you really want results, ask me about epoc. (exercise post oxygen consumption)


    I'm interested, what is epoc?
  • iWaffle
    iWaffle Posts: 2,208 Member
    Seriously? Is this for real?
    The WHOLE reason I bought a HRM was to see what I was doing while weight lifting

    Some of the Polar HRMs can be used with strength training to show you when the optimal time is to start the next set. I think the FT80 has this option. While it can give you guidance on when to rest or proceed to the next set it won't tell you an accurate number of calories burned during strength training. That's not it's purpose.

    From a help page at Spark
    Why does the Fitness Tracker not calculate calories burned through strength training?

    Although you will burn calories from strength training, that number is going to vary widely from person to person. It will depend on how much weight you are using, how many sets/reps you are doing, how much rest you take in between sets and how hard you are working. Therefore any estimates would not be reliable. Just consider this to be an extra bonus to your weekly goals!

    http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/fitness_articles.asp?id=536
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    During intense strength exercise your body will run into a shortage of oxygen and switch from aerobic to anaerobic and will start creating ATP from carbohydrates without the use of oxygen. Energy conversion happens faster in anaerobic conditions at the expense of less energy produced. It gives you a tremendous amount of usable energy that heart rate monitors can't measure because your heart doesn't have to pump all the energy to those muscles like it does during cardio exercise. The liver stores much of this but some of the energy is already there stored in the muscle and can be used instantly.

    I don't think HRMs are designed to monitor this energy output. You would need to have a VO2 sensor and probably some type of blood glucose monitor to accurately determine the difference between when your body switched from aerobic to anaerobic. That's way beyond what a HRM was designed for. It's strictly for aerobic exercise. I'm sure there's some truth to calories burned based on your breathing and heart rate but it's not going to be accurate for strength training.

    So if you had testing done to see at what heart rates your body changes from aerobic to anaerobic would you then have a more accurate measure? I truly am trying to learn and want to understand this.
    heartrate has nothing to do with it. There is no heartrate cuttoff when anaerobic exercise kicks in. It's intensity. If you lift or do anything at a high enough intensity, your body uses Type II fibres to do it.

    To put it another way, your body has engines that power the muscles. to keep it simple, a car engine, and a jet engine. The heart rate monitor measures gasoline consumption of the car engine. since a Jet engine does not use gas, your gas monitoring HRM is unable to measure the jetfuel burned. Different energy systems in the body. The HRM measures the cardio system. It is unable to measure the lactic acid or ATP-CP energy system.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_systems

    Thanks for this! Now this is something I can easily grasp the concept. Thanks!

    Not sure the concept is correct, but we may be talking about separate issues.

    Here is the explanation:

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Cardio warm-up before strength is correct. I suggest no more than 10 minutes to get warmed up.

    However to burn the most amount of bodyfat, irregardless of what your heart rate monitor says, you need to understand how your energy systems work. Weight training, anaerobic activity should be done before cardio. Simply put, weight training drains your muscles glycogen stores (your bodies primary fuel source), and when followed up by cardio, your body then fuels the activity by burning your bodyfat.

    An ideal session would include 10 - 15 minutes of stretching and cardio.
    45 - 60 minutes weights.
    15 - 20 minutes cardio.

    Never exeed 90 minutes in one session.

    Hope that anwers your question....and if you really want results, ask me about epoc. (exercise post oxygen consumption)

    Excellent information. Burn off the sugars first, then the body is more inclined to metabolized fat for fuel.

    That would all be well and good if it made any difference. But it doesn't. The fuel you burn during exercise has no effect on body fat. Even if you burn more fat during exercise, a) it's a miniscule amount to begin with and b) the body burns less fat the rest of the day, so that at the end of 24 hrs there is no difference, either in total fat oxidized or RQ.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    I notice if I run on the treadmill even just for 15 minutes before doing some lifting, I burn over twice as many calories per my HRM. Then if I just start lifting first.
    Is that right?

    Regardless of the other answers, in this case the answer is simple:

    No.

    What you are seeing is an HRM anomaly, nothing more. Your HRM is giving you garbage data.
  • OnionMomma
    OnionMomma Posts: 938 Member
    So, just trying to understand all this.......the last week I have been running at around 5mph and then lifting 2 exercises (6 sets total) for 1 body part. Then I head back to the treadmill to run again.

    I do this for my entire upper body and then lower body on another day.

    I had to change my routine up alot as for the most part all I was doing was cardio and really light weights during aerobic classes at the YMCA.

    It must have worked as I dropped 2lbs in one week. The biggest drop I've seen yet. My appetite was WAY up as well.

    My question is this, should I be doing this, or should I just do all my cardio at the end?
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    I was just looking this up yesterday. Experts say that cardio before strength training burns more calories and increases the after burn as well. Pretty awesome! I found this info here >> http://exercise.about.com/od/gettingweightlossresults/a/Cardio-Before-Strength-Training.htm

    That was only one study that showed that effect --- increased EPOC when cardio is done before strength training. With a sample size of 10 people. That's not very reliable.

    A very recent study was done on the same question and presented a literature review in which I believe the study you reference was the only one that has showed that effect--and the more recent study could not replicate it.

    I wish it were true, because it's fun to watch people's heads explode, but the support is not strong.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    So, just trying to understand all this.......the last week I have been running at around 5mph and then lifting 2 exercises (6 sets total) for 1 body part. Then I head back to the treadmill to run again.

    I do this for my entire upper body and then lower body on another day.

    I had to change my routine up alot as for the most part all I was doing was cardio and really light weights during aerobic classes at the YMCA.

    It must have worked as I dropped 2lbs in one week. The biggest drop I've seen yet. My appetite was WAY up as well.

    My question is this, should I be doing this, or should I just do all my cardio at the end?

    There is no one routine that is perfect for everyone, and no one routine that will be perfect at all times for the same individual. Sometimes you see results from doing something different, not necessarily because the new routine is better than the old one, but because it is different.

    That having been said, alternating brief intervals of cardio and strength is something that has been studied and it has been shown to have positive results--esp with newer exercisers.
  • iWaffle
    iWaffle Posts: 2,208 Member
    It must have worked as I dropped 2lbs in one week. The biggest drop I've seen yet. My appetite was WAY up as well.

    My question is this, should I be doing this, or should I just do all my cardio at the end?

    There are two slightly different conflicts of interest here. One is what is the optimal best thing to do for your body? What will squeeze out the last drop of fat? The other issue is what exercise do you enjoy and will stay committed to and seems to really work well for you?

    In my opinion what you're doing might not be the most optimal thing but it seems to really be working for you and I don't see any obvious flaw in the routine. If it ain't broke don't fix it right? If you enjoy this workout and it's working then don't change it. Not sure how close the cardio and weights are but if that's not a big deal for you then carry on.
    Nicely said. Just look at your viens when you do strength training. They're popped out like crazy and that doesn't happen when I do cardio. It's got to be an increase in blood pressure to do that.
  • 19kat55
    19kat55 Posts: 336 Member
    Not sure the concept is correct, but we may be talking about separate issues.

    Here is the explanation:

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
    [/quote]

    Excellent! Thank you so much for this detailed understandable explanation. I now know not to eat back any perceived calories burned with strength training! I appreciate it!
  • OnionMomma
    OnionMomma Posts: 938 Member
    So, just trying to understand all this.......the last week I have been running at around 5mph and then lifting 2 exercises (6 sets total) for 1 body part. Then I head back to the treadmill to run again.

    I do this for my entire upper body and then lower body on another day.

    I had to change my routine up alot as for the most part all I was doing was cardio and really light weights during aerobic classes at the YMCA.

    It must have worked as I dropped 2lbs in one week. The biggest drop I've seen yet. My appetite was WAY up as well.

    My question is this, should I be doing this, or should I just do all my cardio at the end?

    There is no one routine that is perfect for everyone, and no one routine that will be perfect at all times for the same individual. Sometimes you see results from doing something different, not necessarily because the new routine is better than the old one, but because it is different.

    That having been said, alternating brief intervals of cardio and strength is something that has been studied and it has been shown to have positive results--esp with newer exercisers.

    Thanks, it seems to be working for me for now. I was at a stall for a long time doing lots and lots of aerobic classes and not seeing any weight loss at all. This seems to have made a huge difference this last week.

    It certainly makes me sweat that's for sure. :wink:

    My foot can't take running for extended amounts of time. But in these 5 min burst for a total of 35 mins combined seems to be doing the trick.
  • pitbullmama
    pitbullmama Posts: 454 Member
    bump
  • shaycat
    shaycat Posts: 980
    No wonder I cant lose any weight. I will stop wearing my HRM while lifting and only eat back my cardio exercise calories.
  • liseriehle
    liseriehle Posts: 3 Member
    My trainer always had me do 15-20 min on the treadmill before circuit training as well-it did burn more calories.
  • I read that if you do it on the end of your work out, its a 40% extra calorie burn.
  • ChrisGoldn
    ChrisGoldn Posts: 473 Member
    No. Your HRM doesn't know what you are doing when you lift, so it's just plain wrong. You cannot use an HRM for lifting. It will always be wrong.


    Would you explain this please? If it is keeping track of your heart rate, why is it not accurate?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_striated_muscle

    Type II fibers don't use oxygen to do work. Your heart beats faster because of increased oxygen demand on your body. Thats why it's somewhat accurate when used to calculate calories burned. x amount of beats and y amount of oxygen per beat = z amount of calories burned. Since Type II fibres are anaerobic, no oxygen means no accurate measure of calories burned.

    for strength training, as a general rule, the more intense your lift, regardless of heartrate, the more calories burned. Meaning it could be anywhere from not much, up to into the stratosphere for an hour of lifting.

    Hope everyone realizes that anyone can write or edit wikipedia pages. And Many of them have misinformation on them. Be cautious of that.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Cardio warm-up before strength is correct. I suggest no more than 10 minutes to get warmed up.

    However to burn the most amount of bodyfat, irregardless of what your heart rate monitor says, you need to understand how your energy systems work. Weight training, anaerobic activity should be done before cardio. Simply put, weight training drains your muscles glycogen stores (your bodies primary fuel source), and when followed up by cardio, your body then fuels the activity by burning your bodyfat.

    An ideal session would include 10 - 15 minutes of stretching and cardio.
    45 - 60 minutes weights.
    15 - 20 minutes cardio.

    Never exeed 90 minutes in one session.

    Hope that anwers your question....and if you really want results, ask me about epoc. (exercise post oxygen consumption)

    Excellent information. Burn off the sugars first, then the body is more inclined to metabolized fat for fuel.

    That would all be well and good if it made any difference. But it doesn't. The fuel you burn during exercise has no effect on body fat. Even if you burn more fat during exercise, a) it's a miniscule amount to begin with and b) the body burns less fat the rest of the day, so that at the end of 24 hrs there is no difference, either in total fat oxidized or RQ.

    So then, going back to the original question, is there any benefit to doing cardio after strength training beyond just the calories you burn doing it? Does it have any effect on EPOC either way? Or is it just as well to not do any cardio on weight training days beyond warmup? FTR, I rarely do cardio after weight training. When I've tried, I just have little left in the tank and the cardio session is pretty mediocre. I do a 10 minute cardio warm up and then a full 3x5 based on Starting Strength. Maybe it's my age at 61 but I have little left at the end as I push myself pretty hard on the weight training.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    bump hoping for an answer.
  • kierstin1976
    kierstin1976 Posts: 123 Member
    I prefer to strength train before cardio. When I did it the other way around I would get fatigued quicker. I want to focus all my energy on strength training. I have always been told to do cardio last.
  • tammyandzach
    tammyandzach Posts: 922 Member
    Cardio warm-up before strength is correct. I suggest no more than 10 minutes to get warmed up.

    However to burn the most amount of bodyfat, irregardless of what your heart rate monitor says, you need to understand how your energy systems work. Weight training, anaerobic activity should be done before cardio. Simply put, weight training drains your muscles glycogen stores (your bodies primary fuel source), and when followed up by cardio, your body then fuels the activity by burning your bodyfat.

    An ideal session would include 10 - 15 minutes of stretching and cardio.
    45 - 60 minutes weights.
    15 - 20 minutes cardio.

    Never exeed 90 minutes in one session.

    Hope that anwers your question....and if you really want results, ask me about epoc. (exercise post oxygen consumption)

    Ok tell me about epoc.